Fussgaenger

"...they also treat women as 2nd class citizens - denying them being pope or priests."

I've no issue with Catholics or Muslims that do this because I live in a free society where you choose your religion. It's legal and punishment-free to hold stupid beliefs. I've got a huge issue with Islamic governments (or Catholic governments, whatever/wherever those might be!) that would codify gender-specific treatments.

kerouac

What about Israel, which only accepts divorces initiated by the husband?

pariswat

Yes !!!!!!!
Women should not even be allowed the right to vote ... as was the case in CH till 1971. and Portugal till 1974.

La place des femmes, c'est aux casserolles !!!
Et à torcher le cul des mômes !

Fussgaenger

"What about Israel, which only accepts divorces initiated by the husband?"

"Yes !!!!!!!"

I believe that women CAN initiate divorce but husbands must APPROVE it. Pretty stupid.

IMO government has no right or duty at all to approve or disapprove of marriages - that's just intervention into personal relationships. If a couple seeks approval from a religion to marry, that's their business. A government-issued marriage license serves only as a tool for discrimination against single people - people who choose not to marry or whose chances of finding a marital partner are, for whatever reason, very slim. A marriage license comes with tax breaks and other privileges that you can't get as an individual. So much for individual rights.

So I think you can look at even exceptional societies like the USA, Switzerland, etc. where human and civil rights are a big priority and still find discriminatory flaws that require review. But societies with a preponderance of basic human rights deficiencies should get the stink-eye and sanctions, not "partnerships." If you're putting people to death for changing their own religious views, you're a very, very sick place that merits the strongest sort of rejection.

pariswat

Doesn't US put people to death ?
In Europe it is considered incompatible with democracy.

Ps : Fuess, you really believe all the sh1t you write ?

otherchelebi

It is incredible how some people read what is not there when they are already prejudiced or biased against a person and/or his views.


I clearly wrote "Anyone who uses religion, any religion, as the reason and justification for his treatment of any other person or persons is a POTENTIAL terrorist." therebye exonerating or absolving me from exactly the same approach as some posters practice frequently on Fodors Lounge.

Once the prejudice is set and solid, words like "potential" loose their meanings.

I did not say "government" either.

And it is apparent that we are talking about curtailing rights and not preferential treatment because of empathy, social welfare, humanitarianism, compassion, love when I included "age" to mean children or the elderly.

I am already deeply disturbed because two egomaniacs are playing with each others' words (just as some fodorites do here) and act stupidly to bring Russia and Turkey to the brink of war with no sign of Tim Robins to step in and save the day.

Intellectuals, reporters, media bosses, artists, atheists, agnostics, Alevites, writers, thinkers are under a huge state of siege and threat in my country. Just today, an outspoken president of the bar association of a Southeastern city near the Syrian border was assasinated with one pistol shot to the head in a shoot-out between two terrorists and tens of police when the terrorists were running for their lives with no chance to use their rifles.

Two days ago two well-known journalists were arrested for headlining photographs of the government trucks carrying rockets and ammunition to Syria with crates opened by the unknowing police despite protests of the Turkish Intelligence agents who tried to say it was all humanitarian aid.

This has been public knowledge for almost a year but the government still used it against the journalists accusing them of spying, acting against the interests of the Turkish government and aiding terrorism.

sandralist

Well, finally, Fuess. Glad to see somebody else supporting the boycott and disinvestment agenda against Israel. The murderous assault on and denial of human rights against the indigenous people of the region, Christian and Muslim, in the name of creating and preserving a Jewish homeland has been a real betrayal of all your values. At least you know you are not alone:

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/...i-universities

sandralist

(But please drop the "exceptional societies" crap. It's so obnoxious and hypocritical, and it just screams "I'm so white!")

Fussgaenger

"Doesn't US put people to death ?"

Facetious question. Yes. For murder. Not for fornication, burglary, or apostasy as in Saudi Arabia. And humanely. We abandoned stoning long before we became a country.

Execution stops the killing - it protects prison guards, fellow inmates, and the public from prison escapees. As Democrat NY Mayor Ed Koch said, "When we protect guilty lives, we give up innocent lives in exchange."

http://admin.faulkner.edu/admin/webs...rmack/koch.pdf

"Ps : Fuess, you really believe all the sh1t you write ?"
Swat: Do you only discuss things with people you agree with 100%? You seem unable to respond except with pejoratives. It really isn't hard to find someone with views similar to mine. In fact I know very few who think that despite its occasional moral failings, the US should turn a blind eye to human rights violations around the planet. Not that we don't. Saudi Arabia is a particularly egregious example of the duplicity we sometimes exhibit.

sandralist

>>>"In fact I know very few who think that despite its occasional moral failings, the US should turn a blind eye to human rights violations around the planet. "<<<<

Is it unfair to ask how old you are? How much American history have you missed in your own lifetime? What is "exceptional" about US foreign policy is its exceptional level of hypocrisy when it comes to using murderous military might to impose its beliefs on other people.

Organized religion is really easy to kick, but you have to be deliberately not looking not to notice that Americans have been cloaking pure greed and the exploitation and murder of hundreds of thousands of people with a sickening pretense of bringing "democracy" and "human rights" and "liberation" to the oppressed.

You are really living in a goo-goo infantile fantasy world if you think America is some virtuous actor in the world, defending the downtrodden. It doesn't even do that in America. I don't know how you are going to get yourself out of this mental hole, but you're not going to persuade any thinking person whose read a serious history book about America's genocidal, racist, utterly greedy bent. You're time would be better spent reading the New York Review of Books or something.

pariswat

'You seem unable to respond except with pejoratives'

Don't think so. Only with islamophobic and/or racist, antisemitc, antiblack etc.

sandralist

This thread reminds me that there isn't a dime's worth of moral difference between any culture's "Promised Land" and their willingness to kill to have it, and their willingness to keep killing, keep hating, in an ever more frantic attempt to hold out to their world they are the truly moral people, spreading virtue -- whether it is the caliphate, the Third Reich, the "Lost Cause", the Holy Land, Manifest Destiny, "exceptionalism" -- or increasingly just the American Dream.

During the early years of the civil rights movement, an ordinary white racist was interviewed in Mississippi, and asked just why he was so opposed to ending segregation. He replied: "We killed Indian babies to have this country, and we are not handing over it to n*gg*rs."

People seldom understand what produced America and that the America they live in today is a crazy spawn of that unexamined past. One of the very few cultures to ever look down the barrel of its own rotten history is present day Germany. It's impressive what they've achieved -- one might even say exceptional. And the large majority of Americans haven't a clue.

pariswat

'One of the very few cultures to ever look down the barrel of its own rotten history is present day Germany.'

Been telling my german friends the same for decades now.
Western Germany, unfortunately less in the east.

When in the army, we were taught we had a moral duty (and a right) to disobey orders we found unethical. It was explained as one of the achievements of Nurnmberg trial. Use you brain, don't hide behind orders.

I've been trying to read about massacres/slaughters and simple utter disregard for human life in Zaire at time of belgian colonization but haven't yet found a good balanced account of events there. I don't know of one people who can claim they are 'clean' - however acknowledging what has been done in our past is quite necessary to assess our future behaviour.

Sandra, you're really quite good on this thread.

Fussgaenger

Well thanks so much for the history primer. Very helpful to learn that we're no different from Nazis or ISIS. And of course, why didn't I know this, it's the racist Mississippian, so lovingly who best represents the typical unread American.

"People seldom understand what produced America..."

I guess I've had it all wrong. I guess it wasn't the American Indians who first had slaves here. And I guess it wasn't EUROPEAN colonist-farmers that spread slavery more widely. I guess those slave holders must have all been Americans - even before there was an America. After all, only Americans are cruel enough and racist enough to hold slaves. And it wasn't abolitionist Americans who from America's inception began moving to free slaves - and did - almost as soon as the Revolutionary War rifles had cooled off. That must have come about in some other fashion that I am unaware of because, after all, I am just your average (typically ignorant) American.

No, you guys don't deal in cliches and ignorance.

It is certainly possible to find "a serious history book about America's genocidal, racist, utterly greedy bent" in this country, where anyone is free to publish any trash he wishes without fear of reprisal.

But if that's ALL you've been able to find, sandralist, then I'd be pleased to send you a decent reading list.

Fussgaenger

Edit:

"...it's the racist Mississippian, so lovingly PORTRAYED BY SANDRALIST, who best represents the typical unread American."

kerouac

I would like to propose a little interlude from all of the ranting and raving on this thread.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPpS0r19D9M

Cowboy1968

Thank you, kerouac.
Very touching.

fuzzbucket

Just don't forget that human beings have always enslaved their brothers since the Dawn of Time. No culture, no nation, no ideology is to blame - it's human nature, and we are all guilty (at one time or another) of thinking that we are better than someone else.

I was at La Belle Equipe yesterday, kerouac - the tributes are piled waist-high there. I still cannot figure out why this little place was targeted.

August2015

How is it going with the Climate Change summit starting tomorrow?

PalenQ

CNN shows some small-scale protesters being tear gassed at Republique but the mass protests of thousands did not materialize in accordance with city of Paris' order against large demonstrations or gatherings - that was 4-5 hours ago though.