WoinParis

Airbnb says the same as apersuader : they are breaking no laws. Owners tell them that they are legit, so they don't bother further. They take their share, that is all.

Let me tell you a story :
in 1942 the SS asked the French (they also asked the Belgians) to help them round some Jews and put them in a camp.
The Police did cooperate and arrested families of Jews who were sent in cmaps like Drancy and from there to Auschwitz.
When asked to arrest the Jews, the policemen had a kind of a choice :
- they could refuse and face problems. Some did. They felt it was not just, they stood against that order.
- they could cooperate. Most did. They were just obeying the law, after all. They were not breaking the law, and heck, it was not their problem.
- they could enthusiastically do the job. After all they were following orders and by that getting rid of 'Untermenschen'.

One has always a choice. It is called a conscience.
There are always at least these 3 categories of people.

Airbnb in that scheme ? SNCF. They are delivering the tickets for the trip to Auschwitz. Nothing illegal.

Loacker

As always, I tend to agree with my fellow duck rights activist, PalenQ. "Too many Cassandras here." Couldn't have said it any better.

Loacker

In France, it's still technically illegal for a woman to wear pants unless she's riding a bicycle. One of the absurd laws that are still on the books.

I wonder how many rule-abiding Fodorites do abide by that one.

WoinParis

I wonder how many Fodorites have a conscience.

Cassandra had indeed high moral standards.
Obviously she has to be ridiculed by other (lesser) people.
Much easier.

apersuader65

Interesting to see tax evasion and human extermination equated. I hadn't thought of that analogy.

There is a difference between the assertion that renting an apartment is illegal and whether or not it is unconscionable. As I said upthread, the last two apartments I rented were, and still are on the Mairie's website as legal. But calling someone a thief because they do not know if the apartment rental is illegal tax evasion by the owner is entirely a different matter.

This isn't a consumer issue, it is an enforcement issue. Paris is, and will continue to work its way through implementation of its' enforcement of a rather old law that has been unenforced for many years.

PalenQ

This isn't a consumer issue, it is an enforcement issue.>

Exactly - rather than blame the naive consumer as some above do blame the Paris government for not enforcing a law.

If they don't give a Hoot why should I the consumer?>

janisj

>>Exactly - rather than blame the naive consumer <<

No one on this thread or others re the same topic cab claim to be a 'naive consumer' - since the issues have been extensively discussed. 'Naive' consumers would be those who have never heard about the issue.

fuzzbucket

apersuader - are you referring to the list on the Official Paris Tourist website? If so, those apartments are not legal. Anyone can pay to advertise anything they want on that website. The City takes no responsibility for the legality or good service of any of the listings which appear on that site.

This also applies to any other Official Tourist websites all over the world. It's just advertising.

WoinParis

Fuzz !

They appear on a tourist site, they are listed on AirBnb...
What more does apersuader want ?
He just wants to be able to say that he didn't know, he doesn't want to know about legality.

After all if the authorities let it appear on a site, why would a renter be concerned ?

Loacker

WoinParis and the PC brigade, please get off your moral high horses and think logically.

Short-term apartments may be illegal but I'm not hurting anyone by renting one. Just like smoking pot. It's also illegal, but no one in Europe is busy enforcing it.

We just have to accept the fact that some rules are absurd and are only there so that the government can make more money.

WoinParis

You are hurting me Loacker. I pay taxes so that 'you' use the commodities without paying for it.

However my morals and ethics are clearly higher than some here.

And when I do something illegal or I am being an accomplice to thieves I don't boast about it. That is what is really p****g me off here.

And the authorities are doing something about it.

And I don't smoke.

What else ? I am stubborn.
And I have had Jewish relatives dying in Auschwitz.
Put in the train by law abiding people who didn't find anything of it. Esp when the authorities were doing nothing against it.

So. Apersuader is just abusing the system and telling me I am stupid. I find it the world upside down.
But. It is my last post about it.

Albeit Fodors agrees with me since if they deleted the thread on the U.S. Forum they left all comments here when asked to remove some by the author (me).

Or not ?

PalenQ

something so so obviously illegal and authorities do nothing about it - shame on them. Obviously not a priority - illegal flats can advertise on the Paris Tourist Office's web site - that gives them the veneer of legitimacy -makes no sense.

