Doppio

>>>>><i>isn't unusual from parties of a dozen or so destitute, students, or peculiarly finnickety women: it's unheard of among grown-up, settled, men. </i>

<i>>>>>>It's ill-mannered to other customers, and to the restaurant, to expect serving staff time to be diverted from their job of looking after proper customers to indulge the whims of the self-centred. </i>

EXACTLY. It's also unheard of from grown up women.

It's not the wait staff's responsibility, it's yours.

cathies

As another poster said, it might be easier to pay in cash on this trip. Fortunately tipping isn't an issue in Europe.

hetismij2

You may well find a not at the bottom of the menu specifically stating that the restaurant will not split the bill if you are all sitting at one table. Bad enough for a restaurant to have to do it for 4 or6 people, but ridiculous to expect them to do it for 11 of you.

Work out a system before you go away - a kitty, everyone noting what they eat/drink on their smart phone and then paying cash for it, or whatever. Do not decide at the end of your first meal how you are going to deal with this question - or you will not be speaking to half your party by day 2.

justineparis

I am baffled by the problem. When I go out with friends we have often forgotten or not bothered to get the bill separated, but we are capable of reading and we just put in what we are billed for.. if bill says my chicken was 20 bucks and that 5 glasses of wine were sold at 5 dollars a glass and I know I only had two glasses I put 30 dollars in the pot ( plus tip here of course). Can't people keep track of their own expenses.

At very least, if you decide to split the bills please have the people sit together, its incrediblily hard for waiter to remember who is on whos tab if you are all mixed up together.

I rather think the idea of sitting at two tables is a good one too, and one you will end up doing anyways as many small places simply will not have a table for 11 .

Although tipping is not necessary in France, or is given in much smaller amounts, I personally would leave 5-10 euros( from whole table not per person!) for any waiter who had to handle a table of eleven people. yuck.

Sassafrass

Solve the issue ahead of time between yourselves, and don't cause a problem for the waiter.

On a big trip, however, where you will be eating out a lot, it is nervy of the heavy eaters/drinkers to think the light eaters/drinkers should split equally. Over a week to ten days, that could really add up.

Correct etiquette says the person with the smaller bill may suggest splitting, but not the person with the larger bill, that it is a rude way of asking the other person to pay for you.

I had the experience once of being on a super tight budget and being invited out by a relative who, without telling me, invited another woman I did not know. She said the restaurant was cheap - like pub food: not so. I had, at the time, $20.00 in my pocket and no credit cards. I had salad and tea, keeping enough for my tip. They had huge meals, cocktails, wine and desert (about $90.00 each), then said, "Oh lets just split it three ways. I had to decline their generous offer to have me pay for part of their meals. They were very upset, said I was being cheap, etc. I finally emptied my purse and said if they could find any more money, they were welcome to it. Terrible experience.

I love paying for friends when I can. After a trip to Paris, we got a note with a check in it. Called my friend to ask what it was for. She said we kept picking up the tab and she had added things up and realized how much we had paid for them and they wanted it to be more fair. We didn't care, and didn't cash the check, but I appreciated that they didn't expect it.

annhig

sassafrass - that's terrible. they must have noticed that you were ordering the cheapest things and have drawn their own conclusions. When they realised that, they should have offered to stand you dinner and made sure that you ate properly. THey were the cheapskates, not you.

justineparis

I agree sassafras those people you were with behaved horridly. I can't believe they expected to split the bill three ways , they in fact were the cheapskates and rude too..

kerouac

Pocket calculators are your friend. Make sure that each of the 11 people has one and decide on a prize to award the person who works out the correct amounts to pay first (free meal to be paid by the other 10 people, for example). ;-)

TDudette

That was awful sassafrass. If I'd had 2 wines and a full course and my dining partner had water and a salad, I think it would be rude to expect him/her to share equally.

Guess what, some of the newer restaurants I been to in Maryland have one check with sub-totals for each seat position. That makes it very easy to figure out who owes what.

kerouac

Back when I was extremely poor and was purposely ordering the cheapest items, this happened to me a number of times.

But the lesson was well learned. Recently when a dinner was being organized by various people and the restaurant was named, I checked it out on the internet and replied "I hope you all have a good time -- it is over my budget." I immediately received a message from one of the people saying "I'm inviting you." The meal was delicious (and yet not worth the price that was paid -- it was former President Chirac's favorite restaurant).

TDudette

Good job, kerouac! DH (rip) resented paying too much for something he was only renting!

schnauzer

My experience over the years is that the people who eat the most and drink the most always suggest splitting the bill. And get really shirty (annoyed) when you resent doing so, having only had one glass of wine and a small meal. They call you mean - hello - aren't they the mean ones expecting others to contantly sub their meals? I just don't understand this mentality.

I like A glass of wine with my meal, that's all. But find if I go out with a group they order bottle after bottle of expensive wine - divide it up between everyone - mostly it is 2-3 who drink the most and it costs me over $50 for one glass. I find that outrageous and most unfair, but of course they have had so much to drink it makes them get even more cheesed off and so it can get nasty. Their attitude is well you should drink more - but I don't really want to thanks.

I have recently fallen out with a 'friend' of over 20 years as I finally spoke up and said I wanted to order what I wanted to eat for my dinner and not have her order for everyone - excessive amounts of food which continually got left. She took great offence and hasn't spoken to me since. Her loss I reckon.... She is a professional lady and earns a small fortune, I am no way in the same category. She is a very heavy drinker and in all the 20 years of dinners I don't think I have ever heard her say - well I drank (in her hay day) 1.5 bottles by myself so therefore let me chip in a bit more - never.

However I am not suggesting you split the bill 11 ways!!! just having a rant.... thanks for indulging me.

Schnauzer

Sassafrass

Thank you Annhig, Justineparis and TDudette for the kind comments. I learned from it also. As DH and my fortunes changed for the better, I came to be very cognizant of friends' different situations and mindful never to pick places they could not afford and to pick up the tab when I could do so without embarrassing them.

Schnauzer >"My experience over the years is that the people who eat the most and drink the most always suggest splitting the bill."

Sadly, that has often been my experience also. Schnauzer, you know you are not wrong, that woman is just rude and takes advantage as well as being cheap. I can afford it now, and don't say anything (one time), but if someone does that, I never go out with that person again.

DH and I were out with a family group one night. One person said, "Oh, I'll just put it on my credit card and you can all pay me back." We realized afterwards he had simply divided the bill by everyone there except his wife and himself. What a cheat and cheapskate! DH and I laughed about it - but never went out with them again.

The friends we travel with are so wonderful. We are always trying to do more for each other. Hope it is the same with Eliza61's group in Paris.

klondike

I sypmathize with your dilemma, having learned very early in life going out with a group of "friends" who throw their "share" on the table and leave early means you are going to get stuck paying for the shortage. Hard lesson and not one I planned on experiencing again.

Bottom line, in France, yes it is rude to ask for separate checks. (Germany, no problem)

It drives my husband crazy for us to sit in a restaurant and itemize, so my sisters and I do it privately back at the hotel (making sure the bill is itemized and legible before we leave--frequently in the little mom & pop places it's little more that a scrawl with dashes and numbers on a thin slip of paper).

If itemizing isn't an option, what about having the known heavy eaters/drinkers sit at one table and the light snackers/no booze/on a budgeters sit at another. This would make the most sense, but as others have noted earlier, it's often the big spenders that take offence at those wanting to itemize/experience spending accountability, so they probably wouldn't like this idea either.

Good luck, sincerely.

klondike

Oh, if you do the personal itemization/settling of accounts...it's pretty obvious people should have a stash of small bills/coins for ease of transactions...it always amazes me the people who know they are going to have to have to pay their share but come with only a large 50 or 100 to do so! GRRRR!

janisj

Before even dreaming of asking for separate bills . . . Check out my "six ladies . . " trip report ( click on my name)

That was only a group of 6 - I really did try to convince them (especially the separate check Nazi, llater to be called the separate check Queen).

Don't do it!

MissPrism

A complete digression, but Canon Chasuble has a dinner guest story. A colleague of his took a potential supplier to a good restaurant where he was known. After the meal, he left a £20 tip.
The next time he went in, the Maitre d' quietly said to him, "I think you should know, sir that after you left last time, your guest returned, removed the £20 and replaced it with a £10"
Needless to say, the guest didn't get an order.

Dukey1

This is a FAMILY???? I cannot believe that you refuse or cannot get this decided amongst yourselves. IOW pay ONE bill and then fight it out; why you would even think of putting some unsuspecting restaurant worker through this is beyond me.

mjdh1957

Interesting cultural observations.

In Germany, split bills are quite common, and waiters will often ask 'Getrennt oder zusammen?' (split or together) at the end of the meal when it's time to pay.

vincenzo32951

Eleven people are going to dine together on a regular basis? Everyone's going to get hungry at the same time? Want to eat in the same place?

That's what I call a close group.

Anyway, here's what I'd do: Have each person in the group take turns going over the bill and saying, "If you had the chicken and the two glasses of wine, you owe ..." If you had the fish and one glass of wine, you owe ..."

I hate the idea of sticking one person with the job all the time. I also hate the idea of bickering over who owes what. I'd rather eat by myself than do that.