To all of you planning on Venice: <BR>We just came back from three weeks in Europe. England, Scotland, Italy and France. (Yes, it was too much, too fast!) We had a great time and I recomend Scotland to anyone even half interested, it was beautiful. <BR>Then we hit Venice. I travel a lot. I own a hotel in Mexico. I know what things cost. But never, have I seen anything close to Venice for a rip off. Yes, it is beautiful. Yes, it is unique. But it is so crowded you cannot walk comfortably and everywhere you turn, someone is charging you for something. Four pesto pastas and four cokes = $175 dlls and the pasta was overcooked. Our hotel was $400 dlls a night. No view. Water is $5 dlls a bottle. If you order a glass of wine, be prepared for it to be watered down. Want to go on a gondola ride at night? $100 dlls. Want to listen to the music at San Marcos square? Be prepared to pay for it. They charge the cappuchino and a "music fee". By the way, it's the only thing I really enjoyed. We stayed only two nights (cut it short) and both nights we sat at a table listening to great music, nursing coffee and grand marnier. <BR>I'm not saying don't go. But I wish I had read somewhere on this forum about the prices. I would have gone with the knowledge that I was going to spend three times as much as I thought. I would have been prepared. I would not have left with such a distaste for the place. <BR>There are many beautiful places in the world. To me, Venice is no longer one of them. <BR>Margot

Sorry you did not enjoy Venice. What a shame, we absolutely LOVED it! However we went in March and it was not very crowded at all. Yes it was expensive (not our hotel BTW), but we thought it was well worth it. I think it depends a great deal on when you make your trip.

I guess how much Venice costs you depends on where you eat and where you stay. We stayed at a lovely, inexpensive pension in the Campo San Geremia called the Casa Gerotto, which cost 110,000 Lit per night for an airy room overlooking the Campo. Luxurious? Absolutely not. A bargain? Oh yes. And there were a number of other options that we could have taken a little further up the price scale, but nowhere near the $400 per night range. <BR> <BR>I used Frommer's Pocket Venice and Sandra Gustafson's Cheap Eats in Italy to pick our restaurants, and we never paid anything remotely like $40+ per person for a meal. We did get ripped off once, at a bad touristy place in the Lista di Spagna, but we were in a rush to eat before making our night train and probably should have known better. (Our first clue should have been the fact that everyone in the place was speaking English. Never a good sign of either quality food or bargain prices in a restaurant in Venice.) <BR> <BR>None of which is to say that prices aren't elevated in Venice. Oh yeah, they are. It just takes a little more work to find the bargains, but they're there. <BR> <BR>August, I've heard, is probably the worst time of year to visit Venice (either that or July).

I've been to Venice twice and haven't had the problems with prices. We knew in advance the legendary high prices and tried to be educated about ways to save money and still feel as though we were indulging. For example, instead of water taxis we took vaporetto for $5.00 2-day passes, bargained on the gondola ride at an off-peak time ($30.00/2 people/30 minutes) and ate at "local" restaurants with delicious food. Our hotel was centrally located and two stars for $40.00/2 people. We paid cash to save about 15% off the tab. To listen to the music in St. Mark's Square, we bought wine and sat on the steps for about $5.00 for the bottle. We didn't deprive ourselves at all and had a fabulous time both visits. But, we also went once in March (75 degrees and sunny, no crowds) and once in the beginning of May.

I spent a week in Venice last New Years and didn't have any of those experiences - Venice isn't bargain travel by any means, but our hotel was $150/night for 2 (a very nice hotel), we ate for about $25 per person most dinners, never paid $5 for water, had wonderful coffee, wine, pastries, fruit, bread, bought food for picnics many times and had wonderful help and service from people in bakeries, delis etc. Margot's experience was very unfortunate, but certainly not representative of what my trip was like. We had so much fun, the next trip is already scheduled!

