Oops. I was adding to ira's post and teacherlady got there first!

Susan M:

You're going to teach English, but don't know the meaning of "disinterested"?

PLEASE don't give up your day job.

Thanks for your concern, Flanneruk, but where I'm from, disinterested means "to regard something with no interest or concern." I think I'll carry on . . .

As I have heard the word used both ways, I thought I would check.

from dictionary.com

Free of bias and self-interest; impartial: “disinterested scientific opinion on fluorides in the water supply” (Ellen R. Shell).

Not interested; indifferent: “supremely disinterested in all efforts to find a peaceful solution” (C.L. Sulzberger).
Having lost interest.

dis·inter·est·ed·ly adv.
dis·inter·est·ed·ness n.
Usage Note: In traditional usage, disinterested can only mean “having no stake in an outcome,” as in Since the judge stands to profit from the sale of the company, she cannot be considered a disinterested party in the dispute. But despite critical disapproval, disinterested has come to be widely used by many educated writers to mean “uninterested” or “having lost interest,” as in Since she discovered skiing, she is disinterested in her schoolwork. Oddly enough, “not interested” is the oldest sense of the word, going back to the 17th century. This sense became outmoded in the 18th century but underwent a revival in the first quarter of the early 20th. Despite its resuscitation, this usage is widely considered an error. In a 1988 survey, 89 percent of the Usage Panel rejected the sentence His unwillingness to give five minutes of his time proves that he is disinterested in finding a solution to the problem. This is not a significantly different proportion from the 93 percent who disapproved of the same usage in 1980.

Bill

> ... disinterested means "to regard something with no interest or concern.<

Despite the general lessening of standards and the proclivity of dictionary editors to refuse to be "proscriptive", that is the definition of 'uninterested'.

"presently' means "soon".

"impact" is a noun.

etc, etc, etc.....

"This is not a significantly different proportion from the 93 percent who disapproved of the same usage in 1980."

Bill, is that "disapproved" as in "did not approve," or "disapproved" as in -- aw, shucks, trying to make a joke here but can't come up with anything!

Anyway, Gambader, sorry to hijack your thread. I'm off to class.

There are many good points made on this thread.

I have a degree in international relations and a degree in secondary education (I was certified to teach 7-12 social studies), but have been home with my children for almost 15 years.

First, isabel's point is very important. During the school year, there is very little flexibility. Yes, you will have off at similar times as your son (ie. Christmas and summer), but even spring breaks vary a lot. It is crowded and busy to travel during school breaks, but all of us with kids deal with the same constraints even if we are not teachers.

It is great that you would like to have time with your son. Just make sure you really want to teach and will love it for the right reasons. It is a rewarding career, but also tough and frustrating at times.

To address one of your comments. Yes, independent school teachers traditionally make less in salary, but there is not always a big difference. At my son's independent school, the teachers are almost at parity with our local public school teachers. With their benefits such as health and continuing ed, they really are not significantly disparate in compensation. In addition, our teachers have a lot more flexibility in their curriculum (are not tied to our state Standards of Learning tests) and can often take advantage of neat programs as well as committed parents. Plus, children of faculty get reduced tuition to attend.

You should teach what you love to an age you love. Personally,I find teenagers much more interesting to teach than elementary, but everyone is different. Teens get a bad rap, but most are great kids...remember it won't be long till your own PK is a teen so don't be scared .

Teaching is a great career, but be honest with yourself and realistic about what is does and does not offer.

Good luck!!

I'm currently on the tenure track myself at a state univ and can second what bob_brown says in his post. Getting these jobs is really, really hard, and many people never get them. It's not the kind of thing you can just stroll into. It took me years to find this one, and when you do get one you have to be prepared to live wherever you can find the job. (In my field, anyway, where jobs are especially scarce.)

The pay is not bad (I'm single so I have no family to support), and my particular field (art history) does mean that travel is part of my research. But as someone else mentioned, there's not a flexibility as to when I can travel (has to be summer), and I sure don't travel glamorously.

I do think that the decision to teach should be driven first and foremost by the DESIRE to teach. It is a lifestyle and a vocation, whether it's elementary school, high school, college, or whatever. It's much more than a 40 hour week during term, and it is an extremely stressful job, not just the teaching itself but the expectations that are placed upon one in the univ environment. You really have to love it. Luckily, I do and am therefore willing to put up with the less-fun parts.

