Pinching in Italy?
Oct 30th, 2006, 04:36 AM
#41
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>> these guys deserve nothing better than a knuckle sandwich on a slice of focaccia in response to their boorish, and totally unacceptable, behavior <<
I agree.
Unwanted pinching, touching, etc. is assault and should be dealt with as such. They'll only laugh at you if you shout at them...
I agree.
Unwanted pinching, touching, etc. is assault and should be dealt with as such. They'll only laugh at you if you shout at them...
Oct 30th, 2006, 05:02 AM
#42
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I agree princess, it is a form of assault.
I studied Tai Kwan Do for 4 years, and also have taken self defense training courses for women. And I have had a six month training course as a Rape Crisis Counselor which dealt extensively with harassment issues, and I then worked as a volunteer counselor for 2 years.
The ONLY time reacticve physical violence is a smart response to harassment is when it is necessary as a last resort, although it is important to be well prepared and alert in any situation. An example of a last resort is if one is being physically attacked. My experience in Italy has been that learning the language and loud verbal confrontation has been very effective in getting rid of men who are bothering or harassing me. It has worked for me. If I thought a "knuckle sandwich" were more effective, and if I were an equal match, and well prepared to deal with the likely consequences of raising things to a level of physical violence, I would have a different opinion. It sounds like really good "tough talk", but to me it sounds unrealistic.
But all of my training has led me to the opinion that making alot of noise is a good first choice, and escalating to physical confrontation is a LAST resort. As far as being laughed at, I couldn't care less, as long as I get rid of the immediate problem.
I studied Tai Kwan Do for 4 years, and also have taken self defense training courses for women. And I have had a six month training course as a Rape Crisis Counselor which dealt extensively with harassment issues, and I then worked as a volunteer counselor for 2 years.
The ONLY time reacticve physical violence is a smart response to harassment is when it is necessary as a last resort, although it is important to be well prepared and alert in any situation. An example of a last resort is if one is being physically attacked. My experience in Italy has been that learning the language and loud verbal confrontation has been very effective in getting rid of men who are bothering or harassing me. It has worked for me. If I thought a "knuckle sandwich" were more effective, and if I were an equal match, and well prepared to deal with the likely consequences of raising things to a level of physical violence, I would have a different opinion. It sounds like really good "tough talk", but to me it sounds unrealistic.
But all of my training has led me to the opinion that making alot of noise is a good first choice, and escalating to physical confrontation is a LAST resort. As far as being laughed at, I couldn't care less, as long as I get rid of the immediate problem.
Nov 1st, 2006, 01:48 AM
#43
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When I last posted on this thread, I was on my way to lunch with colleagues (mostly male, but one woman as well) and asked them about it. They all fell about laughing at the idea that groping women on the street would be considered normal or acceptable behavior nowadays.
Deborah did say that she's been groped in the metro a few times; this happens when it's crowded enough that someone thinks he can't be identified in the crowd (and sometimes he's right) and can get away with it. It's called palpeggiamento (groping) and is an arrestable offense - including when it happens, as it sometimes does, at the office (not ours).
Deborah's usual response on the metro is to step backwards onto the offender's foot with her sharp high heel, then turn around and say sweetly, "Did I step on your foot? I'm soooo sorry."
Bellastar, you're right - I did contradict myself. I was trying to express that, while I had lived in the neighborhood for years and been to the market many times, I had never been propositioned in any way there, not even in the earliest days. On the other hand, it was a travelling weekly market whose vendors see thousands of people every week, and I wasn't enough of a regular with any particular vendor that I'd expect them to remember me. But perhaps I underestimate my own, er, memorability!
Deborah did say that she's been groped in the metro a few times; this happens when it's crowded enough that someone thinks he can't be identified in the crowd (and sometimes he's right) and can get away with it. It's called palpeggiamento (groping) and is an arrestable offense - including when it happens, as it sometimes does, at the office (not ours).
Deborah's usual response on the metro is to step backwards onto the offender's foot with her sharp high heel, then turn around and say sweetly, "Did I step on your foot? I'm soooo sorry."
Bellastar, you're right - I did contradict myself. I was trying to express that, while I had lived in the neighborhood for years and been to the market many times, I had never been propositioned in any way there, not even in the earliest days. On the other hand, it was a travelling weekly market whose vendors see thousands of people every week, and I wasn't enough of a regular with any particular vendor that I'd expect them to remember me. But perhaps I underestimate my own, er, memorability!
Nov 1st, 2006, 02:31 AM
#44
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Hi Dierdre=
I like the high heel stomping story, sounds like another take on the hat pin trick my grandmother and mother talked about.
We have a few groper/flasher types on the NY subways too- and one of my favorite stories is the one that happened last year, when some guy exposed himself to a woman sitting across from him in a fairly deserted car- she took out her camera/cell phone and took his picture "in action" as it were, and promptly sent it to the NY Post (daily paper) where it showed up on the Cover! The guy turned out to be a known restaurant owner-it did wonders for his reputation!
Another female artist here did a six month project where she shot pictures of all the construction workers who harassed her verbally-which freaked them out quite a bit- she published them in a book along with quotes.
Groping is an arrestable offense here too, if you can catch the person. Nothing acceptable about it.
I like the high heel stomping story, sounds like another take on the hat pin trick my grandmother and mother talked about.
We have a few groper/flasher types on the NY subways too- and one of my favorite stories is the one that happened last year, when some guy exposed himself to a woman sitting across from him in a fairly deserted car- she took out her camera/cell phone and took his picture "in action" as it were, and promptly sent it to the NY Post (daily paper) where it showed up on the Cover! The guy turned out to be a known restaurant owner-it did wonders for his reputation!
Another female artist here did a six month project where she shot pictures of all the construction workers who harassed her verbally-which freaked them out quite a bit- she published them in a book along with quotes.
Groping is an arrestable offense here too, if you can catch the person. Nothing acceptable about it.
Nov 1st, 2006, 05:15 AM
#45
We just got back from a week in Tuscany, following a week in Rome at easter, and neither my 19 year old daughter or i had any problems at all with the local males. Not sure which of us was the more disappointed!
Nov 1st, 2006, 09:22 AM
#47
Um, PofP...as an independent-minded woman who has no qualms about expressing herself in a room full of men, I respectfully offer this concept to you: enjoying attention for one's charms is not even remotely the same as inviting harassment.
Nov 1st, 2006, 09:53 AM
#48
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no, that isn't the concept. I felt the exact same way when I read that post and all the other posts from tourists on here who talk about how they get ego boosts from strangers harrassing them in Italy.
That post indicating disappointment that local males did not give them "problems" (her exact words, she regretted she didn't have problems) is not the same as someone just accepting a compliment from a male in a reasonable environment or situation. Strange men catcalling and harrassing you on the street is not what any civilized, well-mannered or respectful male does, and women who want strange men to give them problems and regret it when they don't because they have insecure egos and have to get their kicks that way is exactly why so many low-class men in Italy continue to do this to female tourists. I don't know why any woman would feel flattered for some strange lech in Italy to make remarks on the street to them, as if that means they have some special charm or something.
That post indicating disappointment that local males did not give them "problems" (her exact words, she regretted she didn't have problems) is not the same as someone just accepting a compliment from a male in a reasonable environment or situation. Strange men catcalling and harrassing you on the street is not what any civilized, well-mannered or respectful male does, and women who want strange men to give them problems and regret it when they don't because they have insecure egos and have to get their kicks that way is exactly why so many low-class men in Italy continue to do this to female tourists. I don't know why any woman would feel flattered for some strange lech in Italy to make remarks on the street to them, as if that means they have some special charm or something.
Nov 1st, 2006, 09:59 AM
#49
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annhig--I know what you mean. (I'm afraid that some here are very literal-minded.) I very much doubt you want to have been groped. But it is not unheard of for people to go to foreign countries in hope of some attention from (or even romance with) the handsome locals.
Even more likely, you were just making a joke. People need to lighten up...
Even more likely, you were just making a joke. People need to lighten up...
Nov 1st, 2006, 10:49 AM
#50
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Cimbrone, you're right-- lightening up is always a good idea in my book. However, I also have to say that Christina hit the nail on the head with her dead-on summation.
Cultural differences taken into account, I think it breaks down like this: Respectful attention, YES; Unwelcomed advances, NO.
Anyway, it's an interesting topic, the OP's question regarding what is "customary and acceptable" in a country.
Cultural differences taken into account, I think it breaks down like this: Respectful attention, YES; Unwelcomed advances, NO.
Anyway, it's an interesting topic, the OP's question regarding what is "customary and acceptable" in a country.
Nov 1st, 2006, 04:00 PM
#51
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Soooo, it seems that "pinching" may still be more customary than not in Italy and is mostly unnacceptable, unless invited; that fantasy may surpass the reality for a few "disappointed" women, and the the choices of an "acceptable" reponse, depending on who you ask, can be any of the following:
ignoring them, while fuming inside
a tongue lashing
dragging them home by the ear to their mother
a kick in the groin
a knuckle sandwich
pinching back
a severe foot stomping with a high heeled shoe
"secretly" enjoying it
reporting them to the polizia who will of course arrest them immediately.
So many options, it makes one's head spin! Good luck sorting it all out, valsa!
ignoring them, while fuming inside
a tongue lashing
dragging them home by the ear to their mother
a kick in the groin
a knuckle sandwich
pinching back
a severe foot stomping with a high heeled shoe
"secretly" enjoying it
reporting them to the polizia who will of course arrest them immediately.
So many options, it makes one's head spin! Good luck sorting it all out, valsa!
Nov 2nd, 2006, 10:56 AM
#56
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So, inspired by this thread, I wrote an article for my site today about how fondling women in public really isn't acceptable in modern Italy. I finished the article on the train, got it all queued up to load onto my site as soon as I got back to Internet access at the office.
Walking into the office, I met my boss heading out to have coffee. And he patted me on the butt.
Yes, I laughed.
best regards,
Deirdré Straughan
beginningwithi.com
Walking into the office, I met my boss heading out to have coffee. And he patted me on the butt.
Yes, I laughed.
best regards,
Deirdré Straughan
beginningwithi.com
