rembart8

My name is Robert and being new to the site, hope you will be patient as I bombard you all with questions.
I will be traveling to Europe this coming fall on my Gap Year! Yes, it is exciting, however my initial planning has hit a standstill. My consultation with a close friend brought me to Fodor's, and his gushing recommendation left me with high expectations! Enough background, I have two months in europe and both specific and broad areas of interest I would like to experience. My hope, though slightly presumptuous, is that the kind forum posters of Fodor's (whose expertise is rumored to be unrivaled) can help me in fashioning a preliminary itinerary.

I am I lover of history and enjoy discovering an ancient church in Rome as I do sipping lemonade on the Amalfi Coast. I find myself being vague already, but I am a very easygoing person and am merely looking for an enjoyable time in some fascinating countries.

Now to my restriction (if you can label it that way)-
- Italy, as you may have gathered, is an absolute must. Such a blend of good food, nice people, and fascinating history cannot be overlooked.
Other than that, I am extremely easy. Nothing has been booked (as of yet) and my budget is not a large issue.

What I would really appreciate, however, is your opinion on a variety of countries, cities, and areas that personally I have no experience with. Of course I have read various guide books and informative websites, so I do posses some preconceived notions. Despite this fact, i want to know what is a "must" and what is "not vital". There is a lot of time, but there is also a lot of places and I want to pick those that coincide with my interests and provide me with the best experience possible.

Portugal- I have some heritage to the Azores, but not to Portugal itself, is it a country you recommend?

Spain- I am quite proficient in Spanish and feel comfortable with the language barrier here. I do believe that this is a country that I would definitely want to visit. However, do you suggest any other cities than Barcelona, Madrid, and Seville? What is your opinion on Cordoba?

Italy- I already mentioned it above, and have researched it quite extensively. My cities/towns of choice would be (in order):
Venice (day trip to Verona)
Cinque Terre
Florence
Tuscany (Siena, Lucca, Montepulciano)
Rome

Greece- I have next to no knowledge regarding Greece. Would you suggest the classic tour of the Greek Islands (Santorini, etc)

France- I have been to Paris before and was enchanted, though the rest of France remains a mystery. Opinions of Nice?

Other countries: Other than those four, I have considered heading over to Vienna (it has stellar reviews, and I'm a sucker for classical music).

Please let me know your opinions on these countries/places and if there are any others that you fell in love with.

Thanks so much,
Robert

Michael

How do you plan to travel? Are you traveling by yourself? Are you old enough to rent a car? What's your budget? What have you already gleaned more specifically from the guidebooks?

thursdaysd

If this is a gap year, have you looked at http://www.lonelyplanet.com/thorntre...spa?forumID=58

Dayle

Hi Robert! Welcome to Fodor's. You will get lots of advice and many varied opinions here - that is for sure.

Michael's basic questions above are the start.

Next, I would suggest that you decide which countries are your priorities for your first trip. Even with a wonderful 2 months, you can't do all you listed above!

You could approach this trip as a "sampler" and whiz through as many destinations as humanly possible - knowing that you are young and will return to areas that capture your interest and your heart (Italy in my case) in the future for a more in depth visit.

Or, you could go with the idea of visiting 2 or 3 countries at a slower, more exploratory pace. Personally, I feel you get more for your money with this mode of travel, because you are not spending as much money and time GETTING somewhere rather than BEING somewhere.....

With 2 months, you can easily go into museum/church overload. In just the few trips I've had, I have discovered I like a mixture of cities and countryside. I love the "big 3" in Italy and am a farily ambitious sightseer - start early, end late, plan it out, but stay flexible.

However, I have also learned the pure joy of La dolce far niente! Driving around the countryside, stopping for photo ops where you choose, exploring a tiny hilltown you have passed and never hear of before! Sitting in an ancient piazza for a long, late lunch with the local specialty wine and chatting with a friendly local resident or fellow traveler...