Does your career lend itself well to being a consultant? If you are well-established with a good reputation in your field, you may want to consider consulting or working as an independent contractor. I have taught all levels from kindergarten through graduate school and also have practiced law. Neither profession is as flexible as it seems. And with teaching, one doesn't make enough to travel. On the other hand, with practicing law, one has the money, but one can never find the time or someone to cover the work in order to travel. 14 years ago, in order to stay home with my children at least part-time, I quit practicing law and began researching and drafting for other attorneys as an independent contractor. My income goes toward extra help for my elderly mother, funding my self-employment IRA each year and travel. Although my husband has a good job, we live frugally and thus, have the money to travel with the kids. As an independent contractor, I just say "I will be gone for two weeks" and hope that the work is still there when I come back. It always is. I often pick up other types of work along the way, in between trips. You could substitute teach (oftentimes, no teaching certificate is required), write grants, or run small not-for-profit corporations.

I started jotting down notes to write each of you copious responses, but then decided to try and condense into one post here!

I agree with ignoring SandyO who is either a xenophobe or deliberately provocative.

111op, I love the idea of tutoring, but it's like consulting in that one has to find the work, and as a consultant, I am great once I have clients, but terrible at getting them!

Bird, private industry can be financially rewarding, but is not at all secure, and no longer tied to what you know, but who you know..

S. it's great to hear from you! I just KNEW you taught!! I hear you about working in my career for a few more years - it's an option, but I find that since I'm unhappy in that track, I tend to console myself by spending the money I should be saving.

DutyFree - may I ask, what STATE are you in?? Those kinds of salary for teaching are pretty incredible! I'm in Philadelphia, and NJ offers pretty good salaries after many years teaching, of course.

Bob and DejaVu, thanks for the wake-up call...I do think that my time of going the university tenure track is over. Sadly, I love research and writing, and had I not been discouraged early in my career, I would have been a PhD teaching by now...on the other hand, I hear that you guys have to face a lot of internal politics..not thrilling.

SandyM -- So COOL!! Exactly what I"m after!! May I ask - how long does it take to get the certificate and how do you do it? Does the "reputation" of the university count for a lot? I could go to UPenn for MUCHO dollars, or to my local Comm College for almost nothing. In between, I can go to an ok university. Also, do you know about foreign languages? I could teach French but I would definitely need much refreshing on the grammar - wonder if I need a degree in French? Sorry I'm asking lots, but it's cool that we're in the same boat (except you're ahead!))

teacherlady - I admire your dedication. It's people like you who turn out adults with a lifelong thirst to learn and an open curiosity. I would want to become an inspirational teacher - I actually love to work hard when I'm working - but then have some down time. The 2 weeks a year one gets in industry doesn't even cover visits to family.

Fun4all -- thank you for the info! I would like to teach in my son's private school (kinda - might feel weird with the parents who are my son's friends..) but I worry about his reaction. He has a female friend in his class whose mom works at his school, and the other day he said to me "you know what's terrible? Serena's mom is always at school"! 4 going on 14....

Thanks again all. I'm still undecided but have more info.

"I am great once I have clients, but terrible at getting them!"

Do you know about craigslist?

I don't know where you live, but craigslist is widely used on both coasts (in the Bay Area and here in NYC).

All I had did was to spend five minutes posting a little ad on it, and I got two students this way. Another one wrote to see if I would consider doing some consulting.

Of course, if I had to make enough money doing this, I'd be really stressed out. There're quite a lot of competitors in NYC, but since both my students have asked me again and I think that I charge a little more than my competitors, I believe that they feel they're getting their money's worth.

So -- it can be easier than you think. I should have thought of doing it earlier, but what prompted this was a happy accident.

Good luck!

Marsha, I'm doing the same thing as you - I'm a consultant. I had to quit my main career because it was in international health care management requiring a lot of travel. While pregnant, I was naive enough to think that I'd hire a nanny and we'd all travel together (!) - my son's first year was spent largely in a hospital, so that pretty much negated any travel I was willing or able to do. So my secondary career is now freelance consulting. I'm finding it less than satisfying for a couple of reasons: 1) I simply ABHOR looking for work and in my field it's all about networking and putting myself out there; 2) I am more or less a routine lover - or at least I love to be able to predict my life months ahead of time (my field is strategic planning, after all) - and with consulting, I never know where I"ll be one month to the next...very anxiety provoking. The nice thing is that when the work is there, the money is really good, but I've found that actually, I prefer to make less and have piece of mind.

By the way, some of you may not know that E-Bay has a stake in craigslist.

