Riots in Greece
Dec 10th, 2008 | 10:23 AM
#21
Joined: May 2003
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Marsh i live in Athens and all these riots are very very unpleasant! But it's really absurd to postpone a trip to Greece for next summer due all that. I believe that in two weeks time life will return back to normal!
After all if you don't feel comfortable just skip Athens...
After all if you don't feel comfortable just skip Athens...
Dec 10th, 2008 | 10:36 AM
#22
Joined: May 2006
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We just got back from Greece last night after visiting our daughter who is studying this semester in Athens in the Prangrati area (and I plan to comment on the subject in my trip report - if I can ever get it finished).
Here are my thoughts for what it's worth.
First, I absolutely would NOT postpone/cancel any trip I was planning in the near or far future. Yes, the current situation is certainly disconcerting. According to news reports when we were there, our own observations, and her professors (who are all from Greece) its been several decades since Greece has seen this level of discontent. Much of this is directed at the current government and the unfortunate death of the student appears by most measure as a catalyst/excuse (depending on your viewpoint) for the demonstrations and violence. And as others have said, Greece certainly has had its share of activists groups for years.
The more violent outbreaks have been in certain areas in central Athens such as the University, Parliament/Syntagma Plaza, etc (although there were reported attempts yesterday to start a fire at the National Arch. Museum which failed). We did see videos of some stores on fire in the Syntagma area which we had just visited a few days before (admittedly, that was a little disconcerting).
We avoided these areas in the past few days and experienced no problems and it certainly appeared that Athenians were for the most part going on with their lives as usual.
Daughter is getting daily emails from her school and the US Embassy and their advice is rather common sense - stay out of the areas which have experienced the violence, be vigilant and don't take unnecessary risks.
We loved our trip to Greece. As I said, it's much, much too early to even consider putting off a trip next year based upon the present state of affairs.
Here are my thoughts for what it's worth.
First, I absolutely would NOT postpone/cancel any trip I was planning in the near or far future. Yes, the current situation is certainly disconcerting. According to news reports when we were there, our own observations, and her professors (who are all from Greece) its been several decades since Greece has seen this level of discontent. Much of this is directed at the current government and the unfortunate death of the student appears by most measure as a catalyst/excuse (depending on your viewpoint) for the demonstrations and violence. And as others have said, Greece certainly has had its share of activists groups for years.
The more violent outbreaks have been in certain areas in central Athens such as the University, Parliament/Syntagma Plaza, etc (although there were reported attempts yesterday to start a fire at the National Arch. Museum which failed). We did see videos of some stores on fire in the Syntagma area which we had just visited a few days before (admittedly, that was a little disconcerting).
We avoided these areas in the past few days and experienced no problems and it certainly appeared that Athenians were for the most part going on with their lives as usual.
Daughter is getting daily emails from her school and the US Embassy and their advice is rather common sense - stay out of the areas which have experienced the violence, be vigilant and don't take unnecessary risks.
We loved our trip to Greece. As I said, it's much, much too early to even consider putting off a trip next year based upon the present state of affairs.
Dec 10th, 2008 | 11:41 AM
#23
Joined: Jan 2003
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This may have been the beginning of the rioting http://latestnews.virginmedia.com/ne...?vmsrc=pamread
According to this article, "Hundreds of migrants waiting to submit asylum applications rioted in central Athens, setting fire to rubbish bins and attacking passing cars." This article was from Dec.6. In Greece since I have first gone almost 30 years ago the anacharists have demonstrated and became involved in riots. It is hard to know whether their involvement now is designed to bring down the center right government. Anyway, I am sure, simular to in France, they will get the rioting under control. If you watch Euronews, they are starting to arrest more rioters. Interestingly many of the demonstrators I saw on Euronews who were being arrested didn't appear Greek in Nationality.
According to this article, "Hundreds of migrants waiting to submit asylum applications rioted in central Athens, setting fire to rubbish bins and attacking passing cars." This article was from Dec.6. In Greece since I have first gone almost 30 years ago the anacharists have demonstrated and became involved in riots. It is hard to know whether their involvement now is designed to bring down the center right government. Anyway, I am sure, simular to in France, they will get the rioting under control. If you watch Euronews, they are starting to arrest more rioters. Interestingly many of the demonstrators I saw on Euronews who were being arrested didn't appear Greek in Nationality.
Dec 10th, 2008 | 08:34 PM
#25
Original Poster
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Well, it looks as though I might be safer in Athens than I am here at Fodors! I have traveled to a lot of countries in the past 13 years and have seen a few demonstrations, but nothing violent. I do live in a small (6,000 folks) town, which I consider to be fairly safe. I will continue my planning for a trip to Greece, since I'm not getting any younger!
Dec 11th, 2008 | 09:26 AM
#28
Joined: Jun 2008
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One reason my previous post brought up the need for more information and a deeper perspective, beyond the news camera's eye:
where on a severity scale is this event (I won't call it a crisis)between a US fraternity trashing a party-house, English hooligans throwing smoke bombs at a football/soccer game, Greek students' frequent political demonstrations (maybe just in city center), and civil war?
dfr4848, while your comments and your willingness to leave your daughter behind sound reassuring, I am looking forward to your more detailed report, to understand the danger and travel disruption level for a tourist, and whether I'd want my student daughter or son to be so close to such a level of violence.
I notice the embassy alerts downplaying the severity of the event; about a year ago foreign embassies' warnings to their citizens were promptly criticized by the Greek govt as unnecessarily destabilizing. In interpreting the reaction of the US embassy, one could could compare with the official positions taken during recent disturbances in Georgia, Bali, Yemen, Lebanon, Bagdad (Google search "warden messages"
.
At the extreme, the anarchists' provocations remind me of the anti-WTO demonstrations in 1997 Seattle: the globalization issue was driven home with senseless destruction of property by anarchist elements. I watched BBC TV's report of this Tuesday's events in Athens: one cameraman was kneeling right in front of the attackers, tracking the Molotov cocktails flying over his head toward the police; it almost looked as if the demonstrators were performing for the cameras, as if the media were no longer just passively recording the events. It was also hard to believe the many bystanders watching the fireworks.
So far the police appear to have achieved their controversial objective of no aggressive response, which could potentially lead to human casualties and higher tension.
where on a severity scale is this event (I won't call it a crisis)between a US fraternity trashing a party-house, English hooligans throwing smoke bombs at a football/soccer game, Greek students' frequent political demonstrations (maybe just in city center), and civil war?
dfr4848, while your comments and your willingness to leave your daughter behind sound reassuring, I am looking forward to your more detailed report, to understand the danger and travel disruption level for a tourist, and whether I'd want my student daughter or son to be so close to such a level of violence.
I notice the embassy alerts downplaying the severity of the event; about a year ago foreign embassies' warnings to their citizens were promptly criticized by the Greek govt as unnecessarily destabilizing. In interpreting the reaction of the US embassy, one could could compare with the official positions taken during recent disturbances in Georgia, Bali, Yemen, Lebanon, Bagdad (Google search "warden messages"
.At the extreme, the anarchists' provocations remind me of the anti-WTO demonstrations in 1997 Seattle: the globalization issue was driven home with senseless destruction of property by anarchist elements. I watched BBC TV's report of this Tuesday's events in Athens: one cameraman was kneeling right in front of the attackers, tracking the Molotov cocktails flying over his head toward the police; it almost looked as if the demonstrators were performing for the cameras, as if the media were no longer just passively recording the events. It was also hard to believe the many bystanders watching the fireworks.
So far the police appear to have achieved their controversial objective of no aggressive response, which could potentially lead to human casualties and higher tension.
Dec 11th, 2008 | 01:24 PM
#29
Joined: Nov 2008
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For comparison, one could also check the US Warden Messages for:
- Belgrade, Serbia during the violent demonstrations following Kosovo's declaration of independence https://www.osac.gov/Reports/report.cfm?contentID=88225 , also after the arrest of the fugitive Radovan Karadjic
- last week's terrorist events in Mumbai, India https://www.osac.gov/Reports/report.cfm?contentID=94161 .
