PalenQ

Sounds like the Venice-ization of central Paris is inevitable unless the government owns a lot of flats and has rent control.

I think though that making tourists the bogey men of this is just a minor aspect of why folks want to move to the leafier more modern burbs - happens always to cities like Paris regardless of tourists I think.

but I can see your side and hope it can be abated.

Envierges

PalenQ

Maybe it is inevitable. I think that Paris hopes not. These are not "burbs" people are moving to but the double digits. Still urban but neighborhoody.

But as you pointed out, cities change. We'll see what happens. As pointed out in another post, the TV reports from Venice have been frightening.

PalenQ

Amsterdam's centrum is a case in point - not a lot of flats for tourists though causing the problem (from a tourist's often naive point of view perhaps as with Paris, admittedly) seems offices of large companies opening along the canals- displacing locals who probably found old digs too expensive to stay in and have fled for whatever reason.

Paris is a lot bigger and I read you about neighborhoods losing their real feel- like the Latin Quarter area or Beaubourg or the Champs Elysees, Ile de la Cite that sparked this thread, etc.

A neighborhood with local cafes and boulangeries, etc to me is what I'm looking for in any place to stay- central London is a prime example to me of a place now given over wholly to tourists or businesses - Paris not so much yet.

I'd rather stay in Kerouac's seemingly normal neighborhood which I walked thru once several years ago after he described it- even though 'remote' for many tourists than around say the Louvre or Latin Quarter/Sorbonne areas.

Envierges

Talking of Amsterdam and London, you've hinted at another thing I've wondered about. This mass tourism business with the "I have three days in Paris, what are the top things to see" approach maintains the mass in central Paris affecting my outer neighborhood not at all . . .which is seen as remote,unsafe, the home of banditi etc

Is the creation of a "tourist ghetto" intended to protect the rest of the city?

fuzzbucket

I have been looking for the last 6 months for a new apartment to rent for the rest of my life. I have been looking in every arrondissement, and even in the nearby suburbs.

A realtor just explained to me yesterday that short-term rentals have taken 40% of the formerly available apartments off the long-term market.

By the way, the Mayor's Office will not accept calls, emails or visits from annoyed residents who want to turn in their neighbors.
Neighbors can complain among themselves, but they must follow a formal process if they wish to be heard.

PalenQ

Blame the Mairie not the tourist then.

I do understand the impact on the market for folks like you. But don't blame the naive tourist (most are when booking an apartment I think).

kerouac

Why would anybody blame the mairie? It is greedy owners who caused the problem. The mairie is just trying to pick up the pieces.

Envierges

How do the banks figure in the greed equation? When I bought, no mortgages were available for foreigners . . .payment was cash only eliminating the need for non resident owners to rent their units in order to pay the mortgage.

fuzzbucket

I place full blame on the tourists for the lack of available apartments for residents who desperately need them.

Tourists do not "desperately" need short-term rentals.
They have just bought into a clever marketing strategy.

The news about illegal short-term rentals has been broadcast since 2009. Most people chose to ignore this information, or just hoped it would go away.

I resent having to pay the price for people who value their perceived comfort level over the needs of residents who need affordable housing.

apersuader65

Fuzzbucket said:

<<Again, this list is virtually useless, as it does not identify the actual apartment.

How did you determine that the apartment you rented is legal?>>

I will admit, I did have to make certain assumptions.

For my address in the Premier Arr., my address was listed. It gives the address with three apartments certified for my trip this past June. There are only three apartments at that address (ground floor was a restaurant), so I assume my apartment was one of the three apartments at the address where three apartments were available.

Maybe I was wrong.

PalenQ

Why would anybody blame the mairie? It is greedy owners who caused the problem. The mairie is just trying to pick up the pieces.>

Well blame whoever is supposed to enforce the law - apparently no one. I see and agree with the problem of taking affordable housing off the market for wealthy flat owners but blaming the tourist is just not right - especially as the tourist has it seems little reliable way of knowing what is legal or not if they look at Paris Tourisme site anyway.

Is Paris that lawless that anyone can get away with such illegal things?

OK don't blame the Mairie but blame someone - not the often naive tourist.

WoinParis

Then we must blame US government for drugs in the states. Clearly nobody is enforcing the laws since there is so much drugs available. Or are the United States so lawless that anyone can get away with such illegal things ?

For some people, authorities have to be blamed for everything. When there was a heatwave 10 yeas ago (about) French blamed authorities because a lot of elderlies died of dehydratation. Nobody blamed the children who were away and didn't look after their parents or the nurses who didn't do tier job. No it was the government.

Blaming the authorities is easy : it exonerate us from any responsibility. You are not naive, are you ?

kerouac

Since we have gone totally off topic, I should also mention that the mairie has started working on a different project -- the 50,000 service rooms (<i>chambres de bonne</i which measure less the 9m². 9 square meters is the minimum size that can be rented legally, but at least half of these rooms are rented anyway. The city is planning to expropriate as many as possible, connect them to turn them in to real apartments (since they are normally all grouped together on the top floors of the bourgeois buildings) and provide them as social housing.. This is another project that will take at least 20 years.

People seem to think that all of this stuff can be done by snapping your fingers, for some reason, same as tracking down the illegal holiday rentals.

apersuader65

WoinParis, many of us in the states DO blame the government for the drugs here. The CIA has been involved in numerous schemes to bring in drugs. There are plenty of proven times Hoover set things up for the drug trade to prosper, at least in certain communities (blacks and "hippies" in the 60's the most recent revelations) so not only do we blame it, our blame is fully justified.

kerouac

Right now, the city has just finished expropriating a property owned by the al-Assad family in the 16th arrondissement. It is going to build 29 subsidized apartments and a crèche there. Just to show how slowly this goes, this project has taken 3 years just to clear the property deal (the city has put 9.5 million euros on a blocked account in payment for the property; this might be transferred to the Syrian government if relations are re-established some day). Construction will take another 2 or 3 years -- no finger snapping magical construction here either!

PalenQ

Maybe Jacques Chirac can help out with the Paris apartment situation - he knows the ropes so to speak.

Blaming the authorities is easy : it exonerate us from any responsibility. You are not naive, are you ?>

No not if we tourists know that but do you check every hotel or apartment say you see online with the local authorities to see if they're Hoyle?

Again tell me I missed it I guess - how do I tell if a Paris flat offer or airbnb offer is legit- the tourist office web site I would think would seem to give the blessing if they carried ads, etc.

If the tourist knows blame them if not not.

And again I am all in support of what I hear you locals saying- in my town such illegals would be shut down and the owner hauled into court and fined.

Do women wear shorts yet in Paris? Only the law breakers I guess? Is the burden on them to know that they are breaking a law?

WoinParis

...

fuzzbucket

PalenQ -
Right...
Do you really expect anyone to believe that the authorities where you live could round up, prosecute, fine and shut down illegal vacation rentals at the drop of a hat?
Some people would demand that the courts follow due process.

PalenQ

Some people would demand that the courts follow due process.>

Bien sur and until the courts have ruled why blame tourists who stay in those places that according to you could end up being legal?

A difficult problem - and again I sympathize with yous. Just don't usually naive tourists.

fuzzbucket

Because tourists have been aware of this problem since 2009, that's why.