I am planning a trip to Europe with my best bud. I need help with the first two decisions. Should we do various countries, like England, France & Italy, or do only one country (Italy)? AND do we travel on our own or do a tour group? Basics: both single and 50ish; trip length 7-10 days; interests-shopping and eating; moderate budget! Your advice will be much appreciated! THANKS

Most posters here would strongly recommend one country, myself included. Just assume you will return (and you will!) to others.

For a first trip I would recommend Italy as it is chock-full of beauty, history, culture, great food, atmosphere, shopping, etc.

I personally would not even consider a tour group. Public transportation is often very easy (as is driving much of the time). However, if you feel uncomfortable with transporation a group may be for you - it is a personal thing.

Staying in agriturismos or B&Bs can be wonderful experiences and save money over hotels. I strongly recommend Italian agriturismos.

I would do one country. There is a strong tendency to stuff everything in, but this will result in a very tiring, not as enjoyable trip. You will lose a lot of time traveling from place to place. You cannot even do everything you might want to in most countries in just seven to 10 days.

I would also not encourage you to go on a tour. I have not done one, but based on my conversations with those who have (and seeing the buses pull up in various towns), you will have just cursory looks at the most touristy towns.

You can search books and this board to decide where you want to go. Once you have done that, you can look up trip reports here on what other people have done in the countries you are most interested in visiting. You should post your itinerary here and seek comment. You will never need a tour guide with some of the experts here giving you advice.

And, Congratulations on going. You will have a great time and go back many times.

With 10 days, you can do two places easily. I don't think it has to be the same country.

Personally I would self-plan not join a tour, but that's a completely individual decision. No right or wrong answer.

If you flew into Venice, stayed 5 days, overnight train to Paris, stay 5 days, fly home from Paris would be a fun and fairly easy trip to arrange on your own.

Of Rome and Venice, maybe even Florence, would work to. Fly into your first city and out of your last to avoid backtracking at the end of your trip. Travel between places on the train.

No debate - one country only. My wife & I have been vacationing in Europe for over 30 years. Since we retired early in '99 so we could travel more, we have been spending 2 months in Europe every year.

I think the best itinerary for a first-timer who has very little time is the "classic" Italy plan of Venice, Tuscany countryside, and Rome. Seven days is not nearly enough time to do all three, and 10 is even stretching it.

If you truely have 10 full days, I would fly to Venice (much better to fly into Venice & out of Rome, than vice-versa) and stay:

- 3-4 nights in Venice (4 if you are prone to jet lag fatigue)

- Take the train to Siena or Chiusi, rent a car at the train station, and spend 3 days/3 nights exploring the small hill villages & fantasatic countryside of Tuscany. Stay in San Quirico or Pienza in the lovely Val d'Orcia

- Drive to Orvieto, dump the car, visit Orvieto, and take a train to Rome.

- stay 3-4 nights in Rome.

If you only have 7 days, I would just fly into Venice & spend 3 nights/3 days there, then 4 nights in Rome.

There are tons of books written about Rome, Venice, and Tuscany. There is little need to join a tour group for the entire trip. Hire a guide or join a small group to tour the Roman Ruins, and other ancient Roman sites.

I have a 20+ page itinerary for Italy that I've sent to hundreds of Fodors people. E-mail me at [email protected] if you want one (it's free).

Stu Dudley

First, I would try to take 10 days, since you will lose days traveling, and to recover from jet lag. Whether you stay in one country or do two really just depends on whether there are places you've always been dying to see. Sure, you can do Venice, Florence and Rome in 10 days, but you can also do London, York and Edinburgh, London and Paris, Rome and Paris, etc. It depends a lot on whether you want to be in two cities or travel around in between (for which Italy is ideal, because of all the great towns to stop in, especially if you drive). I personally recommend driving. If you're nervous about it, bring a GPS with Europe maps. It's just a lot more flexible than public transportation or a tour. I've always been an independent traveler, never been on a group tour, but I just can't imagine having to wake up when someone else says, have meals when someone else says, etc. It's just not me. So, I would recommend flying to Rome, stay 4 days (one of which is your jet lag recovery day), then rent a car and drive to Florence, stay a few days (stopping along the way), drive to Venice (stopping along the way), stay a few days, fly home.

OR, fly to Paris, stay 4-5 days, rent a car and stop in Chartres and spend a few days in the Loire Valley.

Either way, do a big city first and rent your car when you're leaving - you don't want to be driving in Rome or Paris.

HI can,

I take it that this is your first visit.

I suggest:

A: Fly into Venice (3 nights), train to Florence (3 nights), train to Rome (3 nights), fly home.

B: Fly into London (4 nights) train to Paris (5 nights), fly home.

C: Fly into Paris (4 nights), fly www.myair.com to Venice VCE (2 nights), train to Florence (3 nights) fly home from FLR or Pisa PSA - or go to Rome instead of Florence.

No need to shackle yourselves to a tour group.

Enjoy your visit.

In 7 to 10 das you can see part of one country or one city each in 2 countries. To do more than that you see nothing much but train stations (or buses if you take a tour).

