kja

"I suppose one solution ... just don't tip, at all, anywhere, ever. It seems the only possibility..."

Not a lashing, just a suggestion: As someone who has travelled far and wide and long (but not enough in any direction!), what I do is to always carry a notecard in my purse with various bits of "critical info" -- "musts" and "must nots" and "shoulds," (including tipping norms), etc. It's never taken more then half a 3"x5" notecard. And with easy access to "notes" one can post to oneself on smartphones or other electronic devices, I find it hard to imagine that attention to tipping norms would be a burden for most people in today's world.

thursdaysd

"those of us who travel far and wide and long and who cannot manage to keep all the "musts" and "must nots" and "shoulds" and so on straight"

If you find it so difficult to keep the cultural norms of the countries you are visiting sraight, perhaps you should not visit quite so many in one trip? And kja is, of course, right that there are simple solutions for people of good will who happen to have faulty memories.

Hez

I'm still not sure why tipping is necessary in places where a living wage is paid to all staff, or for jobs where there is a "fee" for the service, like a taxi. In general I tip according to 'custom', but I still am not sure that I'm not getting fleeced by said workers, especially when the service is average or sub par.

MmePerdu

My memory is fine and my tongue is planted firmly in cheek. Maybe I should take it all a bit more seriously but I often stay with friends in Asia and Europe and have less occasion to practice. My companions tend take care of the finer points and leave me to have a nice time. I think I'll just leave it at that.

kja

Hez wrote: "I'm still not sure why tipping is necessary in places where a living wage is paid to all staff, or for jobs where there is a "fee" for the service, like a taxi. "

Indeed! When a living wage is paid to all staff, tipping is normally not expected, and in such cultures, tipping can undermine all sorts of social and economic patterns and have other far-reaching, if unintentional, consequences. On the other hand, <u>failing</u> to tip in cultures where a living wage is NOT paid to all staff (like the U.S.) can ALSO have terrible consequences, at least for the individuals involved.

And THAT is one reason why it is so important that travelers learn and pay attention to the local norms, each of which varies: Who gets a living wage, whether they are tipped or not? Whose wages depend on tips? If tips are expected, what proportion of the person's compensation are they expected to constitute? Etc.

Hez also wrote: "I still am not sure that I'm not getting fleeced by said workers, especially when the service is average or sub par."

I'm not aware of any place where tipping for SUB-par performance is expected (although I could be wrong). I do know of some people who try use low tips to SIGNAL sub-par performance. As I understand it, the "logic" is that one can use a ridiculously low tip to say, "hey, I didn't forget -- I WANT you to KNOW that I thought your service unacceptable and I WANT you to suffer financially as a result." But, of course, that message doesn't necessarily get through, whether because servers pool their tips voluntarily or must pool their tips by house rules or because other patrons take tips that have been left unattended on other tables (yes, indeed, some do!), or because the server simply assumes the tipper didn't know the norms or whatever.... (And, of course, it doesn't tell the server what s/he could do to improve, or give him/her a way to correct any problem that arose.)

As for tipping for AVERAGE performance -- please remember that in some countries, the U.S. included, tipping is generally <b>expected</b> for average performance, and wages are assigned, and taxed, with that expectation in mind.

It does get complicated!

One other reason to learn and follow the country's norms, without regard to how things happen "at home." When in Rome....

Leah4

I have certainly enjoyed reading all your comments. The subject about tipping was a way to get all your viewpoints on this matter, so I would have a rough idea on how to tip wisely. My conclusion, they're all getting beads! I know taking public transport is the way to go; however, I will be using taxis more often than not because I have difficulty walking...I have a torn meniscus. I've had the MRI and am now waiting to be seen by an orthopedic surgeon. In the meantime, I'm hobbling about with my knee wrapped in a patella knee support. I also wished to know how much to pay the concierge...he's the fellow with the contacts to get you into certain restaurants that are fully booked, and he can possibly get tickets for an event during your stay. Well, he'll get paid in beads too! Thank you all again!

Bokhara2

Bravo, thursdaysd & kja!

A little more attention to how things are done in our HOST country & a lot less to how things are done at home would make us more welcome guests & better world citizens, IMO.

bilboburgler

Leah4 wonderful LOL. Sorry about the leg, gets to us all.

MmePerdu

Leah4, have a wonderful time. Cheers.

kenav

I was a waitress at the South Street Seaport here in NYC many years ago. I waited on two men from Italy for about 2 hours. Bill came to about $100. After paying, they left a few coins on the table for me. I actually ran after them, down the street, and told them that in the U.S. one is supposed to tip. They just laughed at me and walked on.

bilboburgler

I once had a meal in the 'burbs outside Boston (in the USA). Every dish took ages to arrive and most were cool if not cold. The wine arrived with the desert.

At the end the waiter asked how it had been. We told him. The tip was "don't do that again"

Leah4

Kenav, some people have no class and are ignorant. Bilboburgler, you're a scream! So much fun to read your comments. Couldn't agree more with you for the tip you left that waiter. Having said this, perhaps the kitchen had something to do with the delay; however, the waiter is responsible to bring it to your table the moment it's ready...no excuse for your food to be cold. Wine with dessert...really?!
Thank you MmePerdu...I will.

Hez

This is the problem with tipping - wait staff think people are "supposed to tip" whereas it's completely voluntary. Yes, it's customary in the US, but running down the street after people for not tipping is completely wrong. If you think people should pay a service fee as is done in many countries, then work towards changing the system.

kenav

Hez, you're kidding, right?. Work towards changing the system if I'm upset some Italian men left small change as a "tip" because that's what they do in their own country? If an American did something so culturally ignorant in another country everyone would be all over them as "ugly Americans".

And, BTW the service these men received was professional. No cold, wrong or forgotten dishes.

Bokhara2

Perhaps, Kenav - but I doubt anyone would chase them down the street to berate them.

Hez

Not kidding at all. They are under no obligation to give you anything - that's why it's a "tip" not a "fee". Do I think it's culturally insensitive of them to not tip? Yes, but that's their prerogative. Honestly, if I ran a restaurant and a waitress ran down the street after customers like that I would fire them on the spot.

bilboburgler

I agree that the Italians were behaving incorrectly there.

And that is why, "when in Rome" is such a good test

kenav

Hez, yes they are under no obligation to tip. However they got good service, wait staff get paid below minimum wage in U.S. and it is expected that a customer will leave a tip in the U.S. if decent service was given, and that insensitiive foreigners will check up on the custom before they come here, as they would expect others coming to their country would.
Don't worry, it's obvious i would never work for you in the first place.

Leah4

Kenav, I'm on your side. You're spot on!

Hez

I guess at least we've found some common ground kenav. Happy Travels. H.