Protestant Has a Few Questions About Cathedrals
Mar 24th, 2004, 03:08 PM
#21
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I like this web site:
www.catholic-forum.com/saints/indexsnt.htm
Click on the upper right link "list by topic" and you can find out interesting stuff. Like the patron saint of computer technicians, computer users, computers and the Internet is Saint Isidore of Seville. Now considering he died in 636 I'm pretty sure he had no concept of an "Internet." He may have never seen an abacus, the closest thing to a "computer" long before there were computers.
Sometimes you can tell a saint by what they are holding or have with them. For example Saint Peter is usually portrayed holding the keys to heaven. St Roch is seen with a dog by his side with a half-eaten loaf of bread in the dog's mouth. This refers to the time he was a hermit and a dog would miraculously bring him a half loaf of bread every day to sustain him. St Anthony has a bell and a pig. That's why the smallest bell in a carillon is call a "tantony" as is the smallest (runt) in a litter of pigs.
Using the site above, you can find several saints just for you. Ones born on your birthday, ones who patronize your career choice and ones that support any afflictions you have. Or one like St Thomas Aquinas the patron saint of learning.
www.catholic-forum.com/saints/indexsnt.htm
Click on the upper right link "list by topic" and you can find out interesting stuff. Like the patron saint of computer technicians, computer users, computers and the Internet is Saint Isidore of Seville. Now considering he died in 636 I'm pretty sure he had no concept of an "Internet." He may have never seen an abacus, the closest thing to a "computer" long before there were computers.
Sometimes you can tell a saint by what they are holding or have with them. For example Saint Peter is usually portrayed holding the keys to heaven. St Roch is seen with a dog by his side with a half-eaten loaf of bread in the dog's mouth. This refers to the time he was a hermit and a dog would miraculously bring him a half loaf of bread every day to sustain him. St Anthony has a bell and a pig. That's why the smallest bell in a carillon is call a "tantony" as is the smallest (runt) in a litter of pigs.
Using the site above, you can find several saints just for you. Ones born on your birthday, ones who patronize your career choice and ones that support any afflictions you have. Or one like St Thomas Aquinas the patron saint of learning.
Mar 24th, 2004, 03:17 PM
#22
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On the topic of tourists' behaviour in churches I wanted to mention the time I visited the RC Cathedral in Barcelona in 1999.
There were signs everywhere in multiple languages that mass was in progress, please respect the service, etc. No big deal, though non-Catholic, I've sat through many a mass. My friends and I entered the church a few minutes after the start of the service. Yet the nuns inside the church were busily selling postcards, crosses and medallions to tourists as the mass went on. Talk about encouraging poor behaviour and a double standard.
There were signs everywhere in multiple languages that mass was in progress, please respect the service, etc. No big deal, though non-Catholic, I've sat through many a mass. My friends and I entered the church a few minutes after the start of the service. Yet the nuns inside the church were busily selling postcards, crosses and medallions to tourists as the mass went on. Talk about encouraging poor behaviour and a double standard.
Mar 24th, 2004, 03:53 PM
#23
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Actually, FlannerUK, here in the States, "protestant" is used to refer to any Christian religion that is neither Catholic nor Eastern Orthodox. It is a generalization, the way we call all facial tissue, "kleenex." I know people who call Mormons, "protestant," which they are not.
The reason I took umbrage at nytraveller is that any Londoner will tell you how many tourists make the mistake of thinking Westminster Abbey and Westminster Cathedral are one and the same. My mother was repeated stopped on the street by tourists when she worked near Westminster Cathedral and asked, "Is this the way to Westminster Cathedral?" Knowing better, she would always find out if they didn't mean Westminster Abbey. 9 times out of 10, it was Westminster Abbey they were actually looking for.
The reason I took umbrage at nytraveller is that any Londoner will tell you how many tourists make the mistake of thinking Westminster Abbey and Westminster Cathedral are one and the same. My mother was repeated stopped on the street by tourists when she worked near Westminster Cathedral and asked, "Is this the way to Westminster Cathedral?" Knowing better, she would always find out if they didn't mean Westminster Abbey. 9 times out of 10, it was Westminster Abbey they were actually looking for.
Mar 24th, 2004, 05:35 PM
#24
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This is one of the most educational threads ever to appear here. I must admit, that as a not-very-religious Protestant, questions I've always had but been too embarrassed to asked have been answered here, as well as a number of questions I never even knew I had. Thanks for asking for the rest of us, missypie.
