My experience with the French Heath Care System
Nov 18th, 2009, 01:02 AM
#41
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 538
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Viva SOS Medicine! I have used them twice and they are fantastic. Paying French taxes, I didn't pay for this wonderful service.
Also now dabbling in homepathic medicine and can't belive the quality here and also how in-expensive as well!!
I LOVE the French universal health care.
Also now dabbling in homepathic medicine and can't belive the quality here and also how in-expensive as well!!
I LOVE the French universal health care.
Nov 18th, 2009, 05:52 AM
#43
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,699
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi Ann,
>...education for all, and health care for all? why is the one provided in the US, and not the other?<
Once upon a time a bunch of radicals, eg Benjamin Franklin, touted the idea of free public education. Later, other leftist conspirators got that noted tyrant and socialist, Abraham Lincoln, to sign the Morill Land Grant Act. This provided land and funds for cilleges "to teach such branches of learning as are related to agriculture and the mechanic arts, .....in order to promote the liberal and practical education of the industrial classes in the several pursuits and professions in life".
From about 1900 onwards, it was accepted policy to provide free education through high school in both practical, eg electrician, and college prep programs. In some states, eg NY, CA, post secondary ed was practically free to those who could pass the admission criteria.
Then came the Reagan revolution. People came to realize that it cost money to provide for other people. This led to a movement based on the idea that those who have should keep, and that those who don't have are a bunch of shiftless, lazy, ne'er do well, sinful critturs what don't deserve help.
During that time, inflation-adjusted State and local funding for public schools has declined. Funding for post-secondary education has gone down more drastically. In 1960, the State paid about 1/2 of the cost of a college education. Today, it is less than one-third.
As a President of a State U once remarked, "We used to be state supported. Then we became state assisted. Now we are state located".
As the idea of state support for education became less popular (to a great extent because the boomers are no longer in school), the desire for state support for the elderly rose (because the boomers are getting older).
We are now faced with a clash of ideologies: Some people want to be taken care of in old age, but don't wish to pay for helping younger people. Some people want to help younger people, but not older people. Some people don't want to share with anyone.
That leaves a rather small group of folks who would like to improve both education and healthcare.
Hope this helps.
>...education for all, and health care for all? why is the one provided in the US, and not the other?<
Once upon a time a bunch of radicals, eg Benjamin Franklin, touted the idea of free public education. Later, other leftist conspirators got that noted tyrant and socialist, Abraham Lincoln, to sign the Morill Land Grant Act. This provided land and funds for cilleges "to teach such branches of learning as are related to agriculture and the mechanic arts, .....in order to promote the liberal and practical education of the industrial classes in the several pursuits and professions in life".
From about 1900 onwards, it was accepted policy to provide free education through high school in both practical, eg electrician, and college prep programs. In some states, eg NY, CA, post secondary ed was practically free to those who could pass the admission criteria.
Then came the Reagan revolution. People came to realize that it cost money to provide for other people. This led to a movement based on the idea that those who have should keep, and that those who don't have are a bunch of shiftless, lazy, ne'er do well, sinful critturs what don't deserve help.
During that time, inflation-adjusted State and local funding for public schools has declined. Funding for post-secondary education has gone down more drastically. In 1960, the State paid about 1/2 of the cost of a college education. Today, it is less than one-third.
As a President of a State U once remarked, "We used to be state supported. Then we became state assisted. Now we are state located".
As the idea of state support for education became less popular (to a great extent because the boomers are no longer in school), the desire for state support for the elderly rose (because the boomers are getting older).
We are now faced with a clash of ideologies: Some people want to be taken care of in old age, but don't wish to pay for helping younger people. Some people want to help younger people, but not older people. Some people don't want to share with anyone.
That leaves a rather small group of folks who would like to improve both education and healthcare.
Hope this helps.
