lamogood

I have read in my Turkish guidebooks that mosques hold five services each day. I also know that I can find out the start times of these services from a newspaper. My questions are:
1) When do I need to leave the mosque prior to a service? Does 30 minutes before a service seem appropriate? Or should I leave as soon as I see people in the area reserved for worshippers?
2) So that I know when I can return to the mosque, how long does a service generally last (not the big Friday mid-day service, but one of the others)?

elaine

there is very useful information at www.turkeytravelplanner.com

In my experience, when it is time to exit, the mosque's guards/caretakers will not hesitate to tell people to leave.
Calls to prayer and services begin according to positions of the sun; services don't generally last too long (that is, the time when non-worshippers may not visit) because most worshippers have to return to work if it's daytime. As in any house of worship, some worshippers may come in late, or stay longer, but visitors will still be allowed back in.

otherchelebi

There is no specific ban for visiting a mosque during prayers, except possibly for Friday noon prayers because that one also has a sermon and is considered to be the most important one, thus drawing the largest crowds.

It would be impolite to flock into a mosque during prayers, but if you visit some of the not so touristy mosques during prayer times no one will stop you.

Some important info:
- you should not enter a mosque barefoot, so if you are wearing sandals, you should put on socks when you remove them to enter a mosque. it would show even more respect and be a good example if you carried some disposable galoshes of the type used in entering hygienic areas, and put them on at entering the mosque. (May also be a good idea to carry your shoes in a bag with you as it shoes have been stolen though seldom.)
- there are no specially designated prayer areas in a mosque. Almost the whole floor is covered with carpets (used to be usually Turkish hand made) and except for the few portions of the prayers when the devout has to follow the imam, people can pray at any part of the mosque, as long a they face the correct direction.
- men and women have separate sections where they pray.

- If you are female, you should restrict your mosque visit to only the women's sections during prayers. (usually at the back or at a gallery), and if you are male, you should not saunter along in the women's sections.

- Also do not take photographs during prayers unless your camera is absolutely quiet and you do not use a flash.

elaine

I can't speak to an official ban or not, but I know that I was politely but firmly ushered out of two mosques as prayer time approached; one time I was with a (discreet) local guide, one time on my own.
On another occasion, I entered a mosque, in the main (men's) area without challenge, though there were some worshippers still in one section.

Jedmo68631

they will get you out when it is time.

yorkshire

otherchelebi, I never heard that before about not entering barefoot. I did research hand carried my own scarf, but I did not even think about my feet not being clean after I removed my sandals. oops! I think I sometimes slipped on socks if I was going to walk on floor and not carpet.

lamogood, you will know, just observe the people. At the major mosques it is quite evident. I highly recommend seeking out smaller mosques to visit as well.

otherchelebi

I love it when people can generalize from one or two isolated experiences, and then get upset if someone says different, even if (in this case) that someone is supposedly a moslem, who could have spent fifty years praying in and visiting mosques in istanbul, a former Destination Expert on trip Advisor, a youth tourist guide fifty years ago, and a student of comparative religion (and non-religion, as the case may be sometimes) as well as a vocal critic of the Turkish government control over religious affairs.

Elaine, if you had immediately moved to the women's area when you heard the call to prayer (attired properly) and sat down in a Yoga position and your 'discreet' guide, if male, stayed in the general area, no one would have ushered either of you out.

However, one of the flock could have felt personally affronted by your appearance, demeanor, actions, or whatever and could have asked you to leave.

And, of'course, all groups of tourists walking about and gazing at the dome or the walls would be asked to leave because they could interfere with the concentration of the ones who are praying or interfere in other ways.

Even then, if the tourist group sort of sat silently (men and women in their respective areas) at the back of a not so full mosque during the whole prayers and did nothng but squirmed and watched, no one would say anything. In fact, they may even look at it in a very friendly way, hoping that Islam may be getting some new converts.

All of the above apply to the prayers conducted by the Imam. Once people start praying on their own, and especially if they get up to find more private areas for themselves, then the spectators may actually get up and move along the back and walls, as long as they do not step on or walk in front of the praying people, and are still silent.

otherchelebi

Yorkshire,

you should not enter barefoot because the devout will be pressing their forehead and faces on the ground where you are putting your at best dusty feet covered with the detritus of whatever areas you walked at before you came to the mosque.

so, if i were a tourist, i would feel terrible about entering a carpeted area where people put their faces to the ground with bare or stockinged feet which has been in open sandals, walking on dirty streets all day or out of especially converse or sketchers type sneakers in the heat of the summer.

