Paris Under Seige...
Nov 25th, 2015, 09:07 AM
#262
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You Muslim apologists must be so very proud. About 13,000 killings from the combined terrorist attacks of ISIS and Boko Haram alone in 2014. And 2015 a banner year as well.
What are your numbers for the Klan, sandralist?
What are your numbers for the Klan, sandralist?
Nov 25th, 2015, 10:00 AM
#264
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No, Fuesganger, white Christian churches in many, many parts of the south preached a study drumbeat of bigotry and fear-mongering about miscegenation, race mixing, protecting southern womanhood -- and it wasn't until fairly late in the civil rights movement that Protestants and Catholics made themselves very visible and vocal about bringing about an end to this, and their were internal ruptures in some church organisations (like there is today about same-sex marriage), with the bigots clinging on.
Calling people "Muslim apologists" is the same bigotry as people who talk about "Jewish apologists" when criticising many of the policies of Israel. Most people do not try to make any connection between violent and repressive policies and Judaism, and if they do, right-minded people are quick to be very vocal about just how unfactual and wrong that is. And rightly so. All of us know that there is no universal agreement among Jews about the Israeli occupation and how the government behaves. No one sees anything in the Old Testament that could be construed as legitimate basis of this, even as some Israeli groups tout precisely that line. Everyone can see the difference between the religious observance of Judaism or even the simple self-identification of one being a Jew and a political agenda that only claims to be defending jewish values and peoples when it is not.
But for the bigots stewing against Muslims, no such courtesy or thoughtfulness is admissible. Probably because the anti-Muslim bigots don't actually know any Muslims, and know nothing about Islam. They feed off of anti-Muslim websites and other propaganda like the anti-Semites before them, the anti-Catholics before them, anti-Lutheran, anti-Calvanists, blah blah. It's all the same s++*, just different a++hol**.
I don't care which religion people invoke to do their psychopathic killing in pursuit of some psychopathic identity politics. I only care that people use their brains rationally to figure out how to stop them. Hard work.
Calling people "Muslim apologists" is the same bigotry as people who talk about "Jewish apologists" when criticising many of the policies of Israel. Most people do not try to make any connection between violent and repressive policies and Judaism, and if they do, right-minded people are quick to be very vocal about just how unfactual and wrong that is. And rightly so. All of us know that there is no universal agreement among Jews about the Israeli occupation and how the government behaves. No one sees anything in the Old Testament that could be construed as legitimate basis of this, even as some Israeli groups tout precisely that line. Everyone can see the difference between the religious observance of Judaism or even the simple self-identification of one being a Jew and a political agenda that only claims to be defending jewish values and peoples when it is not.
But for the bigots stewing against Muslims, no such courtesy or thoughtfulness is admissible. Probably because the anti-Muslim bigots don't actually know any Muslims, and know nothing about Islam. They feed off of anti-Muslim websites and other propaganda like the anti-Semites before them, the anti-Catholics before them, anti-Lutheran, anti-Calvanists, blah blah. It's all the same s++*, just different a++hol**.
I don't care which religion people invoke to do their psychopathic killing in pursuit of some psychopathic identity politics. I only care that people use their brains rationally to figure out how to stop them. Hard work.
Nov 25th, 2015, 10:19 AM
#265
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For people unfamiliar with the history of the Klan, this is a pretty good short article from Global Security
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...lux-klan-2.htm
But also -- in case my point wasn't clear -- I brought up the KKK not to say that it killed as many people as ISIS or was just as scary -- but to say that even though the KKK's emblazoned its white sheets with Christian crosses and famously burned Christian crosses at its rallies, and spouted Christian phrases from the Bible, foaming at the mouth, people don't blame Christians and Christianity for the KKK. Why? Because it would so obviously stupid to do that. Apparently lots of confused people haven't figured out yet how stupid they sound making that mistake about ISIS.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...lux-klan-2.htm
But also -- in case my point wasn't clear -- I brought up the KKK not to say that it killed as many people as ISIS or was just as scary -- but to say that even though the KKK's emblazoned its white sheets with Christian crosses and famously burned Christian crosses at its rallies, and spouted Christian phrases from the Bible, foaming at the mouth, people don't blame Christians and Christianity for the KKK. Why? Because it would so obviously stupid to do that. Apparently lots of confused people haven't figured out yet how stupid they sound making that mistake about ISIS.
Nov 25th, 2015, 12:09 PM
#266
Another reason is because Christianity is the faith of the majority where the KKK operated. So there were plenty of other examples of good Christianity to counterbalance the KKK abominations. The problem with the Muslim attacks in the West is that Islam is the minority religion -- so every Muslim is looked upon with suspicion for the moment by a lot of people.