Nov 18th, 2009, 06:52 AM
#44
Here are the university fees in France this year:
<i>Le montant des droits d’inscription est de 171 euros pour les diplômes conduisant au grade de licence (contre 169 en 2008), de 231 euros pour les diplômes conduisant au grade de master (contre 226 en 2008) et de 350 euros pour une inscription en doctorat (contre 342 en 2008). A ces coûts peuvent s’ajouter des droits spécifiques pour chaque université (fixés par le conseil d’administration de l’université).</i>
<i>Le montant des droits d’inscription est de 171 euros pour les diplômes conduisant au grade de licence (contre 169 en 2008), de 231 euros pour les diplômes conduisant au grade de master (contre 226 en 2008) et de 350 euros pour une inscription en doctorat (contre 342 en 2008). A ces coûts peuvent s’ajouter des droits spécifiques pour chaque université (fixés par le conseil d’administration de l’université).</i>
Nov 18th, 2009, 07:20 AM
#46
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,523
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Regarding ira's comments:
Way back in the day I took a class in social and political philosophy. Among our many readings, we read Madison's Federalist papers, some of the thinking of our founding fathers. The gist of it is:
* By nature, everyone pursues their self-interest.
* From a governmental standpoint, no one will be able to completely achieve what is in their self-interest.
* If there are appropriate checks and balances, everyone will have to compromise to maximize their self-interest.
* If everyone pursues their self-interest, we will arrive at some happy medium in which everyone gets some satisfactory if not optimal degree of what's in their self-interest, and as a whole we will achieve the common good.
If you really look at it, this means that being selfish will lead to the common good. Selfish = good. And thus that's the kind of an American people we are - selfish. Reagan merely pushed that pretty close to its extreme, within the bounds of our basic structure.
In case you think that human beings are indelibly selfish by nature, keep in mind that some people - like the Japanese - value the collective at least as much as the individual. I'm not suggesting we should be like the Japanese, but surely some happy medium is possible.
So many of the responses in polls about health care suggest that everyone thinks it would be great if we had health care for everyone, as long as it costs them nothing. Meaning that their concern for the uninsured its basically theoretical in nature. There is no magic pot of money that exists out there that can pay for it - and I'm not speaking about now with the economic crisis. There never is - there is no money tree.
Those who continue to say that there should be health care for all as long as it costs them nothing personally just need to spend a little time without insurance while coping with an ongoing health problem (see my post above). The view sure looks different from there.
Way back in the day I took a class in social and political philosophy. Among our many readings, we read Madison's Federalist papers, some of the thinking of our founding fathers. The gist of it is:
* By nature, everyone pursues their self-interest.
* From a governmental standpoint, no one will be able to completely achieve what is in their self-interest.
* If there are appropriate checks and balances, everyone will have to compromise to maximize their self-interest.
* If everyone pursues their self-interest, we will arrive at some happy medium in which everyone gets some satisfactory if not optimal degree of what's in their self-interest, and as a whole we will achieve the common good.
If you really look at it, this means that being selfish will lead to the common good. Selfish = good. And thus that's the kind of an American people we are - selfish. Reagan merely pushed that pretty close to its extreme, within the bounds of our basic structure.
In case you think that human beings are indelibly selfish by nature, keep in mind that some people - like the Japanese - value the collective at least as much as the individual. I'm not suggesting we should be like the Japanese, but surely some happy medium is possible.
So many of the responses in polls about health care suggest that everyone thinks it would be great if we had health care for everyone, as long as it costs them nothing. Meaning that their concern for the uninsured its basically theoretical in nature. There is no magic pot of money that exists out there that can pay for it - and I'm not speaking about now with the economic crisis. There never is - there is no money tree.
Those who continue to say that there should be health care for all as long as it costs them nothing personally just need to spend a little time without insurance while coping with an ongoing health problem (see my post above). The view sure looks different from there.
Nov 18th, 2009, 08:02 AM
#48
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 16,459
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
DanM - I agree. Practically all of the over 65 people I talk to seem to like Medicare. I've been receiving my social security checks for about 7 months now, and the communication, sign-up, and all administrative stuff has been excellent. I also find the USPS administration and service to be equal to FedEx and UPS.
