Thoughts on the Paris Riots
Nov 8th, 2005, 08:32 AM
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Thoughts on the Paris Riots
I am a francophile having traveled to France, and often to Paris, over the last thirteen years.
I agree that people on the ground have the best knowledge of what is going on. The media tends to exaggerate and distort events like these. Stating that,however, if the number of cars destroyed is even remotely close to estimates this is not a problem that the traveller can easily ignore. We are suspending our travel to Paris for the foreseeable future.
The problems in France are many. Neither side comes with clean hands. The French government, for example, had every right to demand that students adhere to a dress code. Look at so many American city schools with clowns in baggy pants and sideways baseball caps marching around.
The Muslim minority, however, must decide if they want to become Frenchmen. You can dress the way you wish at home but civil society has reasonable rights and demands as well.
The other side of the coin is that there is racism in France, e.g. Le Pen. This must be addressed with more than band-aids of "more scholarship money', "quicker availability of low income housing".
Liberals like to offer "more talk" as the solution to almost every problem. In this sad case they are right. First, France most examine its conscience on how it treats its minority population and the Muslim community must come to grips as to whether or not it wishes to assimilate in to French society. Things really can not go on like this.
Anthony
I agree that people on the ground have the best knowledge of what is going on. The media tends to exaggerate and distort events like these. Stating that,however, if the number of cars destroyed is even remotely close to estimates this is not a problem that the traveller can easily ignore. We are suspending our travel to Paris for the foreseeable future.
The problems in France are many. Neither side comes with clean hands. The French government, for example, had every right to demand that students adhere to a dress code. Look at so many American city schools with clowns in baggy pants and sideways baseball caps marching around.
The Muslim minority, however, must decide if they want to become Frenchmen. You can dress the way you wish at home but civil society has reasonable rights and demands as well.
The other side of the coin is that there is racism in France, e.g. Le Pen. This must be addressed with more than band-aids of "more scholarship money', "quicker availability of low income housing".
Liberals like to offer "more talk" as the solution to almost every problem. In this sad case they are right. First, France most examine its conscience on how it treats its minority population and the Muslim community must come to grips as to whether or not it wishes to assimilate in to French society. Things really can not go on like this.
Anthony
Nov 8th, 2005, 08:44 AM
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Powell, good points. I agree but.... what if a large percentage of the rioters DON'T want to assimilate in to French society? That will spell big trouble in the future.
I just don't see how the french can create so many new jobs. Giving more welfare only prolongs the pain.
I just don't see how the french can create so many new jobs. Giving more welfare only prolongs the pain.
Nov 8th, 2005, 08:59 AM
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Really I am wondering why they need so many immigrants when their unemployment rate is so high. Now the violence has spread, I read, to over 300 towns/cities and has somewhat lessened in the Paris area.
Nov 8th, 2005, 09:19 AM
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To clarify, the unemployment rate is 10% across-the-board, and 30-50% among minority communities. Yes, 30-50%.
(In addition, France has a meagher <i>per capita</i> GDP.)
From today's New York Post:
<b>"FRANCE has cancer and insists it's just a rash. After two weeks of expanding immigrant violence, the government's inept response has turned a local riot into a nationwide insurrection.
French abuse of Arab and African minorities — mostly Muslims — made it only a matter of time before the country's prison-like ghettos exploded. If your skin is brown or black in la belle France, you haven't got a chance at a decent life."</b>
(In addition, France has a meagher <i>per capita</i> GDP.)
From today's New York Post:
<b>"FRANCE has cancer and insists it's just a rash. After two weeks of expanding immigrant violence, the government's inept response has turned a local riot into a nationwide insurrection.
French abuse of Arab and African minorities — mostly Muslims — made it only a matter of time before the country's prison-like ghettos exploded. If your skin is brown or black in la belle France, you haven't got a chance at a decent life."</b>
Nov 8th, 2005, 09:23 AM
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I believe it is not the immigrants who are rioting, but primarily the French-born children of those immigrants. They presumably do not feel any sense of gratitude for being allowed to immigrate, while they do feel all the resentments of the chronic ills of a barely assimilated underclass.
France does have a tendency to ignore these ills until the pot boils over, if you will recall your history lessons. It's a rather nasty situation and I can't help but wonder how it will play out, especially in the current atmosphere of global terrorism.