Gambader,
I'm surrounded on all sides -- husband, friends, family, colleagues -- by university professors and I've gone through the PhD process with more people than I can count. I wouldn't recommended it to any but the youngest and hardiest. Not only is it a tough slog but then you have to spend years as an academic nomad, getting contract teaching hither and yon, before you might get into a tenure-stream job. Then, of course, publish or perish still holds true so there never seems to be a time when you can really let go and relax. I have to threaten my husband and force him not to bring his briefcase and laptop on holidays.

That said, we have a friend who is a university professor who has twice taken her elementary school age daughters off to live somewhere else for big chunks of time (Mexico and, currently, France). She does this by taking half-year sabbaticals when she can. There are costs to her, both financially and career-wise, and her daughters miss out on some of their schooling (but they're both very bright girls and won't fall behind permanently). And there's no husband in this picture, so no worries about coordinating careers. But on the whole, I think it would be a long haul for you to get a secure teaching job and then you'd be low man on the totem pole. I don't think you'd find the flexibility you're seeking.

What I'm saying (and excuse me if I'm repeating someone else's post -- I haven't read all the way through) is that you'd probably be more successful picking up your family and moving them somewhere for an extended period of time. If that were somewhere in Europe, of course, it would make traveling on holidays and weekends more possible. Whether that job is teaching or something else is a decision you'd have to make. Some things to consider: Is your husband on board with this? Which of you would be more likely to get a job overseas? Would the other be able to get something to augment that major salary? Would you have to sell your home or would you rent it (important if you have a tough real estate market to come back to)? How permanent an arrangement would you like this to be? Etc.

I've tried for two sabbaticals now to get my husband to 'take us away' but he's happy to write and work at home. Sigh.

Oh, and SandyO, as far as I can see you've never contributed a whit of travel info to this board. Are you just a disgruntled stay-at-home? If you don't have anything intelligent to contribute to the conversation, could you just read quietly?

I've been observing public education for many years, first as a student, and again as an involved parent. My initial degree was in education, largely because I was at that time too much into partying, and it was the easiest degree to get.

When I was a student, teachers were highly qualified, respected, and poorly paid. Our metal shop instructor would correct our grammar if we erred.

Things have changed, however, over the years. Teachers today do not get much respect, their qualifications seem very low, but, because the profession has become widely unionized, their pay is better. Many of us think that today's teachers are overpaid, given their lower qualifications, and of course, the results of their teaching (I know, I know, its someone else's fault).

Teachers I know who have retired all applaud their retirement income, particularly if they compare it with their working income from years ago. In my state, they are not under Socalled Security, but are covered by a state plan, which pays quite well, even though they can retire at a relatively young age. Many I know retire from one system, then go to work in another, so they are getting both a salary and their retirement, which will also increase because of their added contributions. That is getting harder to do, though, as salaries around here are tied to degrees and years of experience, and it is getting more expensive to hire an experienced teacher.

As to flexibility, I think that covers more than just having summers and holidays off. The good teachers I know (yes, there still are some, but they are rarer than they used to be) all chafe under the restrictions of their administrations, their unions, and increased governmental requirements. They feel more like trainers than teachers, but given the marginal academic talent that is now common in the field, I think too many of them are only qualified to be trainers.

Even though you have a degree or two, you will need to complete what will seem like a lot of "education" courses to get your certificate, where you will learn buzzwords, finger pointing, second rate psychology, and simple arithmetic, such as how to average numbers, taught by a professor who struggles with the concept himself.

Right now, I think there is a glut of K-12 teachers (except in some specialties) as all the kids who thought they were going to work in a factory found those jobs gone, so they picked up a BS in education and are flooding the field. Around here, many school districts are buying out experienced, and expensive, teachers, because they can easily replace them with less experienced, and less expensive, people.


One of my neighbors, an elementary teacher, lost his job when a levy failed, and the only replacment he could find was on a reservation in the Dakotas.

I don't see this improving. The whole educational establishment is fighting tooth and nail against meaninful computerization of the work, but they are repeatedly producing poorly educated graduates, especially when compared to the burgeoning field of home schooling. The educational unions are major political donors, but eventually I think we will rebel against what is too often a failed system.

Just to keep this travel related, the government does operate some schools overseas for the children of military people. My impression is that federal salaries are fairly competitive in this field, so that might be a way for you to see the world, if your husband could follow you.

Gambader,

I am attending a small private college in the Chicago suburbs. The rough estimate is two years to get certified if you already have a BA or BS.

I have had to take a couple extra English Lit courses which are part of the required curriculum for this college's BA degree, but which weren't required where I earned mine. This means a little bit longer in school for me, since I can only take two classes a semester at night while I work days.