Stu Dudley
Stu Dudley
Nov 18th, 2009, 01:09 PM
#49
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 490
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No doubt. Medicaid, farm aid, FEMA, the VA, the disability side of social security, energy assistance, head start, HUD, etc. are the only programs the federal government seems to have a problem running.
Nov 18th, 2009, 01:38 PM
#50
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,523
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
* My son received Social Security survivor's benefits. Very simple to apply for, very simple to receive.
* My 82-year-old mother complains no end about Medicare, although it paid for her back surgery and subsequent rehabilitation, her hospitalization for a heart attack, and it will be providing her a knee replacement next year.
* Social Security has reduced the poverty rate among those over 65 to the lowest of all age groups.
* Head Start is a great program with proven economic benefits.
* I'm engaged in research right now on an incredible federal program for disadvantaged young adults that helps them get a GED and/or other academic credential, learn how to be a good employee, and get career-oriented work (rather than just "a" job) at above-minimum wages - very high success rate, and these are kids who would otherwise be very likely to end up on drugs, on welfare, in prison, etc.
FEMA sucked for Katrina, but that was related to GWB's less-than-stellar choice of administrator. The program has worked quite well for many other national emergencies.
Not that you can tell those on the right side this, but sometimes government IS the solution - GOOD government, anyway.
P.S. One of the largest social benefit programs in the US is the mortgage interest tax deduction. It has been a marvelous social program to help the middle class become homeowners. If you bought your home with a mortgage, then YOU are the recipient of this program! Congratulations!
* My 82-year-old mother complains no end about Medicare, although it paid for her back surgery and subsequent rehabilitation, her hospitalization for a heart attack, and it will be providing her a knee replacement next year.
* Social Security has reduced the poverty rate among those over 65 to the lowest of all age groups.
* Head Start is a great program with proven economic benefits.
* I'm engaged in research right now on an incredible federal program for disadvantaged young adults that helps them get a GED and/or other academic credential, learn how to be a good employee, and get career-oriented work (rather than just "a" job) at above-minimum wages - very high success rate, and these are kids who would otherwise be very likely to end up on drugs, on welfare, in prison, etc.
FEMA sucked for Katrina, but that was related to GWB's less-than-stellar choice of administrator. The program has worked quite well for many other national emergencies.
Not that you can tell those on the right side this, but sometimes government IS the solution - GOOD government, anyway.
P.S. One of the largest social benefit programs in the US is the mortgage interest tax deduction. It has been a marvelous social program to help the middle class become homeowners. If you bought your home with a mortgage, then YOU are the recipient of this program! Congratulations!
Nov 18th, 2009, 01:54 PM
#51
P.S. One of the largest social benefit programs in the US is the mortgage interest tax deduction. It has been a marvelous social program to help the middle class become homeowners. If you bought your home with a mortgage, then YOU are the recipient of this program! Congratulations!>>
strangely, here in the "socialist" UK we abolished mortgage tax relief some time ago. that would be one way that the US could help to fund a national health service.
strangely, here in the "socialist" UK we abolished mortgage tax relief some time ago. that would be one way that the US could help to fund a national health service.
Nov 18th, 2009, 01:56 PM
#52
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 16,459
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My wife spent most of this afternoon on the phone hassling things out with:
1. The Mills Billing Dept
2. The Mills Customer Service
3. Cigna Customer service.
Everyone seems to agree that our total liability should be zero - but after 4 months of "fighting" with this triple layer of bureaucracy, my wife is exhausted and fed up with the entire system.
Then.... just about 1 hour ago, another invoice from Mills arrived in the mail for a "revised" invoice from an Aug 8 procedure (one of the ones Cigna says should be zero). Instead of 0 - it was for 1,000 & change. She called Cigna back, and they said to FAX it to them & they will contact Mills to find out WHY. FYI, Mills is not the doctor or hospital performing the service - they are a "middle-man" insurance group.