I am being neither politically incorrect nor bigoted when I state that the rioters are overwhelmingly Moslem. How much of a leap is it from the mob to the terror cell? That question must be going through the mind of more than one French official.
France does have a tendency to ignore these ills until the pot boils over, if you will recall your history lessons. It's a rather nasty situation and I can't help but wonder how it will play out, especially in the current atmosphere of global terrorism.
I am being neither politically incorrect nor bigoted when I state that the rioters are overwhelmingly Moslem. How much of a leap is it from the mob to the terror cell? That question must be going through the mind of more than one French official.
Nov 8th, 2005, 09:28 AM
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Marilyn, that frightening scenario was addressed in this morning's news here in New York:
<b>"Desperate apologists for France's apartheid system claim that the present uproar is merely about youthful anger, that Muslim fundamentalism isn't in play. Just wait. Islamist extremists aren't stupid. Thrilled by this spontaneous uprising, they'll move to exploit the fervor of the young to serve their own ends.
Expect terror. Whether the current violence ebbs tonight or lasts for weeks to come, the uprising of the excluded and oppressed in the streets of France has only begun."</b>
Let's hope & pray the writer is wrong.
<b>"Desperate apologists for France's apartheid system claim that the present uproar is merely about youthful anger, that Muslim fundamentalism isn't in play. Just wait. Islamist extremists aren't stupid. Thrilled by this spontaneous uprising, they'll move to exploit the fervor of the young to serve their own ends.
Expect terror. Whether the current violence ebbs tonight or lasts for weeks to come, the uprising of the excluded and oppressed in the streets of France has only begun."</b>
Let's hope & pray the writer is wrong.
Nov 8th, 2005, 10:47 AM
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As I mentioned in another post:
Gee, does no one remember the craziness in Paris (Paris proper -- not suburbs) during 1986? The bombs in the shopping arcades on the Champs Elysees, the bomb threats everywhere?? I lived there during that time and I remember not being able (for fear) to go to the movies or shopping or anywhere there would or might be a crowd. To me, that seemed MUCH more intense (maybe because I was living there) than what is going on now. Granted this is very widespread, but it is certainly not the first nor will it be the last time issues such as these will be faced in European cities.
Gee, does no one remember the craziness in Paris (Paris proper -- not suburbs) during 1986? The bombs in the shopping arcades on the Champs Elysees, the bomb threats everywhere?? I lived there during that time and I remember not being able (for fear) to go to the movies or shopping or anywhere there would or might be a crowd. To me, that seemed MUCH more intense (maybe because I was living there) than what is going on now. Granted this is very widespread, but it is certainly not the first nor will it be the last time issues such as these will be faced in European cities.
Nov 8th, 2005, 11:19 AM
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WHAT ARE YOU SAYING? For years France in particular and all of western Europe in general have been doing their collective best to tell us that it is America that is the seat of racism and intolerance. I am so disillusioned! My French friends have for years told me how near to perfection their system of virtually unchecked immigration was working, how the Muslims have been so well assimilated into French society and all the rest. They have told me repeatedly how the world looks down on the way Americans treat “our” minorities, how we should have an “open” border, how we are such zealots and xenophobes.
Yet again the chickens have come home to roost.
Yet again the chickens have come home to roost.
Nov 8th, 2005, 11:24 AM
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As someone who first traveled in Europe as a student in the late '60's, I had to answer more than the occasional question about American racism. So the irony of the current situation does not escape me.
Nov 8th, 2005, 11:51 AM
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This car burning is just a French government scheme to prop up the failing French auto industry.
Seriously, near my home we have some Amish communities, and they face much the same pressures cited by the rioters, as their young people are torn between the strict ways of their own culture, and the looser ways of the surrounding cultures. The young Amish are identifiable on sight, so they stand out in the surrounding communities. Yet because of the strength of their own communities, and there reputation as diligent workers, they don't fall into the welfare system that many rioters do.
I'm not saying that any group of people is inherently incapable of success, but when a whole community insists on a separate identity, refuses to adopt the ways of the larger community, and falls into the welfare trap, rather than creating their own economic niche, it is very unlikely that they will ever enjoy economic success, and racism is hardly the root cause of their problems.