Believe me, if an extremist Jewish group had carried out these attacks on the basis, say, of "these people are not respecting the Sabbath," the Jewish population, which is even a smaller minority than the Muslims, would be looked at askance as well. But if an extremist Christian group had done the same thing ("we are ridding the world of devil worshippers"), nobody would blame the Christian majority, because we all know that most Christians are not like that.
India could probably teach us some lessons about that (but not very good lessons) since every time a minority group in the area does something reprehensible, the majority group starts slaughtering them.
Believe me, if an extremist Jewish group had carried out these attacks on the basis, say, of "these people are not respecting the Sabbath," the Jewish population, which is even a smaller minority than the Muslims, would be looked at askance as well. But if an extremist Christian group had done the same thing ("we are ridding the world of devil worshippers"), nobody would blame the Christian majority, because we all know that most Christians are not like that.
India could probably teach us some lessons about that (but not very good lessons) since every time a minority group in the area does something reprehensible, the majority group starts slaughtering them.
Nov 25th, 2015, 12:21 PM
#267
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The problem with the Muslim attacks in the West is that Islam is the minority religion -- so every Muslim is looked upon with suspicion for the moment by a lot of people.>
And so it is I fear with many ordinary French - like again my son's family members and friends - he just said today that - he recently returned from a month in France visiting family and friends - that most it seemed had a fear of losing 'frenchness' and a general sympathy to vote perhaps for Ms Le Pen or some ilk in the next election - probably not but they are giving it thought."
Thus most of French Muslims - good hard-working people probably are suffering from the jihad actions of a very few. That to me is a sad fall-out if true and if true that many French fear they are losing 'our frenchness'.
KKK is a good analogy perhaps but most of the country viewed them as nut-cases but the above talk is sobering - now if the French psuedo-Christian majority overreacts more and more Muslim alienation will surely take place.
And so it is I fear with many ordinary French - like again my son's family members and friends - he just said today that - he recently returned from a month in France visiting family and friends - that most it seemed had a fear of losing 'frenchness' and a general sympathy to vote perhaps for Ms Le Pen or some ilk in the next election - probably not but they are giving it thought."
Thus most of French Muslims - good hard-working people probably are suffering from the jihad actions of a very few. That to me is a sad fall-out if true and if true that many French fear they are losing 'our frenchness'.
KKK is a good analogy perhaps but most of the country viewed them as nut-cases but the above talk is sobering - now if the French psuedo-Christian majority overreacts more and more Muslim alienation will surely take place.
Nov 25th, 2015, 12:45 PM
#268
"The Muslim majority is only marginally less extreme than ISIS - they are nearly all behind Shariah and thus share too much hatred for the West and too many values with ISIS."
I struggle to know what to say, but let's try. The majority of Muslims world wide and all those I've met, worked with and holidayed with are just like you and me. The love their family, do their work and get on with everyone. Now that is true from Iran to Libya to Turkey. Within the Muslim world there are a bunch of groupings all with slightly different views just like Christians.
The number of people who think that killing people is the right way to get what you want is not really a main thing for religious people. Yes there are a few.
There are people who say they hate the west and they say it into their apple phone, check stuff on google, they use Chinese/Russian/American guns and drive Japanese/Chinese/European cars.
I struggle to know what to say, but let's try. The majority of Muslims world wide and all those I've met, worked with and holidayed with are just like you and me. The love their family, do their work and get on with everyone. Now that is true from Iran to Libya to Turkey. Within the Muslim world there are a bunch of groupings all with slightly different views just like Christians.
The number of people who think that killing people is the right way to get what you want is not really a main thing for religious people. Yes there are a few.
There are people who say they hate the west and they say it into their apple phone, check stuff on google, they use Chinese/Russian/American guns and drive Japanese/Chinese/European cars.
Nov 25th, 2015, 02:18 PM
#269
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Bilbo,
of course the vast majority of Muslims are ok people.
And the vast majority of people saying that 'The Muslim majority is only marginally less extreme than ISIS' are Nazis.
In 1940 they were killing Jews, now they'd like to kill Muslims. ok, no just keep them outside their borders or put them in Guantanamo style prisons - oops sorry, camps.
They will find a lot of good (?) reasons for that and call people who disagree cowards, stupids etc.
But for some, 'Youpins, Métèques, Romanichels, Nègres' are normal people. FN, KKK, and such basterds are natural haters, and they get a field day of spreading their hatred among people full of fear.
Sandra, I really liked 99,9% of what you've been posting here...
of course the vast majority of Muslims are ok people.
And the vast majority of people saying that 'The Muslim majority is only marginally less extreme than ISIS' are Nazis.
In 1940 they were killing Jews, now they'd like to kill Muslims. ok, no just keep them outside their borders or put them in Guantanamo style prisons - oops sorry, camps.
They will find a lot of good (?) reasons for that and call people who disagree cowards, stupids etc.
But for some, 'Youpins, Métèques, Romanichels, Nègres' are normal people. FN, KKK, and such basterds are natural haters, and they get a field day of spreading their hatred among people full of fear.
Sandra, I really liked 99,9% of what you've been posting here...
Nov 25th, 2015, 11:11 PM
#272
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Me too. Obviously someone has been studying history.
This idea of "Frenchness" - of "La Belle France" - is a sentimental holdover dating from the days of The Enlightenment, if not before. Many French people have a bad habit of living in the past, where everybody feels more comfortable than confronting the problems that exist in current day society.
This idea of "Frenchness" - of "La Belle France" - is a sentimental holdover dating from the days of The Enlightenment, if not before. Many French people have a bad habit of living in the past, where everybody feels more comfortable than confronting the problems that exist in current day society.
Nov 25th, 2015, 11:25 PM
#273
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<i>This idea of "Frenchness" - of "La Belle France" - is a sentimental holdover dating from the days of The Enlightenment,</i>
More likely a 19th or 20th century sentiment. The Enlightenment thinkers were too cosmopolitan for that.
More likely a 19th or 20th century sentiment. The Enlightenment thinkers were too cosmopolitan for that.
Nov 26th, 2015, 02:30 AM
#275
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bilbo..
Kudos to you for finding such moderate and well-mannered words in response to the claim that the majority of Muslims is only marginally less extreme than the terrorists.
My only explanation for reaching such a bizarre view of the world is that the respective poster must have no contact at all with Muslims.
Nevertheless, I read the same type of garbage in the FB comments of people I thought I knew well. And who I thought to be educated and well-informed citizens. It really hurts to see the hate and fear these people are spreading among their "friends".
Kudos to you for finding such moderate and well-mannered words in response to the claim that the majority of Muslims is only marginally less extreme than the terrorists.
My only explanation for reaching such a bizarre view of the world is that the respective poster must have no contact at all with Muslims.
Nevertheless, I read the same type of garbage in the FB comments of people I thought I knew well. And who I thought to be educated and well-informed citizens. It really hurts to see the hate and fear these people are spreading among their "friends".
Nov 26th, 2015, 02:48 AM
#276
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Sandralist is 1000% correct about how deeply the KKK was enmeshed in many parts of the U.S. In 1928, for example, an estimated 40,000 Klansmen marched down Pennsylvania Avenue in their white sheets and pointed hats. In some cities, such as Birmingham, Alabama, the KKK formed a network of city officials, police, and corporate leaders such as U.S Steel. See the book written by the daughter of a Birmingham Klansman, Diane McWhorter, "Carry Me Home" --
From the New York Times book review, March 18, 2001: "''Carry Me Home'' is an exhaustive journey through both the segregationist and integrationist sides of Birmingham's struggle. There are few innocents in her depiction, especially on the white side, where the roots of bigotry and murder insinuate themselves into the foundation of the city's ''rule of law'' and the bedrock of its corporate power. Scouring law-enforcement reports, archives, memoirs, personal papers and adding her own interviews, McWhorter, in her first book, expertly follows the tangled threads of culpability until they reveal what she calls ''the long tradition of enmeshment between law enforcers and Klansmen,'' which included the Federal Bureau of Investigation as well as the state and city police."
From the New York Times book review, March 18, 2001: "''Carry Me Home'' is an exhaustive journey through both the segregationist and integrationist sides of Birmingham's struggle. There are few innocents in her depiction, especially on the white side, where the roots of bigotry and murder insinuate themselves into the foundation of the city's ''rule of law'' and the bedrock of its corporate power. Scouring law-enforcement reports, archives, memoirs, personal papers and adding her own interviews, McWhorter, in her first book, expertly follows the tangled threads of culpability until they reveal what she calls ''the long tradition of enmeshment between law enforcers and Klansmen,'' which included the Federal Bureau of Investigation as well as the state and city police."
Nov 26th, 2015, 04:16 AM
#277
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"...of course the vast majority of Muslims are ok people. And the vast majority of people saying that 'The Muslim majority is only marginally less extreme than ISIS' are Nazis."
Whoa. So pathetic to fling that worn out pejorative around.
You might ask yourself how the Nazis got such a reputation for being Nazis. Among other things: antisemitism, religious persecution, excessive ethnic pride, and an intolerance of diversity and other ways of life. Why the exodus of nearly a million Jews in the 40s and 50s from largely Muslim countries? Yup - persecution. FYI it's illegal to practice any religion but Islam in Saudi Arabia. Religious conversion or blasphemy can get you a prison term or much worse. Such laws exist because the Muslim population supports them. Just try being gay, much less marrying one. Wanna have some pre-marital sex? Check the PEW polls - around HALF of all Muslims around the planet support the right of your own family to slit your throat if you do. Why? To preserve the honor of the family, of course.
"The majority of Muslims world wide and all those I've met, worked with and holidayed with are just like you and me. The love their family, do their work and get on with everyone. Now that is true from Iran to Libya to Turkey."
We can trust your word on the benign nature of the average Muslim, or we can look at the facts. A 2013 Pew poll of Muslims in Pakistan, Turkey, Tunisia, Jordan and Indonesia found that only 50% could muster disapproval of the TALIBAN. So if we go by the numbers, it appears likely that your vast bevy of Muslim friends might include a few folks who approve of madrassas, public stonings, bans on TV, etc. and a religious police force to ensure conformity with their mandates. Lovely people, I'm sure.
It's hard to see what part of "extreme" you find so incomprehensible.
We all WANT to have faith in human nature and in the notion that no one else could ever out-Nazi the Nazis. But do you want that so badly that you ignore the volumes of data that say you're wrong?
Whoa. So pathetic to fling that worn out pejorative around.
You might ask yourself how the Nazis got such a reputation for being Nazis. Among other things: antisemitism, religious persecution, excessive ethnic pride, and an intolerance of diversity and other ways of life. Why the exodus of nearly a million Jews in the 40s and 50s from largely Muslim countries? Yup - persecution. FYI it's illegal to practice any religion but Islam in Saudi Arabia. Religious conversion or blasphemy can get you a prison term or much worse. Such laws exist because the Muslim population supports them. Just try being gay, much less marrying one. Wanna have some pre-marital sex? Check the PEW polls - around HALF of all Muslims around the planet support the right of your own family to slit your throat if you do. Why? To preserve the honor of the family, of course.
"The majority of Muslims world wide and all those I've met, worked with and holidayed with are just like you and me. The love their family, do their work and get on with everyone. Now that is true from Iran to Libya to Turkey."
We can trust your word on the benign nature of the average Muslim, or we can look at the facts. A 2013 Pew poll of Muslims in Pakistan, Turkey, Tunisia, Jordan and Indonesia found that only 50% could muster disapproval of the TALIBAN. So if we go by the numbers, it appears likely that your vast bevy of Muslim friends might include a few folks who approve of madrassas, public stonings, bans on TV, etc. and a religious police force to ensure conformity with their mandates. Lovely people, I'm sure.
It's hard to see what part of "extreme" you find so incomprehensible.
We all WANT to have faith in human nature and in the notion that no one else could ever out-Nazi the Nazis. But do you want that so badly that you ignore the volumes of data that say you're wrong?
Nov 26th, 2015, 04:50 AM
#278
Fuss
Trouble is you need to understand the environment in Pakistan/Turkey?/Indonesia. I suspect in some parts of Pakistan the Taliban is an improvement on some of their local government (for instance mass rape of sisters of criminals is enforced within some parts of Pakistan) hence the Taliban would be seen as an improvement. Is that rule part of being a muslim, of course not. Do political parties/news organisations wip up tension to gain power and money (think Trump/Fox etc) or the same in the countries you mention, do the people of Pakistan like having drones hovering over their towns and weddings being blown up, I guess not and I suspect I might Knee-jerk a survey the day after my family got blown up.
Having, myself, used surveys to move people's minds and seen surveys delivered without local understanding and then reported as being clear I think you should take your "data" and question the true meaning and process of the survey and its results. The exact date, what was in the local news etc.
I too decline to use the Term Nazi about stuff, too narrow.
Cowboy, thanks.
Trouble is you need to understand the environment in Pakistan/Turkey?/Indonesia. I suspect in some parts of Pakistan the Taliban is an improvement on some of their local government (for instance mass rape of sisters of criminals is enforced within some parts of Pakistan) hence the Taliban would be seen as an improvement. Is that rule part of being a muslim, of course not. Do political parties/news organisations wip up tension to gain power and money (think Trump/Fox etc) or the same in the countries you mention, do the people of Pakistan like having drones hovering over their towns and weddings being blown up, I guess not and I suspect I might Knee-jerk a survey the day after my family got blown up.
Having, myself, used surveys to move people's minds and seen surveys delivered without local understanding and then reported as being clear I think you should take your "data" and question the true meaning and process of the survey and its results. The exact date, what was in the local news etc.
I too decline to use the Term Nazi about stuff, too narrow.
Cowboy, thanks.
Nov 26th, 2015, 05:20 AM
#279
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Cowboy writes, "It really hurts to see the hate and fear these people are spreading among their 'friends'."
A full third of Germans have unfavorable views of Muslims, according to a 2014 Pew survey, a fact that may stem as much from exposure to and education about Muslims as it does from the ignorance you see behind such views. After all, Germany has been home to Muslims for many years. You now have around 5 million there, I imagine. That unfavorable views are so prevalent is surprising in a country that generally prides itself on tolerance and acceptance. FYI Spain, Poland, Greece and Italy (over 60% unfavorable) have yet dimmer views of Muslims. At 33%, German "Islamophobia" appears relatively modest.
There's a lot of information if you're curious what's really in the minds of a given segment of the population. The UK offers up lots of polls reported in English. For example... A poll taken this year indicates 24% of British Christians believe acts of violence are justified when unfavorable images of Christ are published.
(Outrageous, you say? Oh, wait - I'm wrong. That's British Muslims - and it's ANY image of Mohammed - as in the Charlie Hebdo massacre. Still outrageous though, wouldn't you say?)
It may in fact be the openly-stated beliefs of the European Muslim population itself that makes your fellow Europeans fearful and uncomfortable.
Sharing their opinions isn't spreading fear - it's spreading solid information that is truly scary; in the long run it hurts more to ignore dangerously genocidal thinking trends than it does to acknowledge them and deal with them. But that's a lesson Germans should already understand.
A full third of Germans have unfavorable views of Muslims, according to a 2014 Pew survey, a fact that may stem as much from exposure to and education about Muslims as it does from the ignorance you see behind such views. After all, Germany has been home to Muslims for many years. You now have around 5 million there, I imagine. That unfavorable views are so prevalent is surprising in a country that generally prides itself on tolerance and acceptance. FYI Spain, Poland, Greece and Italy (over 60% unfavorable) have yet dimmer views of Muslims. At 33%, German "Islamophobia" appears relatively modest.
There's a lot of information if you're curious what's really in the minds of a given segment of the population. The UK offers up lots of polls reported in English. For example... A poll taken this year indicates 24% of British Christians believe acts of violence are justified when unfavorable images of Christ are published.
(Outrageous, you say? Oh, wait - I'm wrong. That's British Muslims - and it's ANY image of Mohammed - as in the Charlie Hebdo massacre. Still outrageous though, wouldn't you say?)
It may in fact be the openly-stated beliefs of the European Muslim population itself that makes your fellow Europeans fearful and uncomfortable.
Sharing their opinions isn't spreading fear - it's spreading solid information that is truly scary; in the long run it hurts more to ignore dangerously genocidal thinking trends than it does to acknowledge them and deal with them. But that's a lesson Germans should already understand.
Nov 26th, 2015, 05:45 AM
#280
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bilbo writes, "...I think you should take your "data" and question the true meaning and process of the survey and its results. The exact date, what was in the local news etc."
Your speculations are just that. Pew has a reputation for dealing with such variables. Anyway, let's say your speculations are accurate, and the Pew poll is wrong by 50% - and instead of half the Muslims, a full 3/4 of Muslims in those countries disapprove of the Taliban. Accordingly, 25% do NOT disapprove of the Taliban... Now bilbo, show me any poll anywhere on the planet taken at any time where 25% of believers of ANY OTHER RELIGION think any human being deserves a Taliban-like government.
Since you have experience with such polls, there must be at least some polls somewhere - even if it's only one poorly done poll - that makes polls of Muslim opinion appear humane and tolerant when compared to other religions.
Your speculations are just that. Pew has a reputation for dealing with such variables. Anyway, let's say your speculations are accurate, and the Pew poll is wrong by 50% - and instead of half the Muslims, a full 3/4 of Muslims in those countries disapprove of the Taliban. Accordingly, 25% do NOT disapprove of the Taliban... Now bilbo, show me any poll anywhere on the planet taken at any time where 25% of believers of ANY OTHER RELIGION think any human being deserves a Taliban-like government.
Since you have experience with such polls, there must be at least some polls somewhere - even if it's only one poorly done poll - that makes polls of Muslim opinion appear humane and tolerant when compared to other religions.
