Pinching in Italy?
Oct 29th, 2006, 08:00 AM
#22
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Deirdre-
If you were with your friend on your own neighborhood, could it be that the men in the marketplace and the neighborhood knew you as a local person (or married to a local) and as such, would not approach you this way?
Your friend was someone they hadn't seen before, so maybe they considered her fair game, as it were?
The incident that happened to me on Ischia happened as I was walking (alone) along the road to my hotel carrying some things I had just bought at a market. The Vespa guy sped up to me from behind and totally took me by surprise, so I don't think I was "looking for" anything except getting to my hotel to change for dinner! Not every female who experiencies this is wandering the streets looking for a pinch around every corner!
In your friend's case, maybe it was different?
If you were with your friend on your own neighborhood, could it be that the men in the marketplace and the neighborhood knew you as a local person (or married to a local) and as such, would not approach you this way?
Your friend was someone they hadn't seen before, so maybe they considered her fair game, as it were?
The incident that happened to me on Ischia happened as I was walking (alone) along the road to my hotel carrying some things I had just bought at a market. The Vespa guy sped up to me from behind and totally took me by surprise, so I don't think I was "looking for" anything except getting to my hotel to change for dinner! Not every female who experiencies this is wandering the streets looking for a pinch around every corner!
In your friend's case, maybe it was different?
Oct 29th, 2006, 08:16 AM
#23
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Sounds like it could almost be a marketing ploy. After all, there actually are some folks "of the certain age" (what DOES that mean????..over 25???) who might actually be delighted at the prospect of some Italian, stud or otherwsie, trying to grab a pice of skin, unavailable or otherwise.
Oct 29th, 2006, 08:47 AM
#24
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I beg to differ with most other posters. When my daughter studied in Florence last semester, in their orientation the students were told that it IS acceptable in Italy for men to approach and touch women they don't even know. They advised the young women to simply ignore the advances.
When I visited for two weeks with her in Italy, my daughter was spoken to and touched by several men we passed by on the sidewalks. She's fairly tall, and blonde, so maybe got more attention. But it was a nuisance, and an everyday occurrence for her.
She was good at just walking by and paying no attention to it, but believe me, as her Mom walking with her, it ticked me off. Especially when the young men would then say something very offensive, when ignored. One man even reached out and touched her mouth!
We went to Nice for a few days and were happy to find a different atmosphere there. More blondes, and my daughter didn't get harassed there.
So I'd advise women to have a thick skin when visiting Italy.
>-
When I visited for two weeks with her in Italy, my daughter was spoken to and touched by several men we passed by on the sidewalks. She's fairly tall, and blonde, so maybe got more attention. But it was a nuisance, and an everyday occurrence for her.
She was good at just walking by and paying no attention to it, but believe me, as her Mom walking with her, it ticked me off. Especially when the young men would then say something very offensive, when ignored. One man even reached out and touched her mouth!
We went to Nice for a few days and were happy to find a different atmosphere there. More blondes, and my daughter didn't get harassed there.
So I'd advise women to have a thick skin when visiting Italy.
>-
Oct 29th, 2006, 11:36 AM
#27
I'll probably get blasted for saying this, but...
One reason that blondes, especially large blondes, reputedly get unwanted attention in Italy is because they're assumed to be either American or Dutch or Scandinavian, the stereotype of the "sexually available" woman.
Also, American women sometimes have a bit of a Puritanical sense of sexuality, and it's pretty easy to pick up on, making them a reliable target for provocation. It's like when your kids play: when Sally wants attention from Susie, one surefire way of getting it is by nudging Susie; and nothing gives Sally more satisfaction than when Susie reacts in a huff!
Sometimes, too, the outrage women purport to have is a cover for the secret pleasure they feel about being considered "special" in a way they may not be considered at home (or in a way they may not allow themselves to enjoy at home).
'Course, there's also that factor of what a good story it makes. ("You wouldn't believe how aggressive those Eye-talyun men are; why they just wouldn't leave me alone!"
As in any other situation, women who are confident but not overly self-conscious generally are adept at handling the attention they receive -- both the wanted & the unwanted. Just my opinion!
One reason that blondes, especially large blondes, reputedly get unwanted attention in Italy is because they're assumed to be either American or Dutch or Scandinavian, the stereotype of the "sexually available" woman.
Also, American women sometimes have a bit of a Puritanical sense of sexuality, and it's pretty easy to pick up on, making them a reliable target for provocation. It's like when your kids play: when Sally wants attention from Susie, one surefire way of getting it is by nudging Susie; and nothing gives Sally more satisfaction than when Susie reacts in a huff!
Sometimes, too, the outrage women purport to have is a cover for the secret pleasure they feel about being considered "special" in a way they may not be considered at home (or in a way they may not allow themselves to enjoy at home).
'Course, there's also that factor of what a good story it makes. ("You wouldn't believe how aggressive those Eye-talyun men are; why they just wouldn't leave me alone!"
As in any other situation, women who are confident but not overly self-conscious generally are adept at handling the attention they receive -- both the wanted & the unwanted. Just my opinion!
Oct 29th, 2006, 01:11 PM
#29
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I was really upset on my first trip to Italy ...30 or more years ago..my bottom was never pinched once, and at the time it was a fiarly nice one! However my DH's was grabbed a few times by those saucy Italian girls..or maybe they were American!
Oct 29th, 2006, 01:42 PM
#30
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LucieV, I do understand your point. And I'm sure you're not saying that some women deserve this type of treatment, or that men are excused who act so boorishly. Women who are confident can rise above such silliness, but it does get old after several weeks of it. Not all women welcome being verbally and physically approached, when all they want to do is cross the street for heaven's sake.
>-
>-
Oct 29th, 2006, 03:01 PM
#31
MaureenG, yes. The only point with which I might disagree with you is on the use of the word "boorish". I think certain behavior that is acceptable in one culture may appear "boorish" (or inappropriate or hostile or whatever) to those of another culture.
E.g., were I to be openly stared at in the US, I'd be paranoid. OTOH, in another part of the world, I'd be paranoid if people were to ~avoid~ eye contact with me.
I understand your frustration, but I honestly don't think that Italian men are being rude or hostile in the behavior you describe. They may be guilty of being insensitive to the mores of American women, but is that fair to expect when we are on their turf?
When my DH & I were much younger, we travelled a bit in Turkey. Naive & probably a bit spoiled, we were so appalled by their inefficiency, their "crudeness", their lack of concern for things that WE considered to be crucial. We got so frustrated with a bus company one afternoon, we made a***s of ourselves trying to make THEM understand US. We laugh about it now, but we both also realize how lucky we were that they didn't tell us to go jump off the nearest minaret.
Sometimes I feel like we almost havta be anthropologists when we travel, even in our own country (how many times do we hear people complain about "brusque" New Yorkers or "taciturn" New Englanders?)! And, of course, a sense of humor is always valuable, though godknows there are times when we take ourselves so seriously, even that doesn't help!
E.g., were I to be openly stared at in the US, I'd be paranoid. OTOH, in another part of the world, I'd be paranoid if people were to ~avoid~ eye contact with me.
I understand your frustration, but I honestly don't think that Italian men are being rude or hostile in the behavior you describe. They may be guilty of being insensitive to the mores of American women, but is that fair to expect when we are on their turf?
When my DH & I were much younger, we travelled a bit in Turkey. Naive & probably a bit spoiled, we were so appalled by their inefficiency, their "crudeness", their lack of concern for things that WE considered to be crucial. We got so frustrated with a bus company one afternoon, we made a***s of ourselves trying to make THEM understand US. We laugh about it now, but we both also realize how lucky we were that they didn't tell us to go jump off the nearest minaret.
Sometimes I feel like we almost havta be anthropologists when we travel, even in our own country (how many times do we hear people complain about "brusque" New Yorkers or "taciturn" New Englanders?)! And, of course, a sense of humor is always valuable, though godknows there are times when we take ourselves so seriously, even that doesn't help!
Oct 29th, 2006, 04:39 PM
#32
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I visited Rome 20 - 25 years ago. The waiter who showed me my table pinched my a**e. Whilst I was most indignant I got my own back - I waited until his hands were full (in this case a tray full of wines glasses)and pinched HIS a**e. Needless to say he was not happy and I certainly did not leave him a tip!
Oct 29th, 2006, 04:50 PM
#33
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Good points, Lucie. I majored in cultural anthropology, and I agree to a point. However, in any language, anywhere, when a man starts calling a woman foul names and using F language to her, that's not appropriate in any culture. Good manners are universal.
Oct 29th, 2006, 07:33 PM
#34
I do agree, Maureen. Nastiness is a whole 'nother ballgame. Universally reprehensible.
(I majored in cultural anthro, too, btw...I loved every minute of it, had some great profs, but often feel I have to apologize when asked what I majored in!)
(I majored in cultural anthro, too, btw...I loved every minute of it, had some great profs, but often feel I have to apologize when asked what I majored in!)
Oct 29th, 2006, 08:09 PM
#36
Apologize may not be the right word. I guess I've always felt that it wasn't perceived as "practical" (as opposed to medicine, law, yadayadayada). But since "practical" is not something high on my list of priorities anyway, I'm only half-kidding when I say I feel the need to apologize for majoring in anthro! In any case, I don't for one second regret my studies, as they were so right for me--& I feel really fortunate to have had parents who encouraged all of us to major in whatever we wanted to...
Oct 30th, 2006, 02:37 AM
#37
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Re. me being familiar in the marketplace, not so much - I didn't go there all that often. And I'm as blonde and curved and the same age (about 35 then) as my friend, though not working so hard to be attractive. So the whole thing stumped me.
I don't think most Italian women would put up with being touched by a man uninvited, and I wonder if advice such as that given to the student in Firenze has helped perpetuate bad behavior - all the foreign women students have been advised to ignore it, "It's part of the culture," so the young men in Firenze know they can get away with it, and may be trying it on just to see how far they can go with these dumb foreigners!
Personally, I'd slap them silly and/or prove just how well I know Italian, and possibly drag them home by the ear to explain their behavior to their mothers (you can bet they're still living at home). There is no reason to put up with behavior YOU consider invasive, anywhere in the world.
best regards,
Deirdré Straughan
beginningwithi.com
I don't think most Italian women would put up with being touched by a man uninvited, and I wonder if advice such as that given to the student in Firenze has helped perpetuate bad behavior - all the foreign women students have been advised to ignore it, "It's part of the culture," so the young men in Firenze know they can get away with it, and may be trying it on just to see how far they can go with these dumb foreigners!
Personally, I'd slap them silly and/or prove just how well I know Italian, and possibly drag them home by the ear to explain their behavior to their mothers (you can bet they're still living at home). There is no reason to put up with behavior YOU consider invasive, anywhere in the world.
best regards,
Deirdré Straughan
beginningwithi.com
Oct 30th, 2006, 03:45 AM
#39
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My mistake, dear Deirdre! Your first post said you had been to that market many times before, so I naturally thought you were a familiar face there.
As far as being blonde, I am not blonde, and am in my fifties, which didn't seem to matter much to the guy.
While I agree with you that female students in Firenze are being given less than perfect information, this male behavior is absolutely not limited to Firenze, not by a long shot.
OTOH, I don't know if "slapping them silly" is the best plan for a student or a tourist. (But it sounds good, as a concept!) I have been approached more than a few times, even when I wasn't dressed "attractively". My best defense is to learn the language enough to fight back verbally. Which has worked well on several occasions. I have no fear of verbal confrontation about this sort of thing, and do not hesitate to talk back, in strong language. But I would never get physical as a response unless I were being grabbed violently.
I agree that most Italian women would not put up with it, but they are not necessarily free of harasssment either. And remember, Italian men are raised and sometimes spoiled silly by Italian mothers. When you mix that with peer pressure, the results are easy to anticipate.
To balance things, I have found that 99% of the men in Italy who do this are quite harmless, and a few words, or even making fun of them is enough to send them on their way. Talking back sends the message that the woman is confident and won't tolerate the behavior, whereas "ignoring them" allows the men to keep seeing her as an object.
Just my opinion and experience.
Have a great day, wish I were there right now!
As far as being blonde, I am not blonde, and am in my fifties, which didn't seem to matter much to the guy.
While I agree with you that female students in Firenze are being given less than perfect information, this male behavior is absolutely not limited to Firenze, not by a long shot.
OTOH, I don't know if "slapping them silly" is the best plan for a student or a tourist. (But it sounds good, as a concept!) I have been approached more than a few times, even when I wasn't dressed "attractively". My best defense is to learn the language enough to fight back verbally. Which has worked well on several occasions. I have no fear of verbal confrontation about this sort of thing, and do not hesitate to talk back, in strong language. But I would never get physical as a response unless I were being grabbed violently.
I agree that most Italian women would not put up with it, but they are not necessarily free of harasssment either. And remember, Italian men are raised and sometimes spoiled silly by Italian mothers. When you mix that with peer pressure, the results are easy to anticipate.
To balance things, I have found that 99% of the men in Italy who do this are quite harmless, and a few words, or even making fun of them is enough to send them on their way. Talking back sends the message that the woman is confident and won't tolerate the behavior, whereas "ignoring them" allows the men to keep seeing her as an object.
Just my opinion and experience.
Have a great day, wish I were there right now!
Oct 30th, 2006, 03:59 AM
#40
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While I still contend that the pinching Italian is mainly a caricature from days gone by, uninvited groping does occur, and way too often. But let's not confuse the fact that it happens with the mistaken belief that it's acceptable. After all, Italy is a Western society and this is the 21st century! I agree with a lot of what Deirdre said, these guys would not get away with this with Italian women. But for some reason, foreign tourists feel all flattered and giggly when the transgressor is a guy named Fabio with an accent. Think about it, would you react the same way if you were groped by a stranger named Bob in Hoboken? There are plenty of polite, upstanding men in Italy (even ones named Fabio LOL) who treat women with respect and wouldn't dream of groping strangers. Don't be fooled by the disrespectful ones just because you're standing in front of the Trevi fountain - these guys deserve nothing better than a knuckle sandwich on a slice of focaccia in response to their boorish, and totally unacceptable, behavior