Seriously, near my home we have some Amish communities, and they face much the same pressures cited by the rioters, as their young people are torn between the strict ways of their own culture, and the looser ways of the surrounding cultures. The young Amish are identifiable on sight, so they stand out in the surrounding communities. Yet because of the strength of their own communities, and there reputation as diligent workers, they don't fall into the welfare system that many rioters do.
I'm not saying that any group of people is inherently incapable of success, but when a whole community insists on a separate identity, refuses to adopt the ways of the larger community, and falls into the welfare trap, rather than creating their own economic niche, it is very unlikely that they will ever enjoy economic success, and racism is hardly the root cause of their problems.
Nov 8th, 2005, 12:11 PM
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Socialism does not do well with immigration, high rates or otherwise, especially with a 1-1/2% GNP growth. France barely made 1-1/2% last year. France can not sustain economic growth or even solvency- if it continues its preferred habit and preference towards majority national/federal based "busy work" jobs over encouragement for individual business and individual business ownership.
This (business/entrepreneurship) is literally killed in France with TERRIBLE regulation for employee hiring and maintenance, and even worse tax structures that DIScourage into oblivion any possible start ups.
That's the biggest problem with Socialism- way beyond the indolence, race, or cultural problems which further ignite the situation.
Too many people at the trough, too few people working to produce what goes into it. Everything becomes "fair" by sharing poverty.
This (business/entrepreneurship) is literally killed in France with TERRIBLE regulation for employee hiring and maintenance, and even worse tax structures that DIScourage into oblivion any possible start ups.
That's the biggest problem with Socialism- way beyond the indolence, race, or cultural problems which further ignite the situation.
Too many people at the trough, too few people working to produce what goes into it. Everything becomes "fair" by sharing poverty.
Nov 8th, 2005, 12:31 PM
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I think its a pretty big leap Marilyn if you don't mind me saying. These ills have been going on for decades and are connected with French domestic policy. I read something this morning with James Zogby from the Arab institute ( one of the big boys on understanding Arabs here and abroad). Arab Americans here are far more accepted than they are in French society. France places a greater expectation on foreign nationals to reject their cultural backgrounds to be citizens. We don't ask that here, you melt in a pot but you are allowed to keep your own flavor. Most of us want you to keep your own flavor so we can eat at your restaurant 
.
Seriously though Zogby said, even though Arabs here have faced some tough times since 9/11 in the U.S they just are not excluded from the economy here the way they are in France. Zogby pointed out that Arabs in the U.S exceed national averages on income. I thought he said by about 5%.
Myself not at all an authority here but this is something that has peaked my interest since the 1980's. I remember murders of Arabs by the police in Paris then that went uninvestigated. according to BBC documentaries I watched at the time.
THE IRONY HAS NEVER BEEN LOST ON ME EITHER. LOL.
from what I read just this morning French born Arabs...note, when was the last time someone in the media here was identified as an Irish/Italian American. Maybe when you are talking about ethnic food or national holidays but not when you are talking about American citizens? I am always reading French born Chinese, French born Arabs. Why wouldn't you just say French if someone has been in the country for a few generations? I don't get that.
Zoby also pointed out these rioters are not angry at recent French foreign policy the way those in the terror cells you mention are mad at American foreign policy. That is pretty key to not identifying these groups with terror cells. France has long been a vocal advocate of Palestinians and as you know vocal against war in Iraq blah blah.
Well all of this made sense to me. I will post the article if I can find it. Thought I saw it in expatica which looks like a magazine for foreign nationals living in France.
. Seriously though Zogby said, even though Arabs here have faced some tough times since 9/11 in the U.S they just are not excluded from the economy here the way they are in France. Zogby pointed out that Arabs in the U.S exceed national averages on income. I thought he said by about 5%.
Myself not at all an authority here but this is something that has peaked my interest since the 1980's. I remember murders of Arabs by the police in Paris then that went uninvestigated. according to BBC documentaries I watched at the time.
THE IRONY HAS NEVER BEEN LOST ON ME EITHER. LOL.
from what I read just this morning French born Arabs...note, when was the last time someone in the media here was identified as an Irish/Italian American. Maybe when you are talking about ethnic food or national holidays but not when you are talking about American citizens? I am always reading French born Chinese, French born Arabs. Why wouldn't you just say French if someone has been in the country for a few generations? I don't get that.