Without knowing your interests it's hard to make specific recos.

But, generally , if you're willing to do the research you can get a vacation closer to what you want at lower cost traveling independently than using a tour (which, after all, has to make a profit off you). If, on the other hand you don;t want to make any decisions, do any research or have any specifics you want to see - a tour involves less work on your part. (But also a lot of 7 am starts and sitting on buses all day.)

highly recommend italy, as well, for a first trip. i like doing a combination of city/smaller towns...so you get a feel for both. my first trip to italy, i did venice (3 nights), train to florence (3 nights) and then ended the trip in tuscany (4 nights). it was perfect to go from the excitement and hurry of the cities to the beauty and peaceful countryside of tuscany.

like everyone else has said, don't try to pack too much in to one trip - you'll spend the majority of your time in route and checking in & out of hotels. really takes a few days in each place to experience it.

have fun!

There are pros and cons for each way of travelling but having done both, I would always choose to travel independently.

Doing the trip on your own will require a lot more work but I really think you would get a lot more out of it. If you do a tour, you don't need to find your own way or plan very much at all but travelling independently, you need a guidebook and a map to find your hotel and look at the things you came to see.

If you go independently, there are day bus tours, guided walking tours and hop-on-hop-off buses in cities if you want to join them.

You will meet like-minded people on a tour but will usually be restricted to do what the group is doing. I have been on tours where we've spent a couple of hours somewhere I would never choose to go, to then speed past in the bus somewhere I would have loved to stop. You will also have early mornings (sometimes the rule is luggage in the corridor to be collected by 7am). This means you have to be showered, dressed and pretty much ready by then. This doesn't suit everyone.

Opportunities for shopping will be fairly limited unless you have a free day in a city where you want to shop. We've found on tours that you can be limited to touristy restaurants with a pretty boring menu, when you'd really like to visit that family run trattoria down the street.

Try and take the maximum time for your trip you can, as travelling to and from Europe will eat into your holiday time. If you are jetlagged on arrival, you can also lose a day or two there just because you might feel lousy.

If you plan the whole trip as independent travellers, it can sometimes seem overwhelming but just take things one step at a time. Start with where you want to visit, then the time of year you will go and book flights. After that you can look at accommodation and how to get around. Trains are excellent in Europe and can be much easier than driving.

Good luck!
Kay

I just don't understand the one country only recommendation. While I don't like to rush around, it's just as easy to do Amsterdam & Paris, Paris & Venice, etc. as it is to to Venice & Rome.

I agree (and said the same thing)....you have to decide which places you really want to see. London and Paris is a classic, but Paris and Bruges, or Paris and Amsterdam, easy. Flying intraEurope is pretty simple, there are many low-cost airlines. Rail travel is also much more doable than in the US, you could even take a sleeper between cities if it sounds like fun (it does to me).

In 2004, we flew to Amsterdam, spent 3 nights (2-1/2 days), flew to Prague, spent 4 nights (3-1/2 days), trained to Berlin, spent 3 nights (2-1/2 days), and flew to Nice, spent 6 days and nights. That's a little longer than your trip, but the point is, you don't have to stay in one place if you want to see more than one place! If you do pick Paris as one of your "places", be sure to give it enough time, at least 4-5 days.

Either all Italy OR half UK and half somewhere else. Top candidates for the second half would be Netherlands, Germany, or France.

Amsterdam is easily reachable by train and ferry - see www.DutchFlyer.co.uk

The high-speed train that goes under the English Channel is the Eurostar.com, and you could ride it either to Paris or to Brussels and on to Cologne by Thalys.com

Some people don't take to foreign cultures where they perceive a possible language issue. It really isn't a problem - many first-timers do very well with a few tourist phrases - but if the former applies to you, I would suggest UK and Netherlands, because the English spoken in both countries can be understood by most North Americans. UK/France or UK/Germany would be second, and all Italy third. Even with a basic command of a language, fighting it continuously for a week or more could be very fatiguing.

Definitely try for 10 days (not just 7). The biggest expense is the plane ticket, so might as well make it last as long as possible.

hi canaid,

what time of year? what do you like to do? how adventurous are you?

regards, ann

With 7 days, I would do two locations (country not important). With 10 days, I would try to squeeze in 3.

Since this is your first trip, I would go with London and Paris, if a 7 day trip. With 10 days, I would do London, Paris, and another. The other depends upon your wants. Rome or Florence would be good choices for Italy. Amsterdam would be an option too.

Given your interests, I would offer that London is, aside from NYC and Tokyo, the best shopping city I have every been in. If you are willing to drop some money, it might also be the best dining city in Europe, as well - but it will cost you. Paris has eating and shopping, too. At the mid-range, the eating is probably better than London, but not the shopping.

I would definitely look into an open-jaw ticket (into one city, out of another). It may cost a bit more, but probably not enough more to offset the time advantage you will gain from not having to make it back to your arrival point.

Wow--so much info so fast. Thanks so much. I'm sure I will obtain enough info from you experts to plan a great trip. Keep it coming!