I can see Parisians side of it but they should be constantly calling their elected officials to enforce it - how hard would that be- just a plain clothes operation renting one and showing up and citing the real miscreants - the owner and not the renter.

kerouac

Frankly, up until now, outside of the tourist ghettos, most French people have not even been aware of the issue since they have plenty of other things to worry about in their daily lives. Some people had heard of the problem but did not really feel that it affected them other than knowing that most working people will never ever live on Ile de la Cité, in Saint Germain-des-Prés, the renovated part of the Marais or the golden triangle, so who cares?

However, the media have been devoting quite a few reports in recent days to what happened to Venice, which is now considered a dead city, and the huge battles in cities like Barcelona and Amsterdam which have reached the tourism breaking point, as well as cities like Berlin and London where it is becoming more and more difficult for ordinary people to find housing for a reasonable rent. All of these cities are now taking very strict measures concerning holiday rentals. So far Paris has mostly been an observer, but it has also been collecting information on the most effective way to fight back.

Those who think that nothing is happening on this front should be very surprised before long.

fuzzbucket

Plenty of residents have been calling the Mayor's Office, neighborhood organizations, etc and demanding that something be done about people running illegal hotel rooms in their buildings.

There is now a dispositif in place which demands accountability from residents who complain - someone from the co[propriete must be appointed to deal with accurately recording the comings and goings of short-term rental clients. The property owner or person who is illegally sub-letting must be identified. This will be submitted at a meeting between the representative of the co-propriete and the Mayor's task force. It's very serious, and takes a long time to round up enough information.

The wheels of justice are very thorough in France, so none of this will go quickly.

apersuader65

<<are you referring to the list on the Official Paris Tourist website?>>

No. I am not at my home office, so I do not have the saved link to the mairie website with the list, by arrondissement, of approved apartments. I saved it from a link here on Fodor's someone submitted. It has the apartments listed by arrondissement, and as you select each arrondissement, a list of addresses comes up with approved apartments. Some of them identify multiple units in the single address, others it is more difficult as there is just the address. When I first looked at it, I saw how the list of approved apartments were calculated at 600. As I recall when I first looked at it, there were slightly more than that on the list. What it entails now, not sure.

Once I get back home, I'll try to remember to link the address finder here.

apersuader65

got lucky here and found the link searching Fodors:

http://opendata.paris.fr/explore/dat...s/information/

fuzzbucket

Again, this list is virtually useless, as it does not identify the actual apartment.

How did you determine that the apartment you rented is legal?

PalenQ

Why are locals so up in arms about tourists staying in their flats- are they noisy - any more than bona fide residents.

Not sure why some Parisians here are so up in arms about this- what am I missing - what's the big deal with tourists staying in your flat- to me would be a plus but if there are real problems then fine but what are they?

I know the real issue with Paris authorities is illegal rentals but why do the other tenets really care in a flat where you rarely see anyone I would think, having lived in such places?

Belinda

I am easily one of the quietest, if not the quietest person in my building. I don't practice an instrument, do construction work, move chairs around endlessly or have late parties.

I hate that this new law is turning neighbors on neighbors. The hotel lobby I get. Even the fact that apartments become more expensive for locals on a long term basis. But it seems to me that "enforcement" seems to be relying on residents whistle blowing.

Envierges

So many times on this forum have people tried to explain. It isn't a case by case apartment by apartment issue. If you rent an apartment short term next door, you're probably not going to cause me any problem at all. (However, compromising a building's security is an issue here. Most of us no longer have ever watchful guardiens, but key pads.) This is more a "critical mass" isssue.

When a certain level of short term apartments rentals are located in a given area, a tipping point is reached. Services residents need like he the shoemaker, clothes repairer, locksmith, coffee bean grinder, halal butcher, book store, flower shop . . .all those shops that make up a neighborhood leave partly because the business is gone and partly because rents are driven up . . .and those spaces are taken over by soft drink stores and sandwich shops catering to the short term renter. And so the neighborhood is gone. And residents leave in order to find a neighborhood elsewhere where they can locate the services they need.

As pointed out in the post regarding bus changes, the "local" population of Paris is moving out of central Paris requiring bus service changes to reflect where the population actually is. The inner city "tourist ghetto" is becoming more and more depopulated by "locals" because they can't find the services they need and/or do not want to live with the crowds. I'm sure apartment affordability plays a part, but my friends have moved for the crowds and service reasons.