Zoby also pointed out these rioters are not angry at recent French foreign policy the way those in the terror cells you mention are mad at American foreign policy. That is pretty key to not identifying these groups with terror cells. France has long been a vocal advocate of Palestinians and as you know vocal against war in Iraq blah blah.
Well all of this made sense to me. I will post the article if I can find it. Thought I saw it in expatica which looks like a magazine for foreign nationals living in France.
Nov 8th, 2005, 12:39 PM
#15
http://www.expatica.com/source/site_...US+than+France
this is what you wer referring to, Sarah
this is what you wer referring to, Sarah
Nov 8th, 2005, 12:40 PM
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Quote from article, "As long as these kids grow up not only in an economic underclass but excluded from being French or Dutch it's problematic," Zogby said. "When people in my community get angry about American foreign policy they get angry as citizens and they fight back as citizens. The process is more open to including them." James Zogby
http://www.expatica.com/source/site_...US+than+France
Zoby bio if you are interested. I have always liked this guy.
http://www.aaiusa.org/zogby/zogby_home.htm
http://www.expatica.com/source/site_...US+than+France
Zoby bio if you are interested. I have always liked this guy.
http://www.aaiusa.org/zogby/zogby_home.htm
Nov 8th, 2005, 01:04 PM
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A good opportunity for right-wing France-bashers to come out of the woodwork, isn't it? I suspect that by JJ5's standards I live in a "socialist" society too.
Anyway, here's my ramble on the subject. Like most of the other posters here I live in a fairly inclusive multicultural society in which immigrants, or at least their children, providing they make the requisite compromises with the dominant Anglo-Celtic culture, are generally seen as, and see themselves as, "Australian".
I wonder whether, in a country whose conception of "Frenchness" seems to be firmly based on (white) French ethnicity, can these children of North African immigrants ever see themselves, and be seen by others, as "French"? Is this sense of alienation destined to continue?
Of course we here have our own problems with a minority - and I stress "minority" - of Middle Eastern Muslim immigrants and their (male) offspring. Unlike our previous waves of immigrants, such as the Vietnamese, many can't or won't make the accommodations necessary, and live in tight communities self-insulated from the life around them. For some, this means a poor education, unemployment and crime.
One prominent Islamic cleric recently announced that as far as he was concerned there are two sets of laws - Australian and Islamic, and that he could not and would not tolerate any other religion. Well, he's now been arrested, along with many others (one of whom opened fire on police), in pre-dawn police raids in Sydney and Melbourne and charged with planning a serious terrorist attack. He's now finding out that as far as the rest of us are concerned there's one set of laws.
It's worth pointing out though that the police action has been supported by many Muslim spokespeople and even a majority of callers to a Sydney Arabic-language radio program. Despite the admitted social problems in some areas, there's no expectation of rioting in the streets.
Which makes me wonder whether the North African experience in France is really uniformly dire, or is the unrest the work of an especially disadvantaged minority?
Anyway, here's my ramble on the subject. Like most of the other posters here I live in a fairly inclusive multicultural society in which immigrants, or at least their children, providing they make the requisite compromises with the dominant Anglo-Celtic culture, are generally seen as, and see themselves as, "Australian".
I wonder whether, in a country whose conception of "Frenchness" seems to be firmly based on (white) French ethnicity, can these children of North African immigrants ever see themselves, and be seen by others, as "French"? Is this sense of alienation destined to continue?
Of course we here have our own problems with a minority - and I stress "minority" - of Middle Eastern Muslim immigrants and their (male) offspring. Unlike our previous waves of immigrants, such as the Vietnamese, many can't or won't make the accommodations necessary, and live in tight communities self-insulated from the life around them. For some, this means a poor education, unemployment and crime.
One prominent Islamic cleric recently announced that as far as he was concerned there are two sets of laws - Australian and Islamic, and that he could not and would not tolerate any other religion. Well, he's now been arrested, along with many others (one of whom opened fire on police), in pre-dawn police raids in Sydney and Melbourne and charged with planning a serious terrorist attack. He's now finding out that as far as the rest of us are concerned there's one set of laws.
It's worth pointing out though that the police action has been supported by many Muslim spokespeople and even a majority of callers to a Sydney Arabic-language radio program. Despite the admitted social problems in some areas, there's no expectation of rioting in the streets.
Which makes me wonder whether the North African experience in France is really uniformly dire, or is the unrest the work of an especially disadvantaged minority?
