On the road in Lyon, Ecole des Trois Ponts, and Provence
Jul 25th, 2005, 07:22 PM
#41
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Welcome back (belatedly)!
I'd like to hear more about Autoroute. From the Microsoft site, it appears that it only covers the UK. What maps were you using in on your Lyon-Provence expedition?
Here's my PDA thread:
http://www.fodors.com/forums/threads...p;tid=34474486
I'd like to hear more about Autoroute. From the Microsoft site, it appears that it only covers the UK. What maps were you using in on your Lyon-Provence expedition?
Here's my PDA thread:
http://www.fodors.com/forums/threads...p;tid=34474486
Jul 26th, 2005, 04:36 AM
#42
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Robespierre, it appears that the full version of MicroSoft AutoRoute can't be bought in the US, or at least it couldn't be back in the late Fall of 2003. I can only guess that this is for legal reasons involving the map data (although the map data are now freely available at http://www.mappy.com).
So on my trip to Spain a couple of years ago, I bought a copy in a department store. I think it was around $60 (perhaps I can look it up later). It covers all of western Europe. You can select any rectangle out of the maps it generates, and upload them to your Pocket PC, to Pocket Streets and Trips. I brought it back home and loaded it up on my PC, and then on a subsequent trip to France, carried maps of the areas we'd be visiting.
The only problem is that, having been bought in Spain, the program is in Spanish. This is not a big deal for the menus, but also affects the names of places, and I don't always know the Spanish spelling offhand. But this hasn't turned out to be a big issue.
I've got to go out now for the day - I'll post again later on this and some other issues (for example, the PDA dictionaries I use, and love, are no longer available in the US).
- Larry
So on my trip to Spain a couple of years ago, I bought a copy in a department store. I think it was around $60 (perhaps I can look it up later). It covers all of western Europe. You can select any rectangle out of the maps it generates, and upload them to your Pocket PC, to Pocket Streets and Trips. I brought it back home and loaded it up on my PC, and then on a subsequent trip to France, carried maps of the areas we'd be visiting.
The only problem is that, having been bought in Spain, the program is in Spanish. This is not a big deal for the menus, but also affects the names of places, and I don't always know the Spanish spelling offhand. But this hasn't turned out to be a big issue.
I've got to go out now for the day - I'll post again later on this and some other issues (for example, the PDA dictionaries I use, and love, are no longer available in the US).
- Larry
Jul 26th, 2005, 11:24 AM
#43
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A quick web search seems to show the same situation as the last time I looked two years ago: Microsoft's "AutoRoute" mapping software of Europe and the UK is only available in Europe and the UK, and the vendors there won't ship it to the US. I can find no reference on any Microsoft site as to if this is truly the case, or as to <i>why</i> this is the case.
TomTom (http://www.tomtom.com) sells GPS devices and mapping software for Europe at a much higher price (AutoRoute 2005 can now be bought from Amazon UK for only 39 pounds). I originally bought my Collins translation dictionaries from TomTom, back in November, 2003, for $35 each. TomTom no longer carries them, and as far as I can tell they, like the AutoRoute software, are no longer available in the US.
The Collins dictionaries were at the time available for English-French, English-Spanish, English-Italian, and English-German. I thought that was great, because these are exactly the foreign languages I speak (not surprising, since these are probably the most common foreign languages learned by English speakers).
I bought the first three, but hesitated on the German, because my German goes back to a Conversational German course in graduate school, in the late sixties, and I haven't kept it up. At one time, I was able to do a creditable job in a political discussion in East Germany, having crossed the Berlin Wall at Checkpoint Charlie. But over the years since then, my German has deteriorated drastically due to non-use (use it or lose it).
But in the end, I purchased the German dictionary as well. Now, finding it no longer available, I'm very happy I did. We'll be traveling to northern Italy soon, to areas that are full of German tourists. We'll also be visiting the Dolomites, including the South Tyrol region of Italy, where in fact German is more apt to be the native language than Italian. I'll be happy to have it.
One beauty of the PDA-based dictionaries is that I've always got all four of them with me. In the bad old days of <i>paper</i> dictionaries, I'd carry only one - in France, the French one, in Spain, the Spanish one, etc. But now I've always got all four. Thus, if, as happened on a past trip to Italy, I share a dinner table with a couple of German tourists, I've got the German dictionary with me as well, even though I set out in the morning not expecting to speak German that day.
Robespierre, the main problem with creating the device you speak of is the massive amount of "content" needed. For a previous trip to Spain, I purchased a "Lonely Planet" interactive map of Madrid for my PDA. This was a great map - infinitely zoomable and scrollable, and it calculated routes, like MapQuest. What was disappointing was its content on attractions, restaurants, and hotels - only a dozen or so of each. And it was only available for a few major cities, so I had it in Madrid, but not in Seville or Granada.
I can't find it now in a web search, but there seems to be a similar product offered by Rough Guides.
It seems that although you'll find a few enthusiastic potential purchasers like me, the market for these devices must be small. At least, that's my guess looking at the paucity of products being marketed in the US. Any bookstore will show that there's a market for guidebooks, but you then have to intersect that population with those who carry PDAs, and those who are interested in using them for more in-depth knowledge while traveling, and the market gets much smaller ("nobody here but us techno-nerds"
.
Perhaps, as your informal and unscientific survey of Fodorites (on another thread) seems to indicate, it's not a big enough market to justify the massive effort of generating the content. If you can't find a willing market for this product among Fodorites, I'm not sure where you <i>will</i> find it.
On the other hand, it will come eventually, I imagine. At one point, anyone carrying a cell phone was considered a techno-nerd. My younger daughter was intensely embarrased every time my wife was seen talking on one - she thought pulling out a cell phone in public was pretentious beyond belief. Now that same daughter uses a cell phone as her primary phone, and carries it everywhere. Some day, people may look back and wonder why anyone would have ever wanted to carry a heavy and hard to use paper guidebook. But you may be ahead of your time.
- Larry
TomTom (http://www.tomtom.com) sells GPS devices and mapping software for Europe at a much higher price (AutoRoute 2005 can now be bought from Amazon UK for only 39 pounds). I originally bought my Collins translation dictionaries from TomTom, back in November, 2003, for $35 each. TomTom no longer carries them, and as far as I can tell they, like the AutoRoute software, are no longer available in the US.
The Collins dictionaries were at the time available for English-French, English-Spanish, English-Italian, and English-German. I thought that was great, because these are exactly the foreign languages I speak (not surprising, since these are probably the most common foreign languages learned by English speakers).
I bought the first three, but hesitated on the German, because my German goes back to a Conversational German course in graduate school, in the late sixties, and I haven't kept it up. At one time, I was able to do a creditable job in a political discussion in East Germany, having crossed the Berlin Wall at Checkpoint Charlie. But over the years since then, my German has deteriorated drastically due to non-use (use it or lose it).
But in the end, I purchased the German dictionary as well. Now, finding it no longer available, I'm very happy I did. We'll be traveling to northern Italy soon, to areas that are full of German tourists. We'll also be visiting the Dolomites, including the South Tyrol region of Italy, where in fact German is more apt to be the native language than Italian. I'll be happy to have it.
One beauty of the PDA-based dictionaries is that I've always got all four of them with me. In the bad old days of <i>paper</i> dictionaries, I'd carry only one - in France, the French one, in Spain, the Spanish one, etc. But now I've always got all four. Thus, if, as happened on a past trip to Italy, I share a dinner table with a couple of German tourists, I've got the German dictionary with me as well, even though I set out in the morning not expecting to speak German that day.
Robespierre, the main problem with creating the device you speak of is the massive amount of "content" needed. For a previous trip to Spain, I purchased a "Lonely Planet" interactive map of Madrid for my PDA. This was a great map - infinitely zoomable and scrollable, and it calculated routes, like MapQuest. What was disappointing was its content on attractions, restaurants, and hotels - only a dozen or so of each. And it was only available for a few major cities, so I had it in Madrid, but not in Seville or Granada.
I can't find it now in a web search, but there seems to be a similar product offered by Rough Guides.
It seems that although you'll find a few enthusiastic potential purchasers like me, the market for these devices must be small. At least, that's my guess looking at the paucity of products being marketed in the US. Any bookstore will show that there's a market for guidebooks, but you then have to intersect that population with those who carry PDAs, and those who are interested in using them for more in-depth knowledge while traveling, and the market gets much smaller ("nobody here but us techno-nerds"
.Perhaps, as your informal and unscientific survey of Fodorites (on another thread) seems to indicate, it's not a big enough market to justify the massive effort of generating the content. If you can't find a willing market for this product among Fodorites, I'm not sure where you <i>will</i> find it.
On the other hand, it will come eventually, I imagine. At one point, anyone carrying a cell phone was considered a techno-nerd. My younger daughter was intensely embarrased every time my wife was seen talking on one - she thought pulling out a cell phone in public was pretentious beyond belief. Now that same daughter uses a cell phone as her primary phone, and carries it everywhere. Some day, people may look back and wonder why anyone would have ever wanted to carry a heavy and hard to use paper guidebook. But you may be ahead of your time.
- Larry
Jul 28th, 2005, 02:16 PM
#44
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This thread popping up to the top inspired me to post some of my photos of the Ecole des Trois Ponts, plus Lyon and some of our side trips near Roanne.
http://www.kodakgallery.com/I.jsp?c=...0&y=7kg5zj
If you want to get in to see these without having to register and sign in, just click on the link at the bottom-right, "View photos without signing in".
Enjoy!
- Larry
http://www.kodakgallery.com/I.jsp?c=...0&y=7kg5zj
If you want to get in to see these without having to register and sign in, just click on the link at the bottom-right, "View photos without signing in".
Enjoy!
- Larry
Jul 31st, 2005, 06:45 PM
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I'm thinking ahead to when I may retire and take another French course, so this thread caught my eye tonight. I'm wondering, Larry, how you decided upon Ecole des Trois Ponts? I took a 2 week course in Tours (at Centre Linguistique pour Etrangers--CLE) several years ago, and whereas it was excellent, I'd like to try a different place next time. I saw some info about Coeur de France (in Sancerre) recently and then came across this thread. I enjoyed reading your report and seeing your lovely pictures.(I've also stayed at Hotel des Artistes-several yrs.ago-and liked it!) Ecole des Trois Ponts sounds like a very good place to study and in a great location, in the bigger picture.
Did you find that one week was sufficient? I felt that with my 2 week stay in Tours that I was just beginning to settle in the routine, and then it was over. You didn't say much about homework; we had quite a bit at CLE. I'd be interested in hearing any additional info you may have about your experience, if you have time. Merci!
Did you find that one week was sufficient? I felt that with my 2 week stay in Tours that I was just beginning to settle in the routine, and then it was over. You didn't say much about homework; we had quite a bit at CLE. I'd be interested in hearing any additional info you may have about your experience, if you have time. Merci!
Aug 1st, 2005, 07:11 AM
#46
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Hi, Grandmere,
For some more detail on our stay at 3 Ponts, you may or may not have already seen the continuation of this thread, which I posted back in October, 2004. It's entitled, "Trip Report, France: Lyon, Roanne, Ecole des Trois Ponts, Provence (Luberon & Vaucluse)". You can find it at:
http://www.fodors.com/forums/pgMessa...p;tid=34533499
It's mentioned earlier in THIS thread, but there's a lot here to read, and you may have missed it (or not).
We found the <i>Ecole des Trois Ponts</i> on the internet at first, and then saw an article about it in the NY Times, and did some further research. What attracted us to it was that you lived at the school, and spent all your meals with the same group of students. At most other language schools, you have to arrange separate accomodations (although the school will generally help you find them), and they are separate from the school.
We enjoyed being together with the same group for a week. Our afternoons were free, so we made various side trips. On some, we were accompanied by another member of the group, who we had just met. Some people at the school had cars with them for the week, as we did, but others did not. Some borrowed bicycles from the school, and used them to get around.
As to whether one week is "sufficient": obviously, the more time you put in, the more you get out of it. It sounds as if your program at CLE was more rigorous than ours. We had homework, but it didn't take a lot of time each evening. The sum total of our classes during the week was 19 hours, and we had afternoons free.
My French was pretty good going in, and my level at the end of the course was rated "Professional +". I could take 1, 2, 3, or more weeks, and continue to improve, more or less in proportion to the time I spend.
Margie, on the other hand, is at an intermediate level. Although she made major advances for one week, I suspect two weeks would have more than doubled her progress, and three weeks would have more than tripled her progress. From my own experience when I was first learning French, lengthy immersions really build on themselves, and it starts to feel more natural and less forced.
Another thing that could have helped Margie would have been true total immersion - that is, not using any English at all during the week. We did not do that - the students all spoke only French at the school (during meals and other times), but Margie and I spoke English to each other during the afternoons. Margie was not quite ready for a total immersion experience - she needs to be able to express herself, and staying totally in French was just too exhausting. I'm quite capable of going a week without expressing any deep feelings or complex thoughts if I had to; I don't think Margie can do that.
Let us know how your plans work out.
- Larry
For some more detail on our stay at 3 Ponts, you may or may not have already seen the continuation of this thread, which I posted back in October, 2004. It's entitled, "Trip Report, France: Lyon, Roanne, Ecole des Trois Ponts, Provence (Luberon & Vaucluse)". You can find it at:
http://www.fodors.com/forums/pgMessa...p;tid=34533499
It's mentioned earlier in THIS thread, but there's a lot here to read, and you may have missed it (or not).
We found the <i>Ecole des Trois Ponts</i> on the internet at first, and then saw an article about it in the NY Times, and did some further research. What attracted us to it was that you lived at the school, and spent all your meals with the same group of students. At most other language schools, you have to arrange separate accomodations (although the school will generally help you find them), and they are separate from the school.
We enjoyed being together with the same group for a week. Our afternoons were free, so we made various side trips. On some, we were accompanied by another member of the group, who we had just met. Some people at the school had cars with them for the week, as we did, but others did not. Some borrowed bicycles from the school, and used them to get around.
As to whether one week is "sufficient": obviously, the more time you put in, the more you get out of it. It sounds as if your program at CLE was more rigorous than ours. We had homework, but it didn't take a lot of time each evening. The sum total of our classes during the week was 19 hours, and we had afternoons free.
My French was pretty good going in, and my level at the end of the course was rated "Professional +". I could take 1, 2, 3, or more weeks, and continue to improve, more or less in proportion to the time I spend.
Margie, on the other hand, is at an intermediate level. Although she made major advances for one week, I suspect two weeks would have more than doubled her progress, and three weeks would have more than tripled her progress. From my own experience when I was first learning French, lengthy immersions really build on themselves, and it starts to feel more natural and less forced.
Another thing that could have helped Margie would have been true total immersion - that is, not using any English at all during the week. We did not do that - the students all spoke only French at the school (during meals and other times), but Margie and I spoke English to each other during the afternoons. Margie was not quite ready for a total immersion experience - she needs to be able to express herself, and staying totally in French was just too exhausting. I'm quite capable of going a week without expressing any deep feelings or complex thoughts if I had to; I don't think Margie can do that.
Let us know how your plans work out.
- Larry
Aug 1st, 2005, 08:24 AM
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Thank you for getting back so soon; I was afraid that you might miss the post. It really sounds like a good place. My "sejour" would be over a year away, but it's always fun to plan ahead!
My experience at CLE was total immersion; I lived with a family for the two weeks,and the two other students who stayed there were non-English speaking, so French it was!
I was in the 6th level of 7 classes, and it was my grammar that got me there; I felt that my oral-aural skills (b/c of the way I was taught French years ago)were not up to par with the others in the class, but of course, I improved over the two weeks. But that was in 1994! Anytime I take a little test or quiz on line, I am rated Advanced Intermediate or Intermediate II, or whatever they call it, and that feels just about right.
Thanks so much for the info; lots to think about!
I did read your other post, and it was very interesting. I've been to many of the places you mentioned in Provence. I don't know how I missed your post the first time around!
My experience at CLE was total immersion; I lived with a family for the two weeks,and the two other students who stayed there were non-English speaking, so French it was!
I was in the 6th level of 7 classes, and it was my grammar that got me there; I felt that my oral-aural skills (b/c of the way I was taught French years ago)were not up to par with the others in the class, but of course, I improved over the two weeks. But that was in 1994! Anytime I take a little test or quiz on line, I am rated Advanced Intermediate or Intermediate II, or whatever they call it, and that feels just about right.
Thanks so much for the info; lots to think about!
I did read your other post, and it was very interesting. I've been to many of the places you mentioned in Provence. I don't know how I missed your post the first time around!
Aug 1st, 2005, 09:07 AM
#48
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Grandmere, it sounds as if your French is pretty advanced, but you suffered from the basically reading/writing emphasis in the French classes of our youth. I actually was lucky to have a teacher with a more conversational outlook in my first French course, way back in High School in the mid fifties.
In French, it is particularly hard to decipher a spoken stream - it's hard to separate the words. This is because of the lack of a tonic stress (individual words don't have a stressed syllable), the non-pronunciation of most final consonants, and the liaison.
You might tune up your French before your next trip by subscribing to Champs-Elysées:
http://www.champs-elysees.com/
or Fluent French Audio:
http://store.yahoo.com/fluent-french-audio/index.html
- Larry
In French, it is particularly hard to decipher a spoken stream - it's hard to separate the words. This is because of the lack of a tonic stress (individual words don't have a stressed syllable), the non-pronunciation of most final consonants, and the liaison.
You might tune up your French before your next trip by subscribing to Champs-Elysées:
http://www.champs-elysees.com/
or Fluent French Audio:
http://store.yahoo.com/fluent-french-audio/index.html
- Larry
Aug 1st, 2005, 09:20 AM
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Yep, we're of same vintage! 
But weren't you lucky to have a teacher who was forward thinking enough to stress conversation!
And your explanation does make sense as to why I have more-trouble-than-I-think-I-should understanding French!
But weren't you lucky to have a teacher who was forward thinking enough to stress conversation!
And your explanation does make sense as to why I have more-trouble-than-I-think-I-should understanding French!
Jul 18th, 2006, 11:03 AM
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Since I've been directing some people to this old 2004 trip report lately, let me add to it a link to a version of the report on my web page. That has the advantage of having photographs:
http://lkrakauer.home.comcast.net/france04/
- Larry
http://lkrakauer.home.comcast.net/france04/
- Larry
Jan 27th, 2009, 01:44 PM
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