Important to realize that this is an internal affairs protest (I shouldn't call it a crisis), not directed against foreign citizens.
- Belgrade, Serbia during the violent demonstrations following Kosovo's declaration of independence https://www.osac.gov/Reports/report.cfm?contentID=88225 , also after the arrest of the fugitive Radovan Karadjic
- last week's terrorist events in Mumbai, India https://www.osac.gov/Reports/report.cfm?contentID=94161 .
Important to realize that this is an internal affairs protest (I shouldn't call it a crisis), not directed against foreign citizens.
Dec 11th, 2008 | 07:47 PM
#31
Joined: Jan 2006
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This topic is one that highlights the difference between Fodor's Forum Greece section, and the Greece section of Trip Advisor Forum. The participants there include a LOT of people actually living in Athens and elsewhere in Greece -- English speaking Greeks (including a guy named "gas" who is an actual tech student at U of Athens), UK people who have moved to Greece, UK and Scandinavian people who go to greece several times a year and many English, American and Australians who are married to Greeks and raising families there. Not like this forum which is mostly US folks wondering an guessing.
on TA forum there has been clear-headed discussion of what is actuallly happening, in "real time," and the many reasons for it -- the accumulated frustration with a do-nothing govt, high unemployment , the student pent-up anger at education that doesn't lead to jobs, and more. This is QUITe separate from the small but persistent anarchist bunch. And it has NOTHING to do with civil war. Greeks know all about civil war... it ravaged them 60 years ago and they want nothing to do with it.
If you're worried or want an on-site report, go to TA.
on TA forum there has been clear-headed discussion of what is actuallly happening, in "real time," and the many reasons for it -- the accumulated frustration with a do-nothing govt, high unemployment , the student pent-up anger at education that doesn't lead to jobs, and more. This is QUITe separate from the small but persistent anarchist bunch. And it has NOTHING to do with civil war. Greeks know all about civil war... it ravaged them 60 years ago and they want nothing to do with it.
If you're worried or want an on-site report, go to TA.
Dec 11th, 2008 | 10:07 PM
#32
Joined: Jun 2008
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Janet, it may help to tell the forum where on TA to find the discussions you're alluding to: could you mean http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowForum...93-Attica.html ? and among the several relevant ones the threads "Athens riot"?
Yes, I find the information useful; as I observe, while ignoring the strong opinions and the flaming by the locals against "ignorant" non-locals (maybe Greek emigrants). And the fighting over the loaded meaning of terms like "anarchist" and "terrorist" (when one doesn't use the same dictionary and the same context).
In the interest of moderation, I'd like to change my heavy term "civil war", which I used in my previous post, wondering about a proper scale for the events, and in light of these demonstrating students quoting the violent armed political conflicts in Greece's past.
Let me replace it with the term "civil unrest" which has a more relevant definition http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_disorder ? Unrest to the point of asking for the resignation of the government.
There is a yet unanswered question on that TA thread tonight: short of the president and the ministers being unreachable, why sack and burn the shops as an alternate target? I don't recall any aggression against other symbols of affluence, like banks, luxury transport, post office, or large hotels.
Yes, I find the information useful; as I observe, while ignoring the strong opinions and the flaming by the locals against "ignorant" non-locals (maybe Greek emigrants). And the fighting over the loaded meaning of terms like "anarchist" and "terrorist" (when one doesn't use the same dictionary and the same context).
In the interest of moderation, I'd like to change my heavy term "civil war", which I used in my previous post, wondering about a proper scale for the events, and in light of these demonstrating students quoting the violent armed political conflicts in Greece's past.
Let me replace it with the term "civil unrest" which has a more relevant definition http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_disorder ? Unrest to the point of asking for the resignation of the government.
There is a yet unanswered question on that TA thread tonight: short of the president and the ministers being unreachable, why sack and burn the shops as an alternate target? I don't recall any aggression against other symbols of affluence, like banks, luxury transport, post office, or large hotels.
Dec 12th, 2008 | 05:34 AM
#33
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 3,220
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Dreamer2 - no I'm not from Concord. We live in Houston.
tableronde - I'd be lying if I said we left our daughter in Athens without some trepidation. If we had had any serious concerns for her immediate welfare, we wouldn't have done so.
Communicated with daughter early this morning (about 11 am today Greek time). Her update FWIW: The most violent attacks still seem to be concentrated in the Parliament/Syntagma and Univerity areas. Some protestors (faction unknown or not reported) occupied part of Nat Bank of Greece headquarters and some employees fled, but current status unknown. The area where she lives and goes to school (Pangrati) is primarily residental and has not seen any demonstations, as of yet.
Her semester ends next Wed and many students, including her, are scheduled to fly out next Fri, the 19th. School has arranged for a bus to take them to the airport - which is a welcome development.
tableronde - I'd be lying if I said we left our daughter in Athens without some trepidation. If we had had any serious concerns for her immediate welfare, we wouldn't have done so.
Communicated with daughter early this morning (about 11 am today Greek time). Her update FWIW: The most violent attacks still seem to be concentrated in the Parliament/Syntagma and Univerity areas. Some protestors (faction unknown or not reported) occupied part of Nat Bank of Greece headquarters and some employees fled, but current status unknown. The area where she lives and goes to school (Pangrati) is primarily residental and has not seen any demonstations, as of yet.
Her semester ends next Wed and many students, including her, are scheduled to fly out next Fri, the 19th. School has arranged for a bus to take them to the airport - which is a welcome development.
Dec 12th, 2008 | 08:33 AM
#34
Joined: Nov 2008
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Travelerjan is right about some of the TA threads, by Greek members on location, setting a different tone. Other sensitive topics such as Macedonia and Albania have generated discussion more volatile than I consider tolerant for a forum; the moderator has had to intervene several times and delete posts.
I assume that these posts don't come from the extremist elements. The severity of the situation, and its implications, lie somewhere between the widely different views expressed.
Interestingly, here is what I don't see (yet): any posts putting blame on the students, any serious anger by the silent majority against the destruction of property.
If one believes the news sources, then the 5th day is also seeing demonstrations, and attacks against banks, a radio station, even insult of the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier.
Such highly polarized approach to problem solving makes me wonder: what does it take for a constructive consensus to be reached among the Greeks? and before things get out of hand.
I assume that these posts don't come from the extremist elements. The severity of the situation, and its implications, lie somewhere between the widely different views expressed.
Interestingly, here is what I don't see (yet): any posts putting blame on the students, any serious anger by the silent majority against the destruction of property.
If one believes the news sources, then the 5th day is also seeing demonstrations, and attacks against banks, a radio station, even insult of the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier.
Such highly polarized approach to problem solving makes me wonder: what does it take for a constructive consensus to be reached among the Greeks? and before things get out of hand.
Dec 12th, 2008 | 10:06 AM
#35
Joined: May 2006
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tr2: <...any serious anger by silent majority against destruction of property>
Interesting you mentioned that. Daughter said she heard on a broadcast last night that there was a report that some shop owners and business people were forming their own rather vocal protests about the lack of protection of businesses by the government; and that in one instance a group of owners in the Syntagma area had been organized that had begun fighting those who were attacking the stores.
The silent majority may not be so silent any more.
Interesting you mentioned that. Daughter said she heard on a broadcast last night that there was a report that some shop owners and business people were forming their own rather vocal protests about the lack of protection of businesses by the government; and that in one instance a group of owners in the Syntagma area had been organized that had begun fighting those who were attacking the stores.
The silent majority may not be so silent any more.
Dec 13th, 2008 | 10:17 AM
#36
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 101
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Now that the heat of immediate events is subsiding, reporting the news is giving way to analyzing the causes.
For those of you interested in the spectrum of opinions on this country we love to visit, one can go beyond the international press editorials to:
- the TA thread mentioned above: it was shut down after 58 posts; the moderator justified it as "straying too far from travel subjects"
- another similar site (currently 71 message in German) contains opinions from Greek expatriates and frequent travelers; Germany's Greek diaspora allegedly numbers approx. 350,000. One interesting comment: why is there so much talk about historically pent up feelings, when with Greece learn to look into the future?
- http://livingingreece.gr/2008/12/10/greek-riot-police/ : interview with a Greek riot policeman (special forces)
- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4g97U8qu-4 : interview with a previous US ambassador to Greece
- local paper Ekhatimerini English edition: I don't know whose views it represents, but I am not happy with its take on the background
My fledgling Greek isn't good enough to read the blogs by Athens students, parents, professors, residents, etc. Maybe another Fodorite could pitch in.
For those of you interested in the spectrum of opinions on this country we love to visit, one can go beyond the international press editorials to:
- the TA thread mentioned above: it was shut down after 58 posts; the moderator justified it as "straying too far from travel subjects"
- another similar site (currently 71 message in German) contains opinions from Greek expatriates and frequent travelers; Germany's Greek diaspora allegedly numbers approx. 350,000. One interesting comment: why is there so much talk about historically pent up feelings, when with Greece learn to look into the future?
- http://livingingreece.gr/2008/12/10/greek-riot-police/ : interview with a Greek riot policeman (special forces)
- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4g97U8qu-4 : interview with a previous US ambassador to Greece
- local paper Ekhatimerini English edition: I don't know whose views it represents, but I am not happy with its take on the background
My fledgling Greek isn't good enough to read the blogs by Athens students, parents, professors, residents, etc. Maybe another Fodorite could pitch in.
Dec 13th, 2008 | 10:35 AM
#37
Joined: Jun 2008
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Correction to the second bullet above "... when WILL Greece learn to look AT the future?".
- LIKE people have done in post-nazi Germany, Northern Ireland after many years or religious conflict, adaptation to the EU in the Czech Republic, Poland, Hungary
- UNLIKE southern Italy still clinging to the past, Serbian conflicts with its ethnic minorities
Maybe hitting closer to groups (economic) at home: Detroit automakers and employees adapting to the new realities, before car transport goes the way of railroads.
- LIKE people have done in post-nazi Germany, Northern Ireland after many years or religious conflict, adaptation to the EU in the Czech Republic, Poland, Hungary
- UNLIKE southern Italy still clinging to the past, Serbian conflicts with its ethnic minorities
Maybe hitting closer to groups (economic) at home: Detroit automakers and employees adapting to the new realities, before car transport goes the way of railroads.
Dec 13th, 2008 | 03:12 PM
#38
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 4,258
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Tableronde, maybe the young people in the US would be getting restive if they confronted graduating from college and over 10% of them unable to get a job, and those who CAN get a job earn so little that they often have to live with their parents until after age 30 ....
You have been to Greece once, and have not yet met a number of Greeks who struggling to live, who do NOT own hotels or restaurants in tourist meccas ... the average Greek does NOT have many worldly goods; a TV, a small fridge & stove, a cell phone, one small car maybe, a few olive trees on Grandpa's back 40 ... No stereo, no SUV, no fancy computers or electronic games or gadgets (in many towns the internet cafes close to the public in the AM so that school chldren can have lessons -- the schools can't afford PCs). Luckily, Greeks are used to living simply ... but youth is getting discouraged, frustrated, thus angry.
Perhaps you remember a period in the USA when (dare I say spoiled?) American Collegians rioted over not only the draft, but "Free Speech" (profanity in school papers), too many campus laws etc. How many people who demonstrated in 1968-72 are still working for social justice today? Were you in college then? Did you demonstrate? Were you drafted? What involvement do you have now in the causes that were in the air then?
A lot of questions without answers ... and Greek youth are looking for answers too.
You have been to Greece once, and have not yet met a number of Greeks who struggling to live, who do NOT own hotels or restaurants in tourist meccas ... the average Greek does NOT have many worldly goods; a TV, a small fridge & stove, a cell phone, one small car maybe, a few olive trees on Grandpa's back 40 ... No stereo, no SUV, no fancy computers or electronic games or gadgets (in many towns the internet cafes close to the public in the AM so that school chldren can have lessons -- the schools can't afford PCs). Luckily, Greeks are used to living simply ... but youth is getting discouraged, frustrated, thus angry.
Perhaps you remember a period in the USA when (dare I say spoiled?) American Collegians rioted over not only the draft, but "Free Speech" (profanity in school papers), too many campus laws etc. How many people who demonstrated in 1968-72 are still working for social justice today? Were you in college then? Did you demonstrate? Were you drafted? What involvement do you have now in the causes that were in the air then?
A lot of questions without answers ... and Greek youth are looking for answers too.
Dec 15th, 2008 | 06:44 PM
#39
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 10
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Re the socio-economic-political discussion of the student protest on TripAdvisor: the moderator had closed the previous thread, but it popped up again today at
http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowTopic...ns_Attica.html
The nice Greek family I visited this fall had a teenage son and daughter, so I am interested in more than just tourist attractions. And a friend's daughter is thinking of spending a semester in Ioannina.
So I sure hope that the Fodor's moderator doesn't consider this thread is irrelevant.
http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowTopic...ns_Attica.html
The nice Greek family I visited this fall had a teenage son and daughter, so I am interested in more than just tourist attractions. And a friend's daughter is thinking of spending a semester in Ioannina.
So I sure hope that the Fodor's moderator doesn't consider this thread is irrelevant.
Dec 19th, 2008 | 01:51 PM
#40
Joined: Nov 2008
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I am one of the people Travelerjan is referring to (Hi Jan!), I am British & live in Greece. I was in Athens earlier this month & am going back on the 28th Dec, with no hesitation at all.
The Greek television is obviously broadcasting daily, a lot more than you will ever see, there is something on the news continuously, but it is always the same few bits of film over & over again in a few areas. If there was more going on they wouldn't need to use the same bits of footage would they? If this was as bad or as widespread as the media tries to make out I would not be going on the 28th, which I am doing by choice. There is something going on most days, but the majority of it is demonstrations, not riots, but the media don't cover the peaceful protests, there's no money in that! When has the media been any different? Sensationalism is their business.
I have many friends in Athens, they contact me by phone, text or email daily so I have had a more honest view of the events on which to base my decision of visiting Athens again. No contest, a small minority causing problems in a few areas will not stop me enjoying all the rest of what Athens has to offer!
Just in response to this previous post:
<There's no reason a tourist should get caught up in it (although Athens should be avoided like the plague in any case as it's an absolute hell-hole)>
I disagree, the more I visit, the more I love it, you just need to research where to go & experience the real Athens & the great atmosphere & vibe that is there waiting for you!
The Greek television is obviously broadcasting daily, a lot more than you will ever see, there is something on the news continuously, but it is always the same few bits of film over & over again in a few areas. If there was more going on they wouldn't need to use the same bits of footage would they? If this was as bad or as widespread as the media tries to make out I would not be going on the 28th, which I am doing by choice. There is something going on most days, but the majority of it is demonstrations, not riots, but the media don't cover the peaceful protests, there's no money in that! When has the media been any different? Sensationalism is their business.
I have many friends in Athens, they contact me by phone, text or email daily so I have had a more honest view of the events on which to base my decision of visiting Athens again. No contest, a small minority causing problems in a few areas will not stop me enjoying all the rest of what Athens has to offer!
Just in response to this previous post:
<There's no reason a tourist should get caught up in it (although Athens should be avoided like the plague in any case as it's an absolute hell-hole)>
I disagree, the more I visit, the more I love it, you just need to research where to go & experience the real Athens & the great atmosphere & vibe that is there waiting for you!
