pariswat

If I were Afghan I would enroll as a Taliban just by reading the above posts.

Fussgaenger

"If I were Afghan I would enroll as a Taliban just by reading the above posts."

If the Taliban were still in charge, that would be your only choice. I'm not sure they're looking for spokespersons like you who call people Nazis... If they're like many Muslims, they don't gather political might by building sympathy for Jewish victims; for all I know, the Taliban may even deny the Holocaust, and "you nasty Nazi" may cut very little ice with them

pariswat

If I were afghan and a Taliban you'd be my boss, don't you realize that ?

You'd be saying that the vast majority of the westerners are decadent, soulless people who want world domination (ah, no this is only valid for USA).

pariswat

Some reading.

http://www.metronews.fr/info/nous-mu...lrDWQ.facebook

bilboburgler

Fear is a great driver of news, what part of the internet do you not understand?

For instance look for the surveys on Muslim's love of apple pie, oh no, it doesn't exit, why, let me guess why not? I know, it doesn't drive clicks.

Head in hands.

To quote Trump "we are going to have to have a serious think about these apple pie haters, very serious"

Look, fear is contagious, especially when people gain by amplifying the fear.

sandralist

This is really quite worth reading for people interested in understanding ISIS and the wrongheadedness of the French response to the Paris attacks:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...-equal-partner

Fussgaenger

"...we have to finally start treating the Muslim world as true partners..."

Todenhöfer is an idiot. Partners? That's not what they are looking for. We share little to nothing with these overzealous theocracies that seek only to dominate their own citizens and their "partners" with their religious beliefs, values, and 7th-century practices. We're not giving up our Constitution here.

We already have partners. If they want to be our partners, let them apply to NATO and conform to the requirements made of all NATO partners.

PalenQ

Ah painting all Muslims with the same brush - a slippery slope that will lead to more acrimony not harmony.

I've had Saudis live in my house and there could be no more decent folks around - a relatively few maniacs with a weird interpretation of the Qu'aran get all the attention.

Fuss is certainly part of the problem, not solution.

kerouac

The Maghrebi countries are among the closest partners of France and they are an integral part of our culture. It's not for no reason that couscous is the second most popular dish in France.

Fussgaenger

PalenQ, I am not behind a single one of the terrorist attacks. The attacks are the problem.

"...a relatively few maniacs with a weird interpretation of the Qu'aran..."

It is DISGUSTING that we even attempt to partner up with most Muslim countries. Do you know anything at all about them?

So which Muslim countries would your partners be? You can choose Saudi Arabia, home to 29 million Muslims, where the Qu'aran-based punishments are nearly identical to what ISIS adheres to:

https://twitter.com/MiddleEastEye/st...769792/photo/1

So it's NOT just a few maniacs. And obviously you cannot judge a country based on a few dinners you had in your home with a dozen Saudis.

Maybe you want to cozy up with Malaysia. A few ounces of weed will get you the death penalty there. (They'd no doubt have executed Obama in college.)

Would Iran be your friend? You must appreciate stonings.

Several countries punish homosexual activity with whippings, prison time, or execution.

Tell me - based on your vast experience with Saudis in your own home, would you buddy-up with Saudis? Which other Muslim nation would you ask to be your partner?

None of them, I hope. You see, if you stand for human rights at all, you must oppose these countries' practices - not embrace them with partnerships.

pariswat

Tss Ker, now some will say that we're anti US because we eat more couscous than hamburgers.

My preferred couscous (in that order) in Paris :
Marrackech Rue Amaillé 8e
Omar (chez) rue de Bretagne, 47 4e
Petit bleu rue Muller 18e

Petit bleu has good couscous but the owner is quite strange. Not rude, but gruff.

sandralist

The biggest suppliers of arms to the Saudis are the US and France.

I'm sick of this bigotry against Muslims. If Fodor's editors were doing their jobs, they'd take it down, like they would were similar screeds against Jews to appear on the forums. Only consolation (and it is considerable) is that obviously most people reading it see it for the bigoted, closed-loop thinking that it is.

Anyway, for people who can deal with complexity, rather than hysterical finger-pointing at "THEM", this article is really rich in the complexities of the situation with ISIS in Europe and the global response to the Paris attacks:

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v37/n23/adam-sh...q_v=c900b2f699

PalenQ

fuzz - several Saudi students have lived in my home for a few years recently - I was only attempting to separate the Saudis from their govbernment - like the world should not blame me an American for the rather many illegal wars and even atrocities my government has committed. These Saudis I know deplore their government's endorsement of severe Sharia law =- they said in their town on Saturday mornings at the local shopping mall public beheadings took place and all were supposed to watch - even small kids who they said often burst into tears at the sight of the head being severed.

Saudi Arabia is at the root of the problem - rich Saudis funding ISIS and ilk in spite of their government's official stances (it's all a Sunni vs Shiite thing for them) and the Sunni Saudis absolutely hate Saudi Shiites - calling them scum of the earth, etc.

Anyway you missed my point about lumping all Muslims together as bad apples we should avoid - a few rotten apples indeed do ruins the barrel for you.

Countries we could work with include Morocco - instrumental in getting to the identities of the Paris terrorists - Algeria, Tunisia and Jordan. And before we wrecked their states and governmental/police structures Libya, Syria and Iraq. I think the UAE also could be a partner along with Kuwait.

All Muslim nations should be against the barbarity ISIS is doing to innocent people as the Qu'aran no doubt don't sanction that.

Genocide is being carried out by ISIS and my original point way us was it is no difference than Nazis or Turks with Armenians, etc - should be fought by every civilized country. You want to turn a blind eye - well the precedents for doing that are not good.

Fussgaenger

"I'm sick of this bigotry against Muslims. If Fodor's editors were doing their jobs, they'd take it down..."

Obviously, I read the Todenhöfer article that you posted, sandralist. Is it bigotry to disagree with him?

It's neither "bigotry" nor "hysterical finger-pointing" at all to refer accurately to codified laws of Sharia jurisprudence in Saudi Arabia or other Muslim countries - nor to read and pass on scientific polls of Muslim opinion; when Pew Research reports that 75% of Egyptians support Sharia (and courtroom practices in Egypt of weighing a woman's word at 50% of a man's word, for example,) that's just paying good attention to what governments and Muslims themselves believe. These cultures are radically different from ours. You can't blame the messenger for ugly but true realities in the message.

Todenhöfer is welcome to treat such societies as "partners" if he wishes. Will you "partner" with the Palestinians? Pew reports that 84% of them support stoning in cases of adultery.
http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/t...andiner_201309

IMO we refuse to treat such people as we would our friends. That obviously includes the Saudis. That's not bigotry either - it's just being realistic and having a moral backbone.

otherchelebi

Anyone who uses religion, any religion, as the reason and justification for his treatment of any other person or persons is a potential terrorist. The same argument applies to ethnicity, color, gender, age and size.

Those who treat others on the basis of their hierachic position, profession, vocation, hobby, culture, language, pronounciation, knowledge, intelligence, nationality, is a boor.
(I may have put myself in this category by this statement but I could not find a better way of saying it.)

pariswat

Totally true.
One exception : Belgians. We are the best people in the world and should be the world's leaders.

The only reason we do not exercise what should be by birth our right is that among all our extraordinary qualities, we have been given by God himself the modesty as our prime quality.

I'll again join Sandra saying that there are fortunately very few racists on this forum, but those who are don't get that they should shut up.

Unfortunately FODORS mods don't do their job on this specific thread.

sandralist

Speaking of "moral backbone", this is a wonderful cartoon, and the article that accompanies it is spot-on about why, if you are advocating a military response, you need something more than a "moral backbone". You need an army willing to fight, and a military strategy that defines what victory means:

http://new.spectator.co.uk/2015/11/s...t-help-anyone/

Fussgaenger

"Anyone who uses religion, any religion, as the reason and justification for his treatment of any other person or persons is a potential terrorist. The same argument applies to ethnicity, color, gender, age and size."

If so, then a government that promotes race or gender preferences (affirmative action) or that allows senior discounts is terrorist?

Your statement at least shows some fondness for human rights and equal rights, which is what this is all about.

Sadly, Muslims in the Middle East would generally qualify as terrorists under your definition. According to Pew, only 1/3 of them think government should permit women to initiate divorce. Only 1/4 think women should have inheritance rights equal to those of men. http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/t...iety-overview/

More sadly, Middle East governments tend to implement the misogynous, religion-based beliefs of their citizens.
In Egypt, it's a crime for a wife to commit adultery irrespective of where it happens. A husband has to get caught in the marital bed with his lover - anywhere else, and he's off the hook. A man is also off the hook if he catches his wife and her lover at home and kills them both. But a woman who does the same upon finding her husband and lover in the act faces a murder 1 charge.

I don't think this preferential treatment of men is terrorism, but it's certainly horribly, horribly wrong. And I think it's only right when Amnesty International and nations around the world identify and condemn the Muslim governments that perpetuate such injustices.

PalenQ

Sadly, Muslims in the Middle East would generally qualify as terrorists under your definition>

As would anti-abortionists who whip up zealous folks with the rhetoric about abortion being murder, etc? and then may contribute to other folks to shoot up abortion clinics - terrorists - they're everywhere!

Maybe even the Catholic church's anti-abortion stance contributes to this - thus under fuss' thinking all Catholics are terrorists? and they also treat women as 2nd class citizens - denying them being pope or priests.

Fussgaenger

Pal: "...under fuss' thinking all Catholics are terrorists?"

C'mon now. It was "otherchelebi" who insisted on labeling folks of all sorts "terrorists" - not me. For me terrorists have to meet the dictionary definition.

If the religious - whether Catholics or Muslims - began advocating the bombing of abortion clinics, then yes, they'd be instigating terrorism. It's not terrorism to call all abortions immoral or inhumane and to call for their abolition - that's misogynist.