For the Italian destinations you mention, I would recommend a bare minimum of 3 weeks (4 would be much better), so you see how fast your 2 months will go!

Italy and France would be a fabulous 2 month trip. Or, you could do Spain-southern France-Italy if you are willing to limit your time in each place.

It's your trip, your interests, you must make the final decision on destination priorities. The planning and anticipation is half the fun.

Buon viaggio!

zeppole

Hi,

My own belief is that it is extremely difficult to understand what Europe is -- why it is the way it is and why it isn't like India, China or America -- unless you go to Greece, which means going to Athens but it also means spending enough time in the non-touristy part of Greece (which can be found in Athens) so that you also get some grasp of today's situation in Greece with regard to the rest of Europe and the euro-zone.

Once you have seen Greece, Italy is much more interesting -- in particular Byzantine Venice, Renaissance Florence, Republican and ultimately Papal Rome and the former greek colonies of Naples/Pompei. Vienna will mean a great deal more to you once you have seen Greece.

I also think it is important if you want to understand Europe to visit Cordoba and Toledo in Spain, as well as Granada, because it is there you will see the historic relationship between the Islamic world and Europe (and Judaism as well). If you must go to Barcelona, be sure to invest some time in understanding Catalonia, which was a Mediterranean culture with ties to Greece and Italy.

Marseilles is more interesting than Nice, le Cinque Terre is not really worth your precious time, Tuscany is better if you have a car or a retiree or both.

I am a big believer in seeing where one's ancestors came from and I hear the Azores is quite beautiful. But it sounds pricey to get there.

If you can do without revisiting Paris and were to add anything to your trip, I would recommend the two great port empires of Lisbon and Amstedam, and Berlin -- all of them now very interesting places for young people -- but two months is shorter than you think.

zeppole

9 days Greece (Athens + Greek islands)
14 days Italy --
3 days Marseilles
14 days Spain --
3 days Lisbon
3 days Azores
3 days Amsterdam
5 days Berlin
4 days Vienna

something like that

PRLCH

Re Spain - you asked about Cordoba. We loved it - thought it was the highlight of Spain. You can do this as a day trip from Seville.

mariha2912

When exactly is "fall"? If it is later than 1rst week of October, I would forget about Greek islands. And by the way, Greece is not only Athens+islands-what "classical tour of islands" mean by the way?Please clarify.

clausar

zeppole
i am trying to understand what you wrote about Greece , but i can't, and i hope you will clarify the following:


<< unless you go to Greece, which means going to Athens but it also means spending enough time in the non-touristy part of Greece (which can be found in Athens) >>
I am sorry, but what do you mean exactly?

<< Once you have seen Greece, Italy is much more interesting -- in particular Byzantine Venice>>

Of course there is a link between the Byzantium and Venice, but Venice is very far away from being a Byzantine city....

<<Vienna will mean a great deal more to you once you have seen Greece>>
once again, can you explain please what the link is between Vienna and Greece?

Thank you

zeppole

hi clausar,

I meant that many tourists who go to Greece come with a list of 5* star famous sights and only "hit" the sights without seeing anything in between. In between walking around the Acropolis or watching the sunset in Santorini, they are in a taxi or on a plane or eating in a touristy restaurant only three steps away from "the sights."

But there is an interesting life to Greece that isn't only the tourist sights, and you don't have to go way out of your way to experience it as a visitor. You can just walk around some of the newer neighborhoods and sit down a cafe, go into a bookstore, see a concert, etc.

As for Venice, of course it is far away from being a Byzantine city but it is also far away from being a Roman city, and there is much historic greek influence starting in Venice and moving toward Trieste (it even starts in Ferrara) that is interesting to come across in Venice, and it pops out at you if you have already been to Greece.