Mar 24th, 2004, 05:58 PM
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In Re Protestant Cathedrals,
"On January 6, 1893, Congress granted a charter to the Protestant Episcopal Cathedral Foundation of the District of Columbia, allowing it to establish a cathedral and institutions of higher learning. Signed by President Benjamin Harrison, this charter was the birth certificate of Washington National Cathedral".
See http://www.cathedral.org/cathedral/d.../history.shtml
"On January 6, 1893, Congress granted a charter to the Protestant Episcopal Cathedral Foundation of the District of Columbia, allowing it to establish a cathedral and institutions of higher learning. Signed by President Benjamin Harrison, this charter was the birth certificate of Washington National Cathedral".
See http://www.cathedral.org/cathedral/d.../history.shtml
Mar 24th, 2004, 06:01 PM
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At the risk of offending any Poles, there is a small Polish Chapel at the cathedral at the Catholic University of America in DC which was contributed to by the many Polish Catholics who patronized the church and university. It was, as some others have explained, a particular place for Polish Catholics to go and pray. It contains a mosaic of virgins marching in procession, holding candles. Although it is generally beautifully done, the designers of the mosaic somehow created the mosaic so that instead of the hands of the virgins appearing to hold the candles, the candles are on the "outside" of the virgins' hands. For students at the university and some visitors who are made privy to this anomaly, this is considered the ultimate "Polish joke." Again, apologies if anyone is offended - it's just a bit of trivia related to cathedrals, and no one at Catholic Unversity has anything against Poles - quite the contrary. (I can already hear the PC police )
)
Mar 24th, 2004, 09:20 PM
#27
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Theological point. One doesn't pray to the saints (or the Virgin) but seeks intercession with God, by saints and the Holy Mother.
I converted and was properly taught that. Sometimes it's a benefit not to be a cradle Catholic.
I converted and was properly taught that. Sometimes it's a benefit not to be a cradle Catholic.
Mar 24th, 2004, 09:38 PM
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Thanks, Sheila. I tried to explain that to my mother last October. She felt it was sinful to pray to the Virgin Mary. I explained people weren't praying "to" the Virgin Mary but were asking the Virgin Mary to pray "for" them, i.e. just as you would ask a friend to pray for you. She seemed to understand but I know it will come up again.
It's a very confusing issue and shouldn't be. My very Protestant mother is staying in an assisted living facility that is mostly Catholic and she feels a bit out of the loop. She's learning! It's kind of nice when a whole new world can open up to you in your late 80s. My husband & I just got back from Rome where we surprisingly got to see the Pope and see four new saints beatified so she has something to share with all her new friends.
It's a very confusing issue and shouldn't be. My very Protestant mother is staying in an assisted living facility that is mostly Catholic and she feels a bit out of the loop. She's learning! It's kind of nice when a whole new world can open up to you in your late 80s. My husband & I just got back from Rome where we surprisingly got to see the Pope and see four new saints beatified so she has something to share with all her new friends.
Mar 25th, 2004, 01:27 AM
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This is an interesting thread. Growing up in the states "Protestant" was a combination of religions but in the UK/Ireland it means Church of England (episcipalian SP?). My Scottish friend is Baptist and see herself somewhere between the two.
The 2 cathedrals in Dublin which are currently Protestant. From what I remember learning they were originially Catholic and "reclaimed" by the English and made Protestant.
As for the saints. I find especially in the U.S. different saints statues vary from church to church. St. Anthony and St. Veronica are popular in Italian communities, At. Anthony and St. Theresa the Rose (Both have done a tour of Ireland in the past few years with the relics of these saints)are very popular in Ireland. The statue of St. Anthony in the church off Grafton street in Dublin has a money box and candles. It states that the money is going towards sick children etc. (He is good to pray for when you lose something, sick children and something else I forget) he is a good all rounder saint so he is popular! These small chapels to the side give people an opportunity to sit a pray to (or ask the saint to pray for)...people, problems or just say a few prayers and reflect.
I do think its a bit disrespectful walking and gawping around when a mass is on. Growing up most of my friends were not Catholic and I have been to Protestant, Hindu and Jewish services and give the same respect to all religious services as it is meaningful to those who worship there.
The 2 cathedrals in Dublin which are currently Protestant. From what I remember learning they were originially Catholic and "reclaimed" by the English and made Protestant.