I could be wrong, but I don't think where you get your certification is a big factor in getting hired. In this area, there are MANY schools to choose from, but only a few of them even offer teacher certification. The others have a full Masters course in Education.

From what I've heard, foreign languages are more in demand than subjects like English and Social Studies, at least in this area.

I recommend you check out the chat boards at teachers.net. They can be very informative, but please take them with a grain of salt, as they can also be pretty negative. It sounds like there is a lot of burnout among the posters there!

Just to mention another perspective...

I am also a teacher, and I work in a fairly affluent district, teaching 7th and 8th grade Russian.

As a teacher, the salary is simply not as high as other professions that require similar educational standards (Master's degrees, etc.). This can be a difficult thing to deal with, as I know that my work load is really not different than my friends who chose law school or other MA/MS educational paths.

Yes, I technically don't work summers... but let me tell you, not a day goes by in the summer where I am not lesson planning or creating materials for use in my classroom!

This said, the OP mentioned that in a previous life, he/she spoke several languages. I have found that teaching foreign language is a great way to be able to talk about culture and world perspectives, while opening a student's eyes to the world around them.

It also (sometimes!) affords the chance to travel with students during the school year- yes, it is a HUGE undertaking and an enormous responsibility... but I know that if it had not been for those teachers who brought me overseas in high school, my life would be quite different today!!

I might have been one of those law school people! : )

(Just kidding- my dad is an attorney, and law is the one profession I was not allowed to look into... his rule.)

a note to clevelandbrown:

<When I was a student, teachers were highly qualified, respected, and poorly paid >
yes, a lot of the formerly "good" teachers are leaving, as they are reaching retirement age... they are leaving the younger teachers in a system that has undergone such difficult changes, with the slide toward "assessment" rather than "education".

I am 27 years old, and have been teaching since I was 22... and I do get that "burned out" feeling sometimes, because I feel that far too much blame is placed on the teachers, preparing 32+ students for assessments that most adults could not handle.

< The good teachers I know (yes, there still are some, but they are rarer than they used to be)>

Thank you. I'll take that as a compliment- but feel free to drag the &quot;other ones&quot; through the mud, or get on the <b>&quot;unqualified parent- homeschool&quot; </b> bandwagon.

And feel free to thank a teacher that you could write that comment.

SusanM: I'm sorry, I hope you didn't think I was attacking you. If you were questioning my usage, (feel free to do so, I'm a musician, not a writer) you were actually commenting on dictionary.com since they wrote all but the first couple of lines of my submission. Actually, I think it supports your usage.

Sorry about the &quot;lessening of standards&quot; though language is a live entity and meanings change through usage. If the usage is &quot;uneducated&quot;, so be it, but it is usage. There are also quite a few usage differences between the UK and the US. If you look the word up on various online dictionaries, there are multiple definitions. These are clearly not the dictionaries that our more learned contributors use, but they are available to we dolts.

OK, I'll shut up. I just get a little crazy when the grammar police show up.

&lt;&lt;I could teach French but I would definitely need much refreshing on the grammar - wonder if I need a degree in French?&gt;&gt;

are you serious. Why would you be remotely qualified to teach French if you have no degree and don't know French grammar very well. The world does not need more teachers who don't know their subject. There are too many of them already, although not in cities with more competition. I have had language teachers in non-university schools (eg, private language schools, adult ed programs, etc.) who did not have degrees in a language, but were fluent and knew grammar very well. Many of them were just expats who had university degrees in their native country, but did something else in the US. Some were very good teachers and some were very bad. Some of these schools think just because someone is a native speaker, that makes them a teacher, which it doesn't.

I took French in summer at the Sorbonne in Paris, just for fun, and placed at a level that included some high school French teachers. I had only had two years of university-level French at that time, and I think that was pathetic that a HS teacher would not know more than I did. In fact, I used to help one with her homework. She taught at a HS in West Virginia and got that job because the HS was too cheap to hire someone with better credentials, so they tapped a HS teacher in another subject who had a few semesters of French.

Most schools have higher requirements, however, and certainly well-paying ones do. Where I now live (and teaching salaries are pretty decent), they are often very good, fluent, and have lived abroad for at least a year or so.

Both my parents were teachers and I have friends in the academic world now, and I think the idea of becoming a teacher without proper advanced degrees and experience in order to finance lavish vacations and have lots of free time needs re-thinking. It depends on the subject, of course, I know social sciences do not pay well and have many more applicants than they need. The teachers I know who get paid well have science degrees, or law or business or economic degrees and teach in universities. You cannot do this just because you have an MBA like a zillion other people, though.