The neo-classical state architecture of Vienna is a love of ancient Athens gone wild.

http://www.altavaltrebbia.net/v/english/english.html

http://ysfine.com/world/germany/vienna10.jpg

Greek culture was a hobby and scholarly preoccupation of the viennese Imperial family in the 19th century

zeppole

Oh sorry! I put in the wrong link, clusar. Forgive the link to the alta trebbia.

I meant to give you this link

http://phototravels.net/vienna/vienn...nna-v-046.html

Also, if I were to amend my remarks to Robert about why Italy is more interesting after one has seen classical Greece, I would say that in particular Renaissance Italy plus byzantine Venice (and one could add Ravenna) acquires more meaning having seen Greece. You see the spread of culture and the revitalization and extension of Greek idea, plus get a glimpse of the split between the Papacy and the East.

clausar

zeppole
these are excellent points,most tourists usually have no clue about Byzantium, and how it affected Italy.
Venice had a strong byzantine influence, even had the privilege of a special status from the Byzantine Emperors.
After the fall of the Byzantium, big parts of Greece stayed under the authority of the Venetians, and this can be seen everywhere in Greece, from Corfu to Crete...

My family comes from Corfu, Trieste and Vienna, with the the last two cities having a strong Greek community dating back to
the Austro-hungarian Monarchy.
Many rich members of the the Greek community of Vienna financed many important public buildings of the city such as the Musikverein, where a major donor was the Greek Nikolaos Dumbas. The Austrian government gave to one of the streets of the Musikverein the name Dumbastrasse. Also the architect of the Musikverein was danish Theofil Hansen, responsible also for many public buildings in both Vienna and Athens.

These are mazing points of history, that are not known, and unfortunately not mentioned in most guidebooks......

PalenQ

marking for later comment

zeppole

clausar, yes, Greece is the shining inspiration and fountain of art and culture (and food!) for Europe over and over again, and ultimately for the political creation of America too, and it still is for people who go to see it today. Never has there been a more human and amazing culture.

thursdaysd

If you mean never has been there been a more <i>humane</i> culture I beg to differ. No slave society can be considered truly humane, and I doubt most people would consider the austere and militarized system of Sparta humane, either.

PalenQ

If going by rail then check out these fine fine sites on European trains (and railpasses that you may want to check out too if doing extensive traveling like you indicate) - www.ricksteves.com; www.seat61.com; www.budgeteuropetravel.com - the latter lets you download free their superb IMO European Planning & Rail Guide that is a great itinerary planner by rail in each country - suggested itins, maps, etc - at:
(http://www.budgeteuropetravel.com/si...s/rg011210.pdf

PalenQ

Yup Greeks look so humane in news footage of frequent violent riots against police in recent months and the series of debilitating strikes, etc.

clausar

Yes strikes in Greece should be forbidden...
Greeks should be put in jail , for all these riots against the police....

zeppole

thursdaysd,

No, I meant what I wrote. Human, not humane. Greek culture had a greater understanding of what human nature really is, and its potential in every direction, than any other culture. That included an understanding of the potential for cruelty as well as affection, philosophy, creativity, social cohesion, the whole complexity of it. I didn't say it was humane. I said it was human, which includes being self-aware as one of the highest of human potentialities.

PalenQ.

You think as long as bankers starve families with a smile it is moral? That no rebellion as an ethical dimension? You disapprove of the American revolution? The French revolution? The Warsaw ghetto? No, what you disapprove of is an interruption of your tourist trip.

clausar,

I wanted to add that a visit to Greece makes other parts of Italy -- like Naples and Sicily -- more understandable, and even the Italian Riviera wouldn't have its oilve oil and basil pesto had not the Greeks brought them here. There are beautiful remnants of Greek settlements near Barcelona, and Greek olives there too.

Greece: The Indispensable Country.

I forget to

thursdaysd

Nothing particularly human about basing your economy on slave labor, either.

Not that I'm dissing Greece as a destination - but don't miss Crete and the Minoans. Of course, ideally you'd start in Mesopotamia, but not such a safe destination right now.