What i am saying has nothing to do with respect to a religion, but with respect to a fellow human and because of hygiene.

otherchelebi

One other note:

You may see some praying people barefoot. These would have washed their feet just before entering the mosque at the ablution fountains.

And to tell you the truth i personally find the whole idea of putting your face so close to the carpets very unhygienic to say the least.

otherchelebi

Had forgotten the other question.

Most prayers take about 15-20 minutes, the dawn and dusk ones being the shortest and the night one possibly 30 minutes.

The part where everyone sits tightly together and follows the imam is at most four kneel downs. however the facultative part may be before or after the compulsory part. So you could have four free first but in reasonablely close lines and then the tight formation. or you could have the tight formation first followed by the facultative part.

Stressing again, your sign as to whether you should leave the mosque or sit quietly back is the Ezan, which is the 'call to prayer' which comes through the loudspeakers and impossible to miss.

yorkshire

Yes, given that I knew about the feet washing of the devout I don't know why it did not occur to me. Fortunately it was cold when I was there so I mostly had on shoes with socks.

As I was leaving a mosque in Cappadocia, I was quite fortunate to be putting on my shoes to leave in the hallway as the Ezan gave his call. It was beautiful to behold.

elaine

otherchelbi, I felt i was very clear about speaking only to my own experience, and was not generalizing in any way as to hypothetically what might have happened if I'd wanted to stay to pray in a mosque that I did not visit.

I mentioned two occasions in which my visit intersected with prayer times (prayer services being the crux of the original question) , but I have visited a number of mosques in Turkey (and in Morocco). For every mosque visit I have made as a tourist, I was modestly dressed, I put my shoes in plastic bags or removed them as requested, and I wore a head scarf that I had purposely brought with me. It was however not hard to assume by my appearance and tourist accoutrements that I was not someone staying for prayer, nor did I ask to do so. Please don't generalize as to my particular experiences which you did not observe. I would not presume to speak of all mosque experiences, but then again, you can't speak to mine. Thanks

otherchelebi

Elaine, it must be my very poor command of English. I just do not understand the relevance of what you wrote above to my posts.

I appreciate your sharing of your experiences, which you did very well in your trip report.

But here you give advice by generalizing on your experience and you give wrong imformation. this is not your trip report, so unless you are certain of your facts as applying in general, you should not put it in those terms.

This is what you wrote:
"...services generally do not last too long (that is, the time when worshippers may not visit)....." with no qualifying phrase like 'i think', 'i have read', 'I heard', 'I believe' etc.

Making up positions like 'mosque guards', or 'caretaker' asking people to leave is nonsense. Mosques do not have guards just as temples, churches do not have them, unless there is a specific threat to a certain location, in which case it would be the police who would have no authority over tourists except for security reasons.

Not only have i visited churches in the US but have given over ten speeches at evening gatherings. have also visited churches and cathedrals in Spain, Italy, france, Britain, Austria, and temples in Thailand and Japan, and never felt that i was knowledgeable enough to respond to questions on the workings of those houses of worship.

AND, there are no "services" in a mosque. there are prayers.

The fact that you should sit down when prayers are going on does not imply that you would be praying with everyone else, but that you wopuld be respecting the worshippers in a mosque by not disturbing their peace.

On second thought, maybe it is not my English, but your English that has caused some of these misunderstandings.

elaine

When I have visted mosques, they have been visited at the same time by other tourists.I was there only as a tourist. Sometimes there was only one other tourist, in a small mosque. Sometimes hundreds of tourists in a large one. In some cases there has been a lone caretaker/guardian/janitor/ volunteer/guard in whatever capacity he was acting in (I did not question his credentials nor ask for his title); in larger places there have been many men both at the doorways and inside, performing official tasks such as: moving a line of visitors along; directing people to cover up or put on headscarves or remove shoes or cover shoes in plastic; asking entrants to lower their voices;,requiring people to walk in that doorway or exit that other doorway. You are right in that I could have added, with regard to how long services last, that is what I was told by the caretakers/guards/helpers/officials, at the time. Indeed I did not experience it myself nor set a timer as to how long it took before worshippers emerged. However, what I have experienced and reported, when I have visited the particular mosques I have visited, as a tourist in Turkey, I have reported as specifically, personally, and accurately as I can. I am not a regular worshipper at Westminster Abbey either, but can report on what it's like to visit there, on what the visiting procedures were and yes, what happens when prayers begin. Being a tourist in a house of worship is not the same experience or set of rules as being a worshipper. Also, houses of worship that attract a lot of tourists could, I imagine, have different procedures than a neighborhood house of worship tucked away somewhere off the track, where tourists are unknown.
I see no reason for further nitpicking or interchange on this subject.

otherchelebi

Funny. why did you write the last post then?