I will be in London on a Sunday morning in July and want to worship in a glorious cathedral while I am there. Any opinions on which of these two I should choose?

St Paul's is the place i believe - Abbey is more like a museum it seems but St Paul's is the focal point of Anglicanism and they do have several services on Sunday - and for these services only entrance is free (about $15 other times)

The Abbey (though of course it isn't a cathedral).

St Paul's is, ultimately, unEnglish. A post-Reformation church, built at one go, in one style, for the rather Spartan liturgy of the mid-17th century. Little history attached. It's not much more than a purpose-built locale for grand ceremony. It has a soul-less ness sadly shared by so many relatively recent large Christian churches (St Peter's in Rome is the supreme example of this, and most of England's dismal Catholic cathedrals have the same problem), but thankfully absent from most of England's other, older, Anglican cathedrals.

It isn't at all the focal point of Anglicanism: that's Canterbury. It's just the seat of the Bishop of London, who's pretty junior in the CofE hierarchy

Contrast this with the Abbey. Originally commissioned by a saint, 1000 years ago, for what was then the West's only version of Christianity. It contains traces - in its odd scraps of surviving medieval painting and statuary - of a thousand years of constant change and addition, but the basic structure remains the same.

Throughout those thousand years, our forbears have - as in all proper English churches - been pouring all kinds of Stuff into it. Far from being a museum, it is, like any other English medieval church, the embodiment of a thousand years of local attention.

flanner - as usual spell binding - but are there regular services at the abbey? I guess there must be - i guess it's more a cathedral-like thing than a mausoleum.

A simple "google" produced the following:

http://www.stpauls.co.uk

http://www.westminster-abbey.org/

Both have services, but only one is considered a "cathedral". That would be St. Paul's.

St Paul's is a Cathedral - true. Westminster Abbey isn't - true.

But I think it is a semantics thing - I don't think Kellye meant only places that are "officially" cathedrals (or she wouldn't have mentioned an "Abbey" in the first place).

Kellye: For services - I would agree w/ flanneruk if you want to be surrounded by history, stained glass and such, go to the Abbey. St Pauls is centuries newer than the Abbey and is interesting in It's own right. But it is vast - the reason Charles/Diana's wedding was there wasn't because it is a finer church - but because it is so darn big and can seat MANY more people than the abbey.

Either would be fine - but my vote between the two would go to the Abbey -- even though it isn't a "cathedral"

For the service itself, I prefer St. Paul's. Maybe we went on a bad Sunday, but the speaker delivered a lecture on Nelson Mandela, not a sermon. A couple of times at St. Paul's, we have been fortunate enough to hear the boys' choir. It's terrific.

Sorry, meant that to say the speaker at Westminster Abbey . . .

It was semantics--I should have said I wanted to worship in a glorious historical church setting that cannot be found in the U.S.....how's that? As one of the "frozen chosen" (Presbyterian for those who don't recognize the term), I am most comfortable in a formal liturgy and think I will be quite comfortable in any Anglican setting. Unless...are there any glorious Presbyterian worship spaces in London? ;-)

FWIW, I plan to attend Sunday morning services in one and possibly evensong in the other. Does that change anyone's opinion as to which one I should attend on Sunday morning? I am enjoying the feedback, by the way, keep it coming.

How about a quick flight to Edinburgh and attending services at St Giles Cathedral? Now that IS a glorious Church of Scotland (Presbyterian) venue. But maybe a bit far to go for sunday services though

But re your question - I'd just make sure there was a sung Evensong (not all are) the day you wanted to attend and then go to the other place for the Sunday service. I <i>might</i> prefer Evensong at the Abbey - but since you are going to try to do both, it doesn't make all that much difference.

Why restrict yourself to one, relatively insular, denomination? Our tradition of free trade and open competition extends to religion too.

Go to www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/, then click &quot;Sunday Worship&quot; at the bottom. You're taken to a dozen pages of the English churches that take music and liturgy seriously, showing what music they'll have on the following Sunday. The arrangement is arcane and the list is close to incomprehensible if you don't understand the order they're listed in:
- English Anglican cathedrals in alphabetical order by town
- Welsh, then Scottish, then Irish cathedral of the Episcopalian communion in alphabetical order by town
- English, then Scottish, Catholic cathedrals in alphabetical order by town
- London's Eastern Orthodox cathedrals
- London's Royal Peculiars (to simplify, historic churches like the Abbey that aren't conventional parish churches)
- Anglican parish churches in central London that take music seriously, alphabetically by name
- Catholic ditto, except they list The Oratory as if it were Anglican (it's not)
- Major Reformed churches ditto, but in no particular order.

My own recommendation would be sung Latin High Mass at St Ethelreda's (the only medieval church in London that's Catholic) for a dose of incense and plainsong, ending with Evensong at
the Abbey. Or Mass at the Russian Orthodox church.

If you find out when the &quot;high mass&quot;, or equivalent is at Westminster, it is definitely worht while. They have the choir and it is SO dramatic. Lots of history there too. Get there early.

My mother lived in London during the war. She's pretty stiff upper lip about the whole experience, but one thing that will get her teary is talking about how important it was to be able to look up on the morning after a raid and see St. Paul's still standing. So perhaps it is &quot;soul-less&quot; and has &quot;little history,&quot; but for some it is tremendously symbolic.

Flanneruk,
Thanks for the marvelous link and the explanation. I've bookmarked and will check again closer to my trip.