We've been to Venice three times and will go again in four weeks. We always stay at the Kette - about $215 per night - not a discount hotel, but not $400 either. The Kette is a lovely hotel with charming rooms and huge marble bathrooms. Breakfast is included and it is substantial, so you can have a light lunch or snack if you want to and skip a big sit-down lunch. Our dinners (for two) have mostly been in the $60 to $80 range, but have included an appetizer (sometimes shared), a bottle of wine, and a dessert. Our biggest splurge has been about $130 for dinners at Da Fiore - well worth it. We don't eat near San Marco or other heavily touristed areas, but try to wander into the neighborhoods. We buy our water at small grocery stores for about $1.50. Items to take home (masks, handmade paper, glass, etc) can be extremely pricey around San Marco, but again, off the beaten path there are many bargains to be found. <BR> <BR>I'm so sorry Margot had a bad experience. Venice is one of my favorite places - I guess I just want everyone to love it as much as I do

Margot, I'd be specially interested in knowing where you managed to pay that much for pasta & cokes ... <BR> <BR>Specially in summer, there are indeed a large number of merchants in Venice that permit themselves just about everything to make some "undeserved" money on the back of the "innocent" tourist. In part, tourists are at fault. There are just too many that simply "swallow" just about any rip off ... as if the Serenissima, ultimate dream of many, would justify it as a common practice. <BR> <BR>If every visitor would practice the competition game fully, the picture would undoubtely be different. <BR> <BR>With hotels the game is normally fair. Not much one can do about; is a pure nmatter of offer and demand. Prices are very high, but one should know in advance exactly how much one will be paying. <BR> <BR>Restaurants are obligated to show their menus with prices and there shouldn't be any hidden "extras". Compare the menus and don't hesitate to discuss prices in stores. Just back off if you smell a rip-off. If a restaurant serves you an order that isn't ok, just turn it down at the spot. Ask the waiter to get one right or modify your order. <BR> <BR>The Venice department of Tourism created a free phone service for all those who think they have been taken a ride. One has to identify oneselve and file the complaint. Operators speak several languages and there's a guarantee that an immediate intervention will take place. If you feel being ripped off, ask the merchant/waiter/etc for a telephone and the Tourist Complaint number (800 355920) which he's obligated to inform (then tell me waht the net effect was <BR> <BR>Paulo <BR> <BR> <BR>Paulo <BR>

I don't mean to sound rude, but anyone who says they "travel a lot" and "own a hotel" has only themselves to blame for having the experiences that the original poster described!

If I had the experience Margot described, I would be very turned off on Venice too. So, Margot, thanks for your good faith in trying to forewarned future Venice first timers. <BR> <BR>Some posters are trying to emphasize that there isn't the need to pay none of what Margot did to have a decent experience with food, lodging and entertainment in Venice. Yet, only Gina & Paulo truly contributed some useful piece of advise as to WHERE/WHO/HOW. High prices in Venice are a reality and in August, some may be unavoidable. I was billed $12.00 for scrambled eggs in Venice in a local place (early May). It is possible that rip-off may be rampant in Venice. <BR> <BR>Margot, thanks for the warning.

Cokes and scrambled eggs will be expensive in most European countries, and certainly throughout Italy - though probably even more so in Venice, which is notoriously expensive. One can reduce the cost of things by eating/drinking as the locals do, and seeking out places to shop/eat/stay that are not right in the center of the tourist area. Besides, why would you go all the way to Italy and then insist upon American food? <BR> <BR>Think about it - in the States, are things not far more expensive in Fisherman's Wharf, Times Square, the Latin Quarter, etc. than in other parts of San Francisco/New York/New Orleans? Tourists who never venture beyond these areas get "ripped off" too. Another reason it's important to do your homework before you embark on your next trip.

Before we give Venice too bad of a reputation, let's remember that the thing that makes it beautiful is also the thing that makes it expensive: canals. When you watch everything from vegetables to sofas to toilet paper being delivered by narrow boats in narrow canals, you can appreciate the premium that you must pay for ordinary items. A truck cannot pull up to the corner grocery to off-load a shipment of bottled water. They must fight tides and the wakes of other passing boats. At times, they must cease operation and move to let another boat pass, then pull back up and resume. <BR> <BR>That said, I still think the prices paid by Margot were very high. Those prices do exist in Venice, but so do the reasonable prices mentioned by other posters. <BR> <BR>Ask and compare before you buy. Read the menu before you go in. No one has to pay $43 a head for coke and pasta. A great meal can be had for far less.

To Localstyle---- why should scrambled eggs be $12.00?....because they are "American food"? Hilarious, this one I never heard!! An imported U.S. product, I can see, EGGS???, hellooooo..... Also, where in the message you get the idea, this was "insist upon"? Too funny...

I would have phrased it differently, but I agree with the points Localstyle raised. Margot, I'm sorry you didn't enjoy Venice, but I'm not sure what you expected. Music charge at Florian's or Quadri in San Marco is well-known. Yes, it makes having a cocktail or cup of tea expensive, but "you gets what you pays for" and for me the hour I spent there sipping my tea was one I will never forget. I would not have expected that prime location to be cheap. <BR>Venice being horribly crowded in the summer is something I read and hear about all the time. Cokes being ridiculously expensive is something I've seen in every major European city; ditto other American foods like scrambled eggs for breakfast. In that case the cafe or hotel owners, whose business is tourism, are trying to maximize what the traffic will bear, which is a two-way transaction with no guns to anyone's head. <BR>Expensive food, restaurants, drinks and hotels have complex factors: some of it is ripping off, some of it is seasonal, some of it is tied to complex issues of the local economy, and some of it is just unfortunate choices <BR>and/or bad luck. <BR>How to avoid prices that are too high in any location? Again, that can only be done to a certain extent, within the local economies. Rip-offs aside, the average hotel room, Coke, or plate of eggs will always be much more expensive in London, New York or Venice then it will be in Omaha or Scarborough. Bargains in the former will be fewer and farther between than they will be in the latter. I guess the trick is to do the homework,not just in guidebooks that often tend to all always mention the same hotels and restaurants, but in getting recommendations from the locals, from your hotel porter or maid, from repeat visitors, and by walking into neighborhoods away from the tourist areas. I know that works in New York where I am a local, as well as in other places. Many of the places to eat that are mentioned in New York City guidebooks are places that locals don't eat in very often, if at all; either because of the high prices, or the low quality. In New York, depending on where I go, I can have eggs for $2.95 or $15. <BR>Paulo once shared a list of relatively inexpensive Venetian restaurants that he frequented when he was a hungry student. <BR>perhaps it can be Searched for here. <BR>I also incorporated it into my Venice notes (with all due credit); if someone wants it, they can email me. <BR>Margot, I hope some day, off season, you give Venice another try. Or that you find some other wonderful place that you can recommend we discover.

Okay, Maira, you want us to provide more helpful info. Here goes: <BR>1. I didn't pay anywhere near $400 a night for a hotel. I shopped around and paid far, far less. <BR>2. I didn't pay $175 for 4 pesto pastas and 4 cokes simply by looking at the menus before going into the restaurant. <BR>3. We ate lunches in snack bars and gaseterias with the locals and never spent more than $5-6 apiece for lunch. <BR>$. $100 for a gondola ride? I would just say no. We fell in love with Venice even without the gondola ride. (But I know we'll be going back, so maybe I'll do that the next time.) Sure, Venice was a little more expensive than Rome or Florence. Still, I didn't feel ripped off at all in Venice. <BR>I repeat my earlier comment, anyone who says that she "travels a lot" and "owns a hotel" has only herself to blame. <BR> <BR>

Is this a troll of some sort? Seriously, I read through Margot's post a couple of times because it seemed off. I realized 1) why was she surprised at the cost of the hotel? When she booked the hotel, didn't she ask the price? Do ANY research at all in hotel prices?? (aren't there four grillion guidebooks on Venice, let alone websites?) Did she just show up in Venice at the height of tourist season, expecting to find any hotel room she wanted? Again, didn't she read ANY guidebooks or check any websites to know how busy Venice is?? 2) Venice was crowded; wow, there's an effin' news flash. You been livin' in a mushroom cave?? Mexico isn't some podunk country without communication. <BR>3) What nimrod pays $43 for a plate of pasta and a Coke? Didn't she look at the menu? Again, didn't she do ANY research to find out what food costs in Venice? Wouldn't she have know ahead of time that $43 for pasta was out of whack?? <BR>4) Every guidebook I've seen says, in essence, "be prepared to pay through the nose for a gondola ride". So it came as a big surprise? Didn't she ask the price of the gondolier? Duh. <BR>5) So she paid a "music fee"? What, she thinks the musicians work for free? Gee, doll, just say 'no' and find an alternative. Heather did. <BR> <BR>All in all, either Margot is the dumbest person I've ever seen (hey, I've got some great beachfront property in Arizona for sale. Interested?) or this is one of the better trolls.

<BR>Thank you Elvira for finally calling this as it truly is - a TROLL! <BR> <BR>Someone savvy enough to own a hotel and travel frequently would surely know the ropes enough to make a few inquiries prior to arrival. <BR> <BR>A clever troll, though. Just real enough to raise a question mark. <BR> <BR>I say these kids have done well over the summer. We'll miss them come September, but have to admit these learned from us. These are getting very realistic.

I think it is possible to be "ripped off" in Venice. On the other hand, one can prepare oneself to cope with an expensive city like Venice by deciding on what your money is best spent. <BR> <BR>Our June trip (the high season to be sure) was our first to Europe but we sought the advice of friends many times before our departure, and looked for clues when we arrived. <BR> <BR>We booked at the Hotel Bisanzio which is only about 200 meters and a couple of bridges from the Piazza San Marco. While the cost was $200 a night, that's about what you'd payment for a good (but not luxurious) hotel in a good mid-town location in New York, and we budgeted that amount for what we knew would be the most expensive lodging on our holiday. The hotel was quite modern on the interior (we couldn't get into the recommended Hotel Flora) and had the not really dubious benefit of being a "Best Western" or "Westin" (I can't remember). Any connection with the American chain was not obvious, except that we experienced the convenience of being able to book on an 800 number in the US. The hotel was recommended in Gustafson's _Cheap Sleeps in Italy_ (a dandy reference, well worth its $15 price). <BR> <BR>We practiced the eating part by going first to Firenze and then to Verona. In both these places, even at fairly touristy restaurants, we were able to find entree size salads and pizzas for about $12 for each of us plus about $4 to $5 for a generous size beer (oddly, most of the beers were German). <BR> <BR>We were able to easily find about the same prices for the same food in Venice and only broke that eating pattern once to experience the spaghetti with cuttlefish sauce. The only difference we noticed was that the food was perhaps marginally less good and marginally less well served at those same prices (the latter probably due to the crush of tourists--no getting around that phenomenon). <BR> <BR>We never paid more than $1.50 for a half liter of "frizzante" mineral water, even in Piazza San Marcos, and usually more like $1 or $1.25. <BR> <BR>Once you've paid the airfare, the marginal difference in cost between Venice and other-city prices is noticeable but not dramatic. <BR> <BR>We had a great time in Venice and especially enjoyed the vaporettos. The #1 boat gives you a splended tour for about $3 because it makes many stops on a lengthy route around the canals. <BR> <BR>Venice was our favorite Italian town and we'd even fight with the tourists to go again. It's that pesky airfare that gets you down.

Maybe you think Venice was expensive compared to prices in Mexico, but I just came back from 2 weeks in Italy and 3 days in Venice and thought it was an incredible value. I did not pay $5 for bottled water, and we drank a lot of it while we were there. If you insist on sitting in San Marco to listen to the music, then you must pay the price. You could just as easily stand there and take in the beauty of the moment for nothing. If you say you travel a lot, how could you have been so surprised by what you paid regardless of how much it was? As for the crowds, it's summer; it's vacation time!!!! Maybe you don't travel as much as you think you do!

I would have to agree with Elvira. As a matter of fact, I was going to suggest the troll possibility myself today when I saw her post. <BR> <BR>First of all, we haven't heard back from the lovely Margot Sims de Gonzalez since "her" original troll. What kind of name is that, anyway? <BR> <BR>Secondly, check out her e-mail address. Has anyone tried to send her a message? I would wager it will come back as undeliverable. That doesn't even look like a real e-mail address. <BR> <BR>And finally, besides all of the obvious observations that Elvira made, how the hell could anyone go to Venice and have such a completely negative experience?? <BR> <BR>Bottom line, some of us were taken in, hook, line and sinker. It was nice to see even under the extreme heat of her post, all the people flying to the defense of La Serenissima. And hey, if it was real and she never goes back... One less ugly tourist to crowd "our" little city! <BR>Ciao, <BR>luigi

What does a TROLL mean?