As for the saints. I find especially in the U.S. different saints statues vary from church to church. St. Anthony and St. Veronica are popular in Italian communities, At. Anthony and St. Theresa the Rose (Both have done a tour of Ireland in the past few years with the relics of these saints)are very popular in Ireland. The statue of St. Anthony in the church off Grafton street in Dublin has a money box and candles. It states that the money is going towards sick children etc. (He is good to pray for when you lose something, sick children and something else I forget) he is a good all rounder saint so he is popular! These small chapels to the side give people an opportunity to sit a pray to (or ask the saint to pray for)...people, problems or just say a few prayers and reflect.
I do think its a bit disrespectful walking and gawping around when a mass is on. Growing up most of my friends were not Catholic and I have been to Protestant, Hindu and Jewish services and give the same respect to all religious services as it is meaningful to those who worship there.
Mar 25th, 2004, 01:30 AM
#30
What great information! There are extremely knowledgeable people here, and this conversation has straightened out many ideas that were unclear to me before. I often feel a large gap in my education concerning religions other than my own, and both travel and literature require more knowledge than I have acquired so far.
Mar 25th, 2004, 03:42 AM
#31
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indytravel - thank you so much for that link. I wish I had known about it ages ago! On our last trip to Italy, spouse and I were wishing we had done more theological research, because while we are reasonably well acquainted with the Bible stories we saw depicted in religious art, our ignorance about the lives of the saints was a considerable handicap.
Mar 25th, 2004, 04:37 AM
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SiobhanP,
The Episcopal Church is the American branch of the Church of England, otherwise known as the worldwide Anglican communion. The only Episcopal churches outside the USA are small branch parish churches of the American Episcopal Church. Clear???
The Episcopal Church is the American branch of the Church of England, otherwise known as the worldwide Anglican communion. The only Episcopal churches outside the USA are small branch parish churches of the American Episcopal Church. Clear???
Mar 25th, 2004, 08:02 AM
#33
Siobhan, in the UK, protestant doesn't really mean the Church of England, which, as someone else pointed out, is not really protestant. In Scotland, the main religion is the Church of Scotland, which is Presbyterian and most certainly protestant.
Mar 25th, 2004, 08:02 AM
#34
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You're welcome Sue_xx_yy. I find that being able to recognize a few things in churches makes it more enjoyable for me. I think it's why I like European travel so much. Being a very, very lapsed Baptist I still have a sense of religious familiarity in Europe. When I travel to Asia, it's not there for me.
By the way, I've always thought it interesting that you can rearrange the letters in "Episcopal" and spell "Pepsi Cola".
By the way, I've always thought it interesting that you can rearrange the letters in "Episcopal" and spell "Pepsi Cola".
Mar 25th, 2004, 08:08 AM
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In Italy local people ,often early in the morning, bring bouquets of flowers and lay them on the altar on their way to work.
When we visited many smaller churches in Venice or other towns in Italy, no matter how early we went to church, there were always many small fresh bouquets there.
When we have stayed in a convent in Rome that is built around a small church, we noticed that many people gave small bouquets, especially on holy days, and the sisters would arrange them at the different altars. The sisters were always very pleased to receive these flowers.
When we visited many smaller churches in Venice or other towns in Italy, no matter how early we went to church, there were always many small fresh bouquets there.
When we have stayed in a convent in Rome that is built around a small church, we noticed that many people gave small bouquets, especially on holy days, and the sisters would arrange them at the different altars. The sisters were always very pleased to receive these flowers.
Mar 25th, 2004, 08:15 AM
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indytravel - Presbyterians = Britney Spears. My pastor pointed this out one day. Love that guy.
As an add-on, I just got back from Prague (trip report soon...) and noticed many, many monstrances in the cathedrals but I cannot find a satisfactory definition of their function on the web. Often they say they are used for the presentation of the host, in order to expose them for adoration. So the mirror is there ostensibly to allow for greater view when it's held up by whomever, with the Host balanced on the bottom or something? Genuinely curious.
As Patrick remarked, great thread!
As an add-on, I just got back from Prague (trip report soon...) and noticed many, many monstrances in the cathedrals but I cannot find a satisfactory definition of their function on the web. Often they say they are used for the presentation of the host, in order to expose them for adoration. So the mirror is there ostensibly to allow for greater view when it's held up by whomever, with the Host balanced on the bottom or something? Genuinely curious.
As Patrick remarked, great thread!