Nothing seems to happen unless my wife initiates it.
I don't know how any government run medical insurance system could be more "F..... up" than what we are dealing with. The problem isn't that Cigna or Mills are incompetent - I think that there are just too many layers of different insurance companies involved with something that seems to me to be quite simple. There were no problems at all last year when we ONLY dealt with Cigna - and not Cigna plus Mills.
Sorry to bore everyone with this - but my point is to let others know that the "current system" isn't that great if you have lots of medical procedures performed over a short period of time.
Stu Dudley
1. The Mills Billing Dept
2. The Mills Customer Service
3. Cigna Customer service.
Everyone seems to agree that our total liability should be zero - but after 4 months of "fighting" with this triple layer of bureaucracy, my wife is exhausted and fed up with the entire system.
Then.... just about 1 hour ago, another invoice from Mills arrived in the mail for a "revised" invoice from an Aug 8 procedure (one of the ones Cigna says should be zero). Instead of 0 - it was for 1,000 & change. She called Cigna back, and they said to FAX it to them & they will contact Mills to find out WHY. FYI, Mills is not the doctor or hospital performing the service - they are a "middle-man" insurance group.
Nothing seems to happen unless my wife initiates it.
I don't know how any government run medical insurance system could be more "F..... up" than what we are dealing with. The problem isn't that Cigna or Mills are incompetent - I think that there are just too many layers of different insurance companies involved with something that seems to me to be quite simple. There were no problems at all last year when we ONLY dealt with Cigna - and not Cigna plus Mills.
Sorry to bore everyone with this - but my point is to let others know that the "current system" isn't that great if you have lots of medical procedures performed over a short period of time.
Stu Dudley
Nov 18th, 2009, 01:58 PM
#53
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 728
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hey Ira:
Kerouac says he pays NOTHING for prescribed medicine. Is that (zero) the true cost to the pharmacist of purchasing, stocking and dispensing the medicine, or is the government confiscating money from others to provide the patient with medicine at a price he finds desireable (irrespective of the true cost of the medicine)?
Kerouac says he pays NOTHING for prescribed medicine. Is that (zero) the true cost to the pharmacist of purchasing, stocking and dispensing the medicine, or is the government confiscating money from others to provide the patient with medicine at a price he finds desireable (irrespective of the true cost of the medicine)?
Nov 18th, 2009, 02:08 PM
#54
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 490
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As someone who has a daughter with a lot of medical problems, I understand Stu. As someone who also has represented people before the social security administration, in fights with the VA and lives near the gulf coast and witnesses FEMA firsthand, I have seen enough to make me believe that the government would be worse. Moreover, once started, there would be no way to withdraw the benefit.
As for the mortgage interest deduction, there is a very valid argument that it helped precipitate the latest financial crisis. It is a bunch of economics that I only kind of understand and certainly cannot explain.
Finally, as an attorney who regularly handles pro bono matters, I have represented the marginalized in their fight for government help. I have also represented hospitals and insurance companies and sued hospitals and insuance companies. I have been on all sides of the issue. I simply cannot imagine the government doing a better job. Maybe no worse, but certainly no better. If it is a wash, I think the growth in government and national debt is not worth it.
As for the mortgage interest deduction, there is a very valid argument that it helped precipitate the latest financial crisis. It is a bunch of economics that I only kind of understand and certainly cannot explain.
Finally, as an attorney who regularly handles pro bono matters, I have represented the marginalized in their fight for government help. I have also represented hospitals and insurance companies and sued hospitals and insuance companies. I have been on all sides of the issue. I simply cannot imagine the government doing a better job. Maybe no worse, but certainly no better. If it is a wash, I think the growth in government and national debt is not worth it.
Nov 18th, 2009, 02:15 PM
#55
I had an identical experience as the OP in Paris where an MD came to ur apt, plus two other lengthy doctors visits, one included stiