Running of Bulls? Animal Abuse?
Jul 11th, 2005, 04:54 PM
#21
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Is this the same forum full of foodies who look for the best steakhouse or the most select duck or chickenor veal menus.
These bulls live free there whole lives are selected for their ferocity around 3 yrs old.
Then they are ceremonially
These bulls live free there whole lives are selected for their ferocity around 3 yrs old.
Then they are ceremonially
Jul 11th, 2005, 05:00 PM
#22
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s this the same forum full of foodies who look for the best steakhouse or the most select duck or chickenor veal menus.
These bulls live free there whole lives are selected for their ferocity around 3 yrs old.
Then they are ceremonially killed while risking the life of another human.
Meanwhile all you bleeding hearts are eating chicken which have been bred to fully mature in 3 weeks in inhuman conditions, eat veal picatta from an animal which has never seen the light of day. Wake up cows dont grow in those styrofoam containers.
Unless we become vegetarians the bulls life is not quite so bad, its true the bull never wins, but he at least has a nice life prior and goes out with a bang.
Kenderina will explain although I know from past posts she hates bullfights that the running of the bulls has its roots from bringing the bulls from the country into the city, poor novelinos (amateur fighters) would try to entice the bull for a minutes or two to maybe get noticed...
How many of the critics have even seen a bullfight or run the bulls.
I have
These bulls live free there whole lives are selected for their ferocity around 3 yrs old.
Then they are ceremonially killed while risking the life of another human.
Meanwhile all you bleeding hearts are eating chicken which have been bred to fully mature in 3 weeks in inhuman conditions, eat veal picatta from an animal which has never seen the light of day. Wake up cows dont grow in those styrofoam containers.
Unless we become vegetarians the bulls life is not quite so bad, its true the bull never wins, but he at least has a nice life prior and goes out with a bang.
Kenderina will explain although I know from past posts she hates bullfights that the running of the bulls has its roots from bringing the bulls from the country into the city, poor novelinos (amateur fighters) would try to entice the bull for a minutes or two to maybe get noticed...
How many of the critics have even seen a bullfight or run the bulls.
I have
Jul 11th, 2005, 05:12 PM
#23
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I totally agree, PalQ. It makes me totally sick that people could get a thrill watching animals tortured to death. Some sport! I'm sorry, but I don't mind at all when those crazy idiots running with the bulls get gored and stomped on. There - I said it!!
Jul 11th, 2005, 06:40 PM
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Yes, oneillchris is right, that is the origin of the Pamplona running of the bulls.
Someone asked what happens with the bulls after the running. The running finishes at the bullring where the "corrida" is held in the afternoon. The bulls are the same, running in the morning, "corrida" in the afternoon.
I don't hate it, I think I would have to be vegetarian if I do..and I'm not. Although I eat very few meat, really.
It's just I don't like it as a "show", the same way I don't like Stallone's films where they kill a hundred with a single bullet
Too much violence for me..
But I cannot be against it, it's very incoherent if you are not also against the way the animals are killed to eat them.
Someone asked what happens with the bulls after the running. The running finishes at the bullring where the "corrida" is held in the afternoon. The bulls are the same, running in the morning, "corrida" in the afternoon.
I don't hate it, I think I would have to be vegetarian if I do..and I'm not. Although I eat very few meat, really.
It's just I don't like it as a "show", the same way I don't like Stallone's films where they kill a hundred with a single bullet
Too much violence for me..But I cannot be against it, it's very incoherent if you are not also against the way the animals are killed to eat them.
Jul 11th, 2005, 07:02 PM
#26
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<<take the sword off the bullfighter and I will buy a ticket...>>
Then you should go to the bullring in Lisbon. Except for the last "round", it's all about the pageant and horsemanship.
No sword. No death in the ring. The event ends when the toreador (note: not <i>matador</i>, from the verb <i>matar</i>, to kill) immobilizes the bull with bare hands, one on each horn, staring the bull square in the face - - with three assistants rushing in either side of the neck to stabilize the situation.
Then you should go to the bullring in Lisbon. Except for the last "round", it's all about the pageant and horsemanship.
No sword. No death in the ring. The event ends when the toreador (note: not <i>matador</i>, from the verb <i>matar</i>, to kill) immobilizes the bull with bare hands, one on each horn, staring the bull square in the face - - with three assistants rushing in either side of the neck to stabilize the situation.
Jul 12th, 2005, 12:41 AM
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After reading this thread, by coincidence I was in B&N last might and started leafing through a book about Matadors and Bullfighting in Spain and read that it's not a universal tradition throughout the country, and in Barcelona, is frowned upon.
But I have seen Bullfights many years ago in Madrid.
At that time, I was about 18 years old, and I was moved and fascinated by the fantasy of "Death with Honor" and the pagentry.
Today, I would doubtless be sickened by the same experience, but unlike the slaughterhouses, at least the animals in the bullring have the chance to give back some of what they get, the individual death of the animal is noticed. And the Tourist dollar keeps on coming.
I have seen the stockyards of Oklahoma and Texas close-up while driving across the USA.
In the stockyards, I saw cattle standing in filth in the hot sun squeezed shoulder to shoulder by the hundreds (thousands?) waiting to be slaughtered as many as possible per hour.
There are no cheering crowds, or roses being tossed into the pens, but the sight of this appalled me beyond words, especially because we kind of ignore it, unlike bullfighting.
This, so, in our well-fed nation, we can enjoy our honored cultural tradition of the Backyard Barbeque and the Drive-Thru Hambrger Run with the kids on Saturday afternoon.
SInce I am mostly vegetarian, but still eat meat occasionally, and I enjoy wearing leather boots and jackets, (but not fur ones, and especially not mink!) I don't see how I could preach seriously to anyone about Bullfighting.
But I have seen Bullfights many years ago in Madrid.
At that time, I was about 18 years old, and I was moved and fascinated by the fantasy of "Death with Honor" and the pagentry.
Today, I would doubtless be sickened by the same experience, but unlike the slaughterhouses, at least the animals in the bullring have the chance to give back some of what they get, the individual death of the animal is noticed. And the Tourist dollar keeps on coming.
I have seen the stockyards of Oklahoma and Texas close-up while driving across the USA.
In the stockyards, I saw cattle standing in filth in the hot sun squeezed shoulder to shoulder by the hundreds (thousands?) waiting to be slaughtered as many as possible per hour.
There are no cheering crowds, or roses being tossed into the pens, but the sight of this appalled me beyond words, especially because we kind of ignore it, unlike bullfighting.
This, so, in our well-fed nation, we can enjoy our honored cultural tradition of the Backyard Barbeque and the Drive-Thru Hambrger Run with the kids on Saturday afternoon.
SInce I am mostly vegetarian, but still eat meat occasionally, and I enjoy wearing leather boots and jackets, (but not fur ones, and especially not mink!) I don't see how I could preach seriously to anyone about Bullfighting.
Jul 12th, 2005, 03:12 AM
#30
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Animal welfare is such a huge and varied issue its is impossible to say right and wrong in all cases. Yes some things are cultural like bull fights and Halal methods of killing animals for meat etc. (We have halal days at an abbatoir in Ireland to accommodate and reguate traitional slaughter for the Arab community).
I have seen a bullfight and yes I find it a bit greusome but was curious as well. Also it is right that in Portugal I hear the bull is not killed and it is more ceremony. My father grew up with little food and they could catch rabbits/hares for extra meat during lean times but this is survival. Another friend ate venison and squirrel growing up in pennsylvania and she is only in her 30's. I am just stating this as most will agree that in hunger it is acceptable to eat what you must in order to survive...even animals that are considered pets in other societies (Yes i know there is no famine any more in China/Korea etc. but there was and it created a precident to eat these foods). You will eat anything if you are starving.
What I do find worrying is the radical groups like in the UK that are harassing a family and village http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/s...re/3725702.stm . There moved to guinea pig farming due to harassment over other animals they farmed for medical use. One of the more vigilant protestors had cancer and was receiving treatment. This very treatment was created by the tests and use on animals. There are tests done to animals for most products but the more humane for research the better I agree...but if its between me or the monkey...the monkey will not stand a chance in my book. I sure rex can provide better info on how medicine and treatment would not be here without this process.
I have seen a bullfight and yes I find it a bit greusome but was curious as well. Also it is right that in Portugal I hear the bull is not killed and it is more ceremony. My father grew up with little food and they could catch rabbits/hares for extra meat during lean times but this is survival. Another friend ate venison and squirrel growing up in pennsylvania and she is only in her 30's. I am just stating this as most will agree that in hunger it is acceptable to eat what you must in order to survive...even animals that are considered pets in other societies (Yes i know there is no famine any more in China/Korea etc. but there was and it created a precident to eat these foods). You will eat anything if you are starving.
What I do find worrying is the radical groups like in the UK that are harassing a family and village http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/s...re/3725702.stm . There moved to guinea pig farming due to harassment over other animals they farmed for medical use. One of the more vigilant protestors had cancer and was receiving treatment. This very treatment was created by the tests and use on animals. There are tests done to animals for most products but the more humane for research the better I agree...but if its between me or the monkey...the monkey will not stand a chance in my book. I sure rex can provide better info on how medicine and treatment would not be here without this process.
Jul 12th, 2005, 05:30 AM
#31
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Animal rights can be a very complicated issue. I do agree that - under certain circumstances it may be necessary that animal be used in certain ways - but as few and as humanely as possible. (It is really necessary - although not nearly as much as is done now - in researching medicines. There is no possible excuse for it being done to make lipstick red # 112 for Revlon.)
As for the abuses of the food industry - they are unanswerable and should be abolished. (You can buy free range chickens you know.)
What differs in bullfighting - what makes it so much more horrifying - is the pageantry - the glorification of the torturing of the animal - that diminishes the humanity of all who take part.
As for the abuses of the food industry - they are unanswerable and should be abolished. (You can buy free range chickens you know.)
What differs in bullfighting - what makes it so much more horrifying - is the pageantry - the glorification of the torturing of the animal - that diminishes the humanity of all who take part.
Jul 12th, 2005, 05:57 AM
#32
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PalQ,
My Mom would be more upset at Bunol's Tomato Fest (La Tomatina) festival because of all the wated food. She grew up poor (depression era child) and to waste food was about the worst sin there was. However, to have a pagent and to celebrate food would be okay, just not wasting it by throwing it like baseballs.
Haven't been to a bullfight, didn't want to when I was in Mexico.
Does anyone know what happens to the bulls afterwards? Are the bulls discarded or is the meat used as food?
My Mom would be more upset at Bunol's Tomato Fest (La Tomatina) festival because of all the wated food. She grew up poor (depression era child) and to waste food was about the worst sin there was. However, to have a pagent and to celebrate food would be okay, just not wasting it by throwing it like baseballs.
Haven't been to a bullfight, didn't want to when I was in Mexico.
Does anyone know what happens to the bulls afterwards? Are the bulls discarded or is the meat used as food?
Jul 12th, 2005, 07:08 AM
#34
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ncgrrl, the bull's meat is used as food and it's quite expensive, probably because the bulls are the best breeded animals, they just eat natural food.
The Tomatina is held in a region where is easier to find a tomato than a stone. The origin of the celebration is a season where there were so much tomatoes that they were unable to sell them or make any profit..so they give them to the town's people. Some of the boys in the village began to play with them..and that's how it all began.
Today they use tomatoes that are not very good to eat or even grow them just for that day.
I think is a kind of celebration that only can be fully understood here at the Comunidad Valenciana ..because vegetables and fruit are very common in our diet and there's plenty in the markets. What is not sold in the day, are not kept, they just give them to convents and associations that help homeless people.
The Tomatina is held in a region where is easier to find a tomato than a stone. The origin of the celebration is a season where there were so much tomatoes that they were unable to sell them or make any profit..so they give them to the town's people. Some of the boys in the village began to play with them..and that's how it all began.
Today they use tomatoes that are not very good to eat or even grow them just for that day.
I think is a kind of celebration that only can be fully understood here at the Comunidad Valenciana ..because vegetables and fruit are very common in our diet and there's plenty in the markets. What is not sold in the day, are not kept, they just give them to convents and associations that help homeless people.
Jul 12th, 2005, 07:48 AM
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Kenderina,
Thanks for an explanation of the history of the festival.
Yes, it's true, you do need to know the history to understand the importance.
I don't see my Mom throwing tomatoes at anyone. She'd can them or make sauce or do something with them. The lessons learned in childhood stay with you throughout life.
Thanks for an explanation of the history of the festival.
Yes, it's true, you do need to know the history to understand the importance.
I don't see my Mom throwing tomatoes at anyone. She'd can them or make sauce or do something with them. The lessons learned in childhood stay with you throughout life.
Jul 12th, 2005, 08:15 AM
#36
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I think the best thing to do is put your money where your mouth is. When I came back from India last year and was so appalled at their treatment of animals, I started donating money to the World Society for the Protection of Animals. They lobby governments to change animal cruelty laws and set up sanctuaries for abused animals. They are in the process right now of lobbying the Spanish government to outlaw bullfighting, as well as bear bile farming in China, the seal hunt in Canada, etc. They managed to convince Turkey to outlaw "dancing bears" and are trying to convince India to do the same.
Jul 12th, 2005, 09:02 AM
#37
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Frankly I couldn't care less. I also adore veal and fois gras (let's face it, geese are odious creatures..) and I was terribly annoyed when they banned fox hunting in this country - who on earth cares about those miserable vermin?
I was at school with a girl whose family hunted - they woke up one morning to discover their 6 horses slaughtered (and it will have been a slow death as they were stabbed with rather small knives). Animal 'rights' activists left their calling card....
I was at school with a girl whose family hunted - they woke up one morning to discover their 6 horses slaughtered (and it will have been a slow death as they were stabbed with rather small knives). Animal 'rights' activists left their calling card....
Jul 12th, 2005, 09:15 AM
#38
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Actually many people dont know that tomatino fiesta celebrations happen in many towns and some are as big as brunols, take for example Tarazona a small town near zaragoza. They call it the Cipotegato and of course the main fun is to pit each pena (gang) against the other, but in this one they dress a clown (Jester) who is paraded through town on the shoulders of his buddies, all the meanwhile being pelted with tomatoes. It is a great honor, I was to be a candidate to be chosen the next year but when this Cipotegato (jester) took off his mask he was black and blue.
Sorry I did digress from Bullfighting, we did not mention the ultimate tapas in the bullfighting bars is the cohones or bulls balls, I cant remember the price but it was very$$$$$.
I think that anyone wanting a great bullfighting book and some literary history should read Death in the afternoon, after reading this you will understand the great moral divide between the meat eaters who cill cows and alike all day, and the glorious life of a bull and of course again like the cow eventually killed. If anyone thinks the cow does better than the bull than they have never experienced an abbatoir.
Sorry I did digress from Bullfighting, we did not mention the ultimate tapas in the bullfighting bars is the cohones or bulls balls, I cant remember the price but it was very$$$$$.
I think that anyone wanting a great bullfighting book and some literary history should read Death in the afternoon, after reading this you will understand the great moral divide between the meat eaters who cill cows and alike all day, and the glorious life of a bull and of course again like the cow eventually killed. If anyone thinks the cow does better than the bull than they have never experienced an abbatoir.
Jul 12th, 2005, 09:17 AM
#39
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Who on earth cares about fox vermin? Funny but the B&B i stayed at in Eltham, suburban London, the old lady had what she called a 'pet fox' - i had seen the fox lurking around her backyard when returning a couple of times and asked her if she were afraid it would hurt her cherished cats. She said no - it was her pet fox and she regularly bought chicken remains from the local butcher to feed it - she says the fox often lounges on the shed whilst the cat lays in the grass below. I don't know the fox looked pretty dirty to me, kind of like the word vermin implies, but it surprised me that some folks feed foxes, which i see along rail lines all over London.
Jul 12th, 2005, 12:03 PM
#40
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What an interesting thread, and it's amazing how often this topic comes up!
I don't think the running of the bulls by itself is abuse. Running the bulls through the streets while men full of testostrone try to outrun them is just, um, well, silly to my mind. But that is just me.
As far as bullfighting? It's individual, but I would never think to judge an entire country by this. I've been to a bullfight in Mexico because I was curious. Yes, the bulls died - not a real surprise. What was a surprise was the way the locals boo'ed the participants because they were tiring the bulls, making them less able to fight. Did it make me want to see another one? Not particularly, not at that time.
Strangely enough, I recently read "Death in the Afternoon" by Hemingway because of my upcoming trip to Spain, and that book has completely turned my viewpoint about bullfighting. The book does explain bullfighting very well (though dated), for some reason knowing the whys about bullfighting really turned me off about it.
I don't think the running of the bulls by itself is abuse. Running the bulls through the streets while men full of testostrone try to outrun them is just, um, well, silly to my mind. But that is just me.
As far as bullfighting? It's individual, but I would never think to judge an entire country by this. I've been to a bullfight in Mexico because I was curious. Yes, the bulls died - not a real surprise. What was a surprise was the way the locals boo'ed the participants because they were tiring the bulls, making them less able to fight. Did it make me want to see another one? Not particularly, not at that time.
Strangely enough, I recently read "Death in the Afternoon" by Hemingway because of my upcoming trip to Spain, and that book has completely turned my viewpoint about bullfighting. The book does explain bullfighting very well (though dated), for some reason knowing the whys about bullfighting really turned me off about it.
