My husband and I are in our sixties and are planning a European trip from around mid September to 21 October at the latest this year. I’m thinking we will possibly fly into Zurich but haven’t yet booked airfares.

We originally wanted to see Greece, but as I also wanted to return to Switzerland we’ve now been thinking of Switzerland plus a neighboring country, leaving Greece for another time. We’ll be using public transport.

I think I can work out an itinerary for about two weeks in Switzerland seeing places we missed last time, but am unsure about the next two or three weeks. I love beautiful Alpine scenery and also small old towns. My husband always likes the chance to see Roman ruins as well. I have problems with my feet so can’t do a lot of walking but with the help of taxis and local minivan tours we manage to see quite a bit when travelling.

I don’t know whether we should see some of Austria and a bit of Germany or possibly even some of northern Italy. There are so many places we haven’t been yet that it’s hard to choose. What do people who have been to all these places think? As far as beautiful scenery and old towns go, does Austria, Germany or Northern Italy win?

Well Oktoberfest is going strong so Munich may be cool. Anyway, for lots on public transports check www.bahn.de/en for schedules and www.ricksteves.com; www.bugeteuropetravel.com (especially online European Planning & Rail Guide for rail itineraries in all those places and www.seat61.com - sage advice in booking discounted tickets on trains online yourselves.

Check out the Wachau Valley stretch of Danube for cute small wine towns and lovely natural beauty: https://www.google.com/search?q=wachau+Valley+images&tbm=isch&tbo=u&sourc e=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiG59nM2fnZAhUC5YMKHQoGBBEQs AQIKA&biw=1503&bih=738.

Hi jacooper,

Just a comment on Pal's recommendation of Munich and Oktoberfest. Yes, it would be cool, but it will also be difficult and expensive. Hotels regularly raise their rates to an unbelievable rate, and even so, they sell out pretty quickly. I doubt you could now find a hotel in the inner city.

You could stay outside of the inner city, or even in the nearby Freising (which I did last year when my nephew unexpectedly wanted to see the Oktoberfest). The train/tram into the city would take about 15 or 20 minutes, depending on exactly where you were. I really loved the sweet little town of Freising and was totally happy with our stay there, but I didn't have to go into the city for the Fest.

https://www.bavaria.by/visit/freising/

Alternately, you could stay in a nearby city like Augsburg, which I think is more charming than Munich anyway. It escaped most of the bombing of WWII and has a section of town laced with small canals. It would be about 30 minutes on the train to and from Munich, but beware -- I found the trains to be really crowded during the O'fest.

Or you could just come to Munich after the Fest, which closes on 7 Oct this year.

Have fun as you plan!

s

Thanks to both of you for your information about Munich, but my question wasn’t about Munich. It was whether to visit Austria, Germany or northern Italy after Switzerland. I’m just looking for opinions about the merits of these places in terms of beautiful scenery and nice old towns from people who have seen them all. I know that Switzerland is beautiful, which is why I want to return there, but now need to decide on the second country to visit.

At the moment I’m leaning towards Austria and the Dachau Valley sounds like an area I’d like. Parts of Germany also sound lovely so maybe we could see a bit of both countries.

Hmmm. Not sure I understand your comment, jacooper. You are considering parts of Germany... Munich is in Germany...so it would be under consideration....?

And my comments weren't actually a recommendation so much as a caution if you followed Pal's recommendation.

s

"As far as beautiful scenery and old towns go, does Austria, Germany or Northern Italy win?"

We win.

OK, to reword my question: if you had two weeks to spend in either Austria, Germany or Northern Italy, which would you choose and why, considering that beautiful scenery and nice old towns are the criteria?

Dachau 'Valley' is near Munich!

All three countries could fulfill that.

I haven't done much in Northern Italy, so can't say, but I can recommend the lakes area in Austria roughly around Salzburg...Hallstatt, Wolfgangsee, Attersee, etc. If you can rent a car it would be easier to tour that area. Additionally, the area below Munich around Garmisch-Partenkirchen and Berchtesgaden plus other smaller towns there are lovely.

I, personally, would avoid Munich at Oktoberfest but that may just be me.

Hi again,

Hoping these recommendations might be closer to helpful than my first reply --

Two weeks in Bavaria could be nice, as Trophywife007 notes -- Garmisch and Berchtesgaden, plus Mittenwald, Oberammergau, Ettal, Füssen, etc. Those are very pretty towns and villages, with stucco'd buildings and fresco'd walls; the scenery here is a nice mix of green rolling hills, the occasional Alpine lake, and of course the beginning of the Alps. Mittenwald is a favorite of lots of folks because it's small and pretty and very close to the mountains. Berchtesgaden is also a big favorite. I live in Garmisch, so I'm probably partial to this area.

You may also want to consider the medieval city of Freiburg (am Breisgau). Though it's a city (population 222,000), it is very attractive and charming with a whole lot of history. I spent a few days there and followed the tourist office's self-guided walk, and I learned a lot and totally enjoyed the time. I wished I'd had more time there. Frieburg is also nicely situated for public transport out to Black Forest villages and towns, with loads to choose from -- Waldkirch for example. The landscape here is mostly green rolling hills, if that appeals. You could also combine time in Frieburg with some time in Alsace on the other side of the Rhine -- Ribeaville, Riquewihr, Eguisheim, and Colmar. I'm not sure where you'll be ending the Swiss portion of your trip, but Freiburg is about 2h from Zürich.

Another option would be to explore the towns and villages of Lake Constance (or the Bodensee). You could stay in the beautiful medieval town of Lindau (I loved it there) and enjoy the sweeping views across the lake, and visit Bregenze, Meersburg, Konstanz, etc. Lindau is about 2h25 from Zürich.

I also agree that the Salzkammergut would be wonderful. I spent some time in St. Gilgen several years ago, and I'm planning to spend time at St Wolfgang this July. You can visit these beautiful towns on the lake (the lake is beautiful and backed by gorgeous mountains) as well as visiting Salzburg and Berchtesgaden, all nearby. Zürich to Salzburg is about 6h or 7h by train.

Hope you find a place that calls to you, and have fun as you plan!

s

Yes the Garmisch area would be very neat - day trip easy into Octoberfest as I did once from there - lots of neat day trips by car - then head for Innsbruck and drive thru inland Alpine valley route to Salzburg - do the Lakes District and Hallstatt and work way to Vienna hitting Wachau Valley en route - that would fulfill you wish list.

Thanks very much, everyone. That’s much more what I was hoping to hear. I have a lot to research to do to make my decision now. Octoberfest isn’t something I have any interest in so will be avoiding Munich.

Sorry, I meant WACHAU Valley in earlier comment, not Dachau Valley.

Also, we definitely will not be hiring a car so all our travel needs to be possible by train/ bus/taxi.

Trains amd transits are much better in Germany and Ausrtria than Northern Italy where a car would be best.

agree for Northern Italy car would be the best.

Hi again,

No, a car is definitely not needed for the Garmisch area -- I lived here for 9 1/2 years without a car. It's easy as pie to get around to all the places I mentioned in my post by train or bus. It would be best if you could find a hotel or apartment in Garmisch that isn't far from the pedestrian zone and also not far from the train station. Your hosts will give you a visitors' card that will make the town busses free. You can use the German rail site to get the schedules for excursions:

www.bahn.com

just make sure that the name of your departure & destination are spelled right (there are lots of towns and villages with similar names, so you could get a bad result). If you can't do the umlaut (Füssen), then add an "e" after the vowel (Fuessen).

When I visited St Gilgen, I didn't have a car, and I got around just fine on the busses to visit nearby towns, etc. The best day, however, was when I rented a bicycle and cycled along the lake -- really a great way to sightsee all that beauty.

I also visited Lake Garda without a car, and I found it more problematic. The busses were usually 10 minutes or more late, and they ran only about once every other hour. One town I wanted to visit would have meant a change of busses... and with the busses running late, I was afraid the arriving bus would be late and I'd miss the connecting bus and be stuck in the middle of nowhere for a few hours. It was possible to tour around with the lake ferries.... but it was expensive (about 70€ for a round-trip on the fast boat to where I wanted to go) or time-consuming (about 4h each direction for the inexpensive boat).

Have fun!

s

Thanks again for all this info. We will definitely stick with Austria and Germany then as neither of us wants to drive (wrong side of the road for us). As I said earlier we can probably stretch our time to three weeks, so maybe 10 days in Austria and 10 in Germany.

In Austria, there are two competing train systems - Austrian State Railwas=- ÖBB - Startseite I believe and Willkommen - onwed I believe by Austrian Railways but one offering consistently cheap ticket even if not pre-ordering weeks ahead of time, giving you flexibility.

In Bavaria - where you will be taking trains check out the dirt cheap Bavarian Pass good for a day's unlimited train or bus travel but restricted to regional trains - good on city transports too. Buy it day of travel at stations.