Mar 25th, 2004, 09:16 AM
#37
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A little correction re StCirq's comment above. The church she describes is not the Catholic cathedral for Washington DC. The huge church near Catholic U, a byzantine-inspired structure on Michigan Ave NE, is the Shrine of the Immaculate Conception. It is a basilica, the name give to an important church that is not the seat of a bishop. The word basilica comes from the Roman name for a building used for public administration.
The Catholic cathedral in Washington is St. Matthew's on Rhode Island Ave NW.
(Hope you find this post informative, not critical or too teachy.)
The Catholic cathedral in Washington is St. Matthew's on Rhode Island Ave NW.
(Hope you find this post informative, not critical or too teachy.)
Mar 25th, 2004, 09:49 AM
#38
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Ahaugeto, I was raised Catholic and used to do some work in the church (cleaning those chapels), actually, so will address you question about the monstrances you saw in Prague, as much as I can remember.
They are just meant to display the host for worship. Since you've since them, you know what they look like -- in rich parishes, royal chapels, etc, they could be really expensive and ornate and have a lot of silver and gold. Many are in museums or royal treasuries for that reason, they are excellent examples of decorative arts. Here is one from an Italian Museum, to make sure we are talking about the same thing:
http://www.officine.it/montecassino/...htm/66vaso.htm
There are certain periods when this is used to display the host for worship in the church, it's put on the altar. Sometimes it's during special devotional periods, although some churches have it on display most of the time in the church, for people who want to come in and pray. It's also used for display during special events or even processionals outside the church. They have some very elaborate ones in Spain.
I'm not sure about your question on the mirror, maybe there was some mirror on one you saw in Prague, but the round center is generally clear glass on both sides (maybe you thought it was a mirror). The host is put upright inside that and the glass makes it visible on both sides. Often, the host is held upright inside that round glass center in a slight "tray" or slot at the bottom, which may be crescent moon-shaped.
They are just meant to display the host for worship. Since you've since them, you know what they look like -- in rich parishes, royal chapels, etc, they could be really expensive and ornate and have a lot of silver and gold. Many are in museums or royal treasuries for that reason, they are excellent examples of decorative arts. Here is one from an Italian Museum, to make sure we are talking about the same thing:
http://www.officine.it/montecassino/...htm/66vaso.htm
There are certain periods when this is used to display the host for worship in the church, it's put on the altar. Sometimes it's during special devotional periods, although some churches have it on display most of the time in the church, for people who want to come in and pray. It's also used for display during special events or even processionals outside the church. They have some very elaborate ones in Spain.
I'm not sure about your question on the mirror, maybe there was some mirror on one you saw in Prague, but the round center is generally clear glass on both sides (maybe you thought it was a mirror). The host is put upright inside that and the glass makes it visible on both sides. Often, the host is held upright inside that round glass center in a slight "tray" or slot at the bottom, which may be crescent moon-shaped.
Mar 25th, 2004, 10:18 AM
#39
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Thought you might be interested to know I looked up patron saints of travellers and there are 24!
* Alexius
* Anthony of Padua
* Balthasar
* Bona
* Botulph
* Brendan the Navigator
* Brigid of Ireland
* Caspar
* Christopher
* Francis da Paola
* Gertrude of Nivelles
* Gertrude the Great
* Infant Jesus of Prague
* Joseph
* Julian the Hospitaller
* Martha
* Mary, Blessed Virgin
* Mary Euphrasia Pelletier
* Melchior
* Nicholas of Myra
* Nino de Atocha
* Raphael the Archangel
* Sebastian of Aparicio
* Valentine
Travellers in the mountains have their own: Petronilla.
* Alexius
* Anthony of Padua
* Balthasar
* Bona
* Botulph
* Brendan the Navigator
* Brigid of Ireland
* Caspar
* Christopher
* Francis da Paola
* Gertrude of Nivelles
* Gertrude the Great
* Infant Jesus of Prague
* Joseph
* Julian the Hospitaller
* Martha
* Mary, Blessed Virgin
* Mary Euphrasia Pelletier
* Melchior
* Nicholas of Myra
* Nino de Atocha
* Raphael the Archangel
* Sebastian of Aparicio
* Valentine
Travellers in the mountains have their own: Petronilla.
Mar 25th, 2004, 10:25 AM
#40
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Ah! Thank you, Christina! I understand now how I thought they were mirrors - most of the ones I saw were on altars in front of cases/mirrors or were themselves in display cases backed by, yup, mirrors. Thank you for your thoughtful explanation.
