DickPatterson

I've been away from the Forum for awhile, but I noticed another thread today from someone who received a notice regarding a traffic violation that is said to have occurred several months ago during a trip to Italy. I have commented on several threads dealing with fines for driving in zones, usually the central historic zone, restricted to cars belonging to residents. People typically get a charge on their credit card for about 50 dollars nine months to a year after their trip. This first charge is from the car rental company for furnishing the identity of the driver to the local authorities. Then the notice(s) from the authorities start to arrive, demanding around 120 dollars for each offense. Some people have said that many countries have zones like this, so I have repeatedly asked for people to describe how comparable situations were handled by other European countries. While some people have told of their experiences with speeding or other violations in other countries, I don't believe anyone has related a truly comparable experience. I would like to restrict this thread to traffic offenses where the driver entered a restricted traffic zone in a European country other than Italy. When (how long after your trip) did you receive the charge from the rental car company for furnishing identifying information, and how much was it? When did you receive the traffic violation notice from the local authorities, how much was the fine, and were you given clear instructions for a reasonable appeals process?

I consider myself an Italophile (my last ten European trips have been to Italy), but there are things I dislike about Italy, and the way this situation is handled fits in with those things. In my opinion, the information charge from the rental company is exorbitant (I believe the amount of this charge is influenced by the culture), the fines are exorbitant, the length of time it takes to be notified of the offense is too much, and one is not given a reasonable chance to appeal. (How can one remember the details and prepare a defense when the alleged infraction occurred almost a year ago? If it takes them a year to notify you, why would you assume that the traffic authorities perform efficiently when it comes to making sure the traffic signs are clearly visible -- I noticed in my recent trip to Sicily that many traffic signs were hidden by tree limbs.) But let's gather some data before we reach our conclusions. Let's hear from travelers to other European countries who were fined for the specific offense of entering a restricted traffic zone.

Michael

Doesn't London have a restricted zone?

Ackislander

All of central London is a restricted zone. Fines, if unpaid, can range up to 180GP. Don't know if the new government has made changes.

DickPatterson

Well, that's a start. The fine seems high, but we need to know the rest in order to compare: When (how long after your trip) did you receive the charge from the rental car company for furnishing identifying information, and how much was it? When did you receive the traffic violation notice from the local authorities, how much was the fine, and were you given clear instructions for a reasonable appeals process?

jamikins

I think you are referring to our congenstion zone - info can be found here: http://www.tfl.gov.uk/roadusers/congestioncharging/

nukesafe

I'm a bit puzzled, Dick. Once you gather this information, what good will it do you? It is what it is. Some countries/cities have restricted traffic zones. Live with it. You can have little or no influence on how they administer the program; either the amount of the fines, timing of the notification, or the appeals process. Life is not always fair.

Now, if you merely wish to be informed on which area have this restrictions so you can avoid driving in those cities, I can see some point, but I would think the local car rental agencies would have more pertinent information than we do here on this forum.

DickPatterson

nukesafe, I was reacting to some of the postings on the other threads about this where some people don't understand and cannot empathize with those who feel shocked and offended when they start receiving charges on their credit cards many months after their trips. They get on their high horse and say, "You do the crime, you do the time," etc. They say many countries have these zones, it's not just an Italy thing, tourists get tickets in every country, etc. My contention has always been that it's the way Italy does it that upsets us. If they were to send us timely notices, with reasonable fines, with reasonable administrative charges from the rental car companies, with a well explained reasonable appeals process, I suspect that almost all of us would just pay the fines and chalk it up to experience. One person said you're never going to change Italy; that is probably true no matter what, but it's definitely true if we just accept it and pay these fines. Maybe if we write to Italian Embassies and say we think the Italian authorities are giving tourists the feeling that they don't really care how we feel about their country, that they just want us to pay and pay for every false step we took while there. If we can compare the Italian way of handling this situation to the way other European countries do, it could add some weight to our statements. I think that to debate the usefulness of this would take us off track. I've read complaints only from travelers to Italy. That doesn't say to me that travelers to Italy are the scofflaws and whiners, but rather that the other countries have a better way of handling this. So please, let's hear how they do it. If they all do it this way (or in an even more punitive way), I'll back off. BTW, I tried very hard to drive responsibly and obey the traffic laws on my October trip to Sicily, but I'm holding my breath wondering whether I'm going to start receiving credit card charges and demands for hundreds of dollars in fines sometime in the next year or so.

Michael

There are two things to consider: The rental agencies are gouging, and then there are the fines. But one cannot blame Italy for the rental agencies. I suspect that this type of gouging is universal. Look at the fees that are tacked in large U.S. cities if your car is towed for parking illegally.

I'm waiting to see what happens and hear the howls of protest when the Golden Gate bridge toll goes completely digital as planned (no toll collectors, no prevision for credit card payments, at least according to the preliminary reports) and the renter gets a notice with a processing fee from his rental agency, a fee that might be higher than the toll itself. Or the local rental agencies will automatically charge every renter more for the car, making a profit on the difference between those who did cross the GG bridge and those who did not. But no one will complain, chalking up the high cost to generally higher costs in a high tourist area.

Fines are high everywhere. For blocking two feet of a nine foot wide public part of your driveway with a parked car, the fine in SF is $100.

fmpden

I still do not see the point for asking the question. Nor do I see Italy acting any different than any other toll agency. Just that the time line is longer. We have a similar situation with the toll road (E470) around Denver. If you do not have a RF device in your vehicle, they photograph your license plate and send you a bill. By the time it filters through the rent car company it is expensive. In this case it is hard to avoid the toll road. Rental companies had been offering an additional daily fee to cover the tolls but it is something like $10/day. Cost of traveling.

