Paris Questions
Mar 17th, 2006, 01:56 PM
#21
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robes, your views are really tired <b>[Which one(s), specifically?]</b> and a product of the american culture wars. why do you need to characterise people as either pro or anti-france? <b>[Where did THAT come from? I never said anything like that.]</b> i understand that a lot of americans are anti-france for stupid reasons but that shouldn't stop the rest of us from discussing the issue that bill raised with reason rather than emotional knee-jerk. <b>[I speak respectfully to visiting Americans, too.]</b>
i do not promote going somewhere with no knowledge of the place nor do i wish to be treated like a king when i travel somewhere. Bill, i don't think you did your argument any good with your last post. however, ness is right, regular tourists shouldn't need to take 3 years of "how to travel in france" lessons before they can go there without being made to feel like they are doing something wrong at every turn.
robes, i don't understand your last post <b>[I know.]</b>...we both agree that you need to learn the "ropes" before you go there but why should you have to? <b>[If we agree, what's your question?]</b> it's nice if you do but why should being treated with respect require this. <b>[I didn't mean to imply I thought it <i>should</i>. I said it <i>does</i>.]</b> in asia, being treated well is unconditional. <b>[I commuted to Taipei for several years, and I don't agree with you. Asia is a big place.]</b>
most europeans don't bother to do this when traveling to france. <b>[I haven't interviewed most Europeans, so I can't speak with your authority on the subject.]</b> do you really think danes fret about making sure they greet the shopkeeper in every shop they enter when in paris? <b>[Yes.]</b> or that germans spend hours on message boards trying to learn how not to "screw up" in france. <b>[Well, they're <u>Germans</u>, ferchrissake.]</b> they just go there to visit and have fun and get treated not very well...and this is why france has this reputation around europe as well....nothing to do with the war stance or freedom fries. <b>[This is the first time anyone has mentioned either of those things.]</b>
it's ok robes, we all know you are a good soldier against all the "ignorant" views about france in your country but you can put that aside here. <b>[I didn't raise this issue. The OP did.]</b>
i do not promote going somewhere with no knowledge of the place nor do i wish to be treated like a king when i travel somewhere. Bill, i don't think you did your argument any good with your last post. however, ness is right, regular tourists shouldn't need to take 3 years of "how to travel in france" lessons before they can go there without being made to feel like they are doing something wrong at every turn.
robes, i don't understand your last post <b>[I know.]</b>...we both agree that you need to learn the "ropes" before you go there but why should you have to? <b>[If we agree, what's your question?]</b> it's nice if you do but why should being treated with respect require this. <b>[I didn't mean to imply I thought it <i>should</i>. I said it <i>does</i>.]</b> in asia, being treated well is unconditional. <b>[I commuted to Taipei for several years, and I don't agree with you. Asia is a big place.]</b>
most europeans don't bother to do this when traveling to france. <b>[I haven't interviewed most Europeans, so I can't speak with your authority on the subject.]</b> do you really think danes fret about making sure they greet the shopkeeper in every shop they enter when in paris? <b>[Yes.]</b> or that germans spend hours on message boards trying to learn how not to "screw up" in france. <b>[Well, they're <u>Germans</u>, ferchrissake.]</b> they just go there to visit and have fun and get treated not very well...and this is why france has this reputation around europe as well....nothing to do with the war stance or freedom fries. <b>[This is the first time anyone has mentioned either of those things.]</b>
it's ok robes, we all know you are a good soldier against all the "ignorant" views about france in your country but you can put that aside here. <b>[I didn't raise this issue. The OP did.]</b>
Mar 17th, 2006, 02:13 PM
#22
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robespierre,
You seem to keep missing the point that even foreigners who possess a lot of knowledge of France (and French) experience negative responses from some French people that take one aback. And it's not political.
It is a difference in attitude about how to treat strangers in your country. Were I to call my friends and ask if it was OK to bring people from another to country to dinner at their house, I wouldn't be at all surprised to have my friends ask me to please tell them if there was anything they should or shouldn't do that would help these people at ease. Up the point of people immigrating here (and that's another story), we don't expect French people to stop being French when they come here, or to drop their habits and preferences, and if I said, "I'm afraid my French friends don't speak English very well, and they're probably not prepared for how aggressive some New Yorkers can be," my American friends wouldn't begin to lecture them or me about how they don't deserve to be treated well if they can't be bothered to bone up on American culture!
I travel to lots of different countries, and I always make a point of begging people's pardon if I need to talk to them or ask their help, or even if I wish to purchase something. (I even to do that in America.) Only in France have I learned to brace myself for grudging cooperation and comments on the way I talk (even after I've apologized for my basic French). How many times does it happen? Not 9 out 10. But not one out of 1,000 either. In most of the rest of the Western world, the batting average is better.
When I see foreign tourists in NYC, I always think: "How do they do it?" So I'm not saying the French are inferior. I'm saying they're just as bad as we are.
You seem to keep missing the point that even foreigners who possess a lot of knowledge of France (and French) experience negative responses from some French people that take one aback. And it's not political.
It is a difference in attitude about how to treat strangers in your country. Were I to call my friends and ask if it was OK to bring people from another to country to dinner at their house, I wouldn't be at all surprised to have my friends ask me to please tell them if there was anything they should or shouldn't do that would help these people at ease. Up the point of people immigrating here (and that's another story), we don't expect French people to stop being French when they come here, or to drop their habits and preferences, and if I said, "I'm afraid my French friends don't speak English very well, and they're probably not prepared for how aggressive some New Yorkers can be," my American friends wouldn't begin to lecture them or me about how they don't deserve to be treated well if they can't be bothered to bone up on American culture!
I travel to lots of different countries, and I always make a point of begging people's pardon if I need to talk to them or ask their help, or even if I wish to purchase something. (I even to do that in America.) Only in France have I learned to brace myself for grudging cooperation and comments on the way I talk (even after I've apologized for my basic French). How many times does it happen? Not 9 out 10. But not one out of 1,000 either. In most of the rest of the Western world, the batting average is better.
When I see foreign tourists in NYC, I always think: "How do they do it?" So I'm not saying the French are inferior. I'm saying they're just as bad as we are.
Mar 17th, 2006, 02:18 PM
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As I said in the Arago thread, Paris is the center of the universe, and I could add here that French society defines the world standard for civilized behavior.
Naturally, I don't accept either of these propositions as factual, but I <u>am</u> willing to accommodate <i>their</i> belief that they are, just as I don't contradict the view of some Brits that their monarchs are different in any significant way from everyone else.
Something about "When in Rome..."?
Naturally, I don't accept either of these propositions as factual, but I <u>am</u> willing to accommodate <i>their</i> belief that they are, just as I don't contradict the view of some Brits that their monarchs are different in any significant way from everyone else.
Something about "When in Rome..."?
Mar 17th, 2006, 02:32 PM
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Sure.
But thinking you're the center of the universe counts as an attitude. I don't think anybody here has recommended arguing the French out of their beliefs.
I've tended to think for many years that one of the reasons the French and Americans bicker so much is that they are so much alike. We, too, think we set the standard for civilizeation (democracy, capitalism, personal freedom, pop culture).
Kind of funny when we run into people who think it's actually them.
But thinking you're the center of the universe counts as an attitude. I don't think anybody here has recommended arguing the French out of their beliefs.
I've tended to think for many years that one of the reasons the French and Americans bicker so much is that they are so much alike. We, too, think we set the standard for civilizeation (democracy, capitalism, personal freedom, pop culture).
Kind of funny when we run into people who think it's actually them.
Mar 17th, 2006, 02:53 PM
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1. Haggling over prices is not practiced in France, as a general rule.
2. The Métro doesn't have any particular smell overall, although some lines and stations have various mechanical smells (grease, electrical equipment, hot brakes during rush hour).
3. The French don't have an "attitude." The only hostility I've ever seen in France was hostility displayed by Americans.
2. The Métro doesn't have any particular smell overall, although some lines and stations have various mechanical smells (grease, electrical equipment, hot brakes during rush hour).
3. The French don't have an "attitude." The only hostility I've ever seen in France was hostility displayed by Americans.
Mar 17th, 2006, 03:16 PM
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Bill T,
If you know little about the culture, language, and history of the countries you've visited in Asia and yet you're treated like "a king," trust me, not everyone in Asia is treated with such regard. Your ideal vacation scenario sounds like a Madame Butterfly opera -- the orient bowing down at your big Western feet. (no doubt, wearing shoes that you've forgotten to take off and are stomping around in peoples' homes...)
If you know little about the culture, language, and history of the countries you've visited in Asia and yet you're treated like "a king," trust me, not everyone in Asia is treated with such regard. Your ideal vacation scenario sounds like a Madame Butterfly opera -- the orient bowing down at your big Western feet. (no doubt, wearing shoes that you've forgotten to take off and are stomping around in peoples' homes...)
Mar 17th, 2006, 04:21 PM
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fishee,
I don't take BillT's remarks as literal. But the graciousness of Japan to visitors, for instance, is outstanding, and I don't mean at 5 star hotels.
Americans often treat guests better than they do their own families, so there is nothing new there. I think it's silly to deny different cultures have differing attitudes toward tourists and foreigners. And I think it's especially silly to try to make up insults to hurl at people who talk about the differences for the benefit of people planning to go to those countries.
I don't take BillT's remarks as literal. But the graciousness of Japan to visitors, for instance, is outstanding, and I don't mean at 5 star hotels.
Americans often treat guests better than they do their own families, so there is nothing new there. I think it's silly to deny different cultures have differing attitudes toward tourists and foreigners. And I think it's especially silly to try to make up insults to hurl at people who talk about the differences for the benefit of people planning to go to those countries.
Mar 17th, 2006, 04:27 PM
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"And I think it's especially silly to try to make up insults to hurl at people who talk about the differences for the benefit of people planning to go to those countries."
I don't know who is hurling insults here. People who say there are ignorant Americans? Or people who call others' comments "silly?"
I don't know who is hurling insults here. People who say there are ignorant Americans? Or people who call others' comments "silly?"
Mar 17th, 2006, 05:27 PM
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"I just love Asia because I do not have to learn the rules and people salute me, bow to me, open doors for me(that won't happen in Europe) and basically treat you like a king and isn't that part of what we are looking for in our vacations?"
If you want to be an apologist for these kinds of remarks, knock yourself out. Many people of Asian descent, myself included, find this kind of attitude to be insulting. But I guess that makes us French...
If you want to be an apologist for these kinds of remarks, knock yourself out. Many people of Asian descent, myself included, find this kind of attitude to be insulting. But I guess that makes us French...
Mar 20th, 2006, 06:21 AM
#30
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I will just add that there are no such discussions about "attitude" when visiting Germany, Austria, Switzerland,.... so I think there is some truth about the French "attitude".
BYW the French do not set the standards for civilization
BYW the French do not set the standards for civilization
Mar 20th, 2006, 07:15 AM
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Have you ever been to New York? Taipei? I don't think Parisians are any more aloof than big-city dwellers anywhere else.
Did you get out into the provinces at all?
What is the population where you live?
Did you get out into the provinces at all?
What is the population where you live?
Mar 20th, 2006, 07:18 AM
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We are from Memphis- home of Elvis, B.B. King, Beale Street and the Blues. People here are very friendly and will go out of their way to help.
Been to NYC many times and love it! People there have always been very nice. One of our favorite places to visit in the US, along with San Francisco.
Paris just was not my cup of tea.
Been to NYC many times and love it! People there have always been very nice. One of our favorite places to visit in the US, along with San Francisco.
Paris just was not my cup of tea.
Mar 20th, 2006, 07:28 AM
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ru - Guy18 gave you 10 excellent suggestions for your trip when you asked on a previous post. How many of them did you do?
1. Have lunch at Laduree tea room on the Rue Royale.
2. Have lunch at Angelina's, facing the Tuileries Gardens.
2. Have dinner at Paris Dakar, a wonderful Senegalese restaurant north of the Pompidou Center (take a Taxi).
3. Go to the Musee Jacquemart Andre to see a real 19th century Parisian townhouse (your daughter will love the giftshop).
4. Go to the Musee D'Orsay for a wonderful collection of French impressionism.
5. Go to the Louvre--but choose in advance what gallery or two you want to see and call it a day. You will exhaust yourself trying to see everything, and 3 days wouldn't be enough time anyway. Wonderful shops are in the "lower regions."
6. If antiques interest you (as they do me), browse the Clignancourt antiques market(watch your purse), or, better yet, if you're there on a weekend, do the Port de Vanves antiques market. It's smaller and more manageable.
7. Stroll the Luxembourg Gardens and wander over to the St. Sulpice church.
8. Stroll the Tuileries Gardens (perhaps between the Louvre and Angelinas!)
9. See Notre Dame and then stroll on the Isle St. Louis with your ice cream cone from Berthillon (like nothing you've ever tasted!)
10. Find a place on the Rue Mouffetard for an authentic, inexpensive Parisian meal. (There's a great place for quiche, but can't remember the name. I'll bet you can find it.)
1. Have lunch at Laduree tea room on the Rue Royale.
2. Have lunch at Angelina's, facing the Tuileries Gardens.
2. Have dinner at Paris Dakar, a wonderful Senegalese restaurant north of the Pompidou Center (take a Taxi).
3. Go to the Musee Jacquemart Andre to see a real 19th century Parisian townhouse (your daughter will love the giftshop).
4. Go to the Musee D'Orsay for a wonderful collection of French impressionism.
5. Go to the Louvre--but choose in advance what gallery or two you want to see and call it a day. You will exhaust yourself trying to see everything, and 3 days wouldn't be enough time anyway. Wonderful shops are in the "lower regions."
6. If antiques interest you (as they do me), browse the Clignancourt antiques market(watch your purse), or, better yet, if you're there on a weekend, do the Port de Vanves antiques market. It's smaller and more manageable.
7. Stroll the Luxembourg Gardens and wander over to the St. Sulpice church.
8. Stroll the Tuileries Gardens (perhaps between the Louvre and Angelinas!)
9. See Notre Dame and then stroll on the Isle St. Louis with your ice cream cone from Berthillon (like nothing you've ever tasted!)
10. Find a place on the Rue Mouffetard for an authentic, inexpensive Parisian meal. (There's a great place for quiche, but can't remember the name. I'll bet you can find it.)
Mar 20th, 2006, 07:47 AM
#35
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Note- in the US people in the South tend to be more hospitable than in the Northeast or in California. I have lived on both coasts and now in Texas and so I can attest that there is a big difference is hospitality.