DickPatterson

The experiences related so far are similar to some degree. But I would like to get as close to the "ticket received (especially via mail after you returned home) for driving in a restricted zone" scenario as possible. If you don't see the usefulness of this, and don't have a comparable experience to tell us about, then I won't mind if you move on to the next thread. If you don't see the usefulness of this, but do have a comparable experience to tell us about, then please tell us your experience anyway, and see if something useful comes about. People say these zones exist in many European countries, but that makes me wonder why I haven't seen postings about the fine process except for Italy. If I've missed them, I would be grateful if someone would provide a link or two. In the meantime, it appears to me that the other countries must have a different, better approach, and I'd like to know what it is.

Christina

There are a lot of restricted traffic zones where I live in the US, a suburb of Wash DC, at least during certain times of day. Only residents with stickers are allowed to park on streets or even to turn onto them from the main street. It's to cut down on all the traffic and wear/tear/noise.

Christina

oh, for another example, I've seen them a lot in smaller towns, particular historic ones, in France. There are signs "sauf riverains" which means no one can drive in those areas but local residents (tend to be historic centers of towns, just like in Italy). I have no idea what the ticket process is as I obey the law and have never gotten one.

Ackislander

Okay. Boston and Cambridge also have resident parking zones. You can drive there, but you can't park unless you have a neighborhood sticker (in Boston). It cost me $50 on Beacon Hill many years ago, and it probably costs more now.

Boston also has very poorly marked "artery" parking. You can park all day at a meter until some magic hour when rush hour begins and then again after rush hour, but for that 3 hours or so, there are significant fines for not moving your car, even though the signs are posted about twelve feet off the ground. That was also an expensive lesson.

Brookline has a two hour limit and no overnight parking. All those empty streets look good when you are on your way to Fenway Park, but they don't look so good when you get the ticket. You cannot renew your registration or drivers license if you have unpaid tickets, so they don't need to keep billing you.

New York City (well, at least Manhattan) has daily alternate side of the street parking, well known to residents but expensive for visitors.

I got a speeding ticket in a mid-Western state for going very fast. The state policeman told me that if I paid the ticket on time, they would not report me to my then home state so I would get no points. Whether that was true or not, I did pay quickly and my record at home remained unencumbered.

Finally, and off the topic but not irrelevant to the subject of tourists and tickets, South Carolina once had a policy of "pay or stay": if you could not pay your traffic fine at the time the ticket was issued, you had to go to the nearest court house and wait until the money could be wired. It was a good way to fleece tourists bound for Florida. AAA did a lot to get rid of these kinds of things.

Michael

Woody Allen alludes to the alternate parking in NYC in his monologue "I shot a moose once". But then he is less a New Yorker than a Manhattanite.

Cowboy1968

In Germany, you (can) get a ticket for driving in restricted streets or zones. But there are no cameras as in the ZTL.

The German "Anlieger frei" equivalent of the French "sauf riverains" sign includes not only residents, but also any person who wants to visit someone or has some business to do. So if your hotel is in such a street you may drive there.
It would not be allowed to just drive through such a street or just drive there to park and walk to somewhere else.
The fine is not that big, though,.. some €20.

Driving in pedestrian zones is a bit more costly.. around €30.
There can be exemptions, like being allowed to drive to and from your hotel on your date of arrival and departure but not in between. But the exemptions are not uniform, so you have to understand the signage if your hotel is located in a pedestrian zone.

Pvoyageuse

"I have no idea what the ticket process is"
A fine (up to €90) and possibly 4 points (out of 12) off your driving license.

Michael

<i>The German "Anlieger frei" equivalent of the French "sauf riverains" sign includes not only residents, but also any person who wants to visit someone or has some business to do.</i>

How is it determined that you are visiting someone rather than just parking to walk somewhere else? Is it an ex post facto determination after the ticket is issued? I remember my cousin being worried about parking my car in front of his apartment house in Freiburg because of such restrictions.

Cowboy1968

Michael..

The typical situation would be that the police checks cars as they drive in such a "Anlieger frei" street or zone. You don't get a ticket while you are away from a parked car as the cops cannot know whether you are a resident, visiting someone, or do not qualify.

Usually the cops don't care about these areas, unless, for example, such a street gets regularly misused as a shortcut by drivers not living or not doing business there.

So your cousin was always doing it right.

A rather new nuisance are resident parking permits which are governed by whatever variations you can think of.
On my street you have sections where you
- may park with a resident permit for free at any time or park as a non-resident and pay the meter,
- may only park when you pay the meter during certain hours and park for free with a permit outside those hours,
- may only park with a resident permit during certain hours, and anyone can park for free during the night, and so on.

Even locals need a five minute meditation time standing in front of the signs to understand what they must or must not do. Total nonsense.

DickPatterson

Thanks for all the responses so far. I know that many cities have parking and driving restrictions and that fines can be stiff, but I'm really just interested in one particular type of offense because I want to compare apples to apples. The "sauf riverains" and "Anlieger frei" areas seem to be prime candidates for comparison. But it's the enforcement policies that I want to know about. Christina always obeys the law, so she cannot tell us about enforcement policies. This may surprise some, but I do my darnedest to obey the law, too. But sometimes people other than Christina can unknowingly break the law (if, for example, a traffic sign is missing or hidden and one does not know every rule governing every square inch of every roadway on earth). I also know that I have been forced to do things I didn't want to do and to go places I didn't want to go in order to avoid a collision. I could explain something like that to a live policeman, who might actually decide that giving me a ticket would not constitute "justice." The procedures and fines that Cowboy1968 speaks of for Germany seem reasonable compared to the Italian modus operandi. But I would like to hear still more from those of us who are not perfect and have ended up on the wrong side of this particular type of law in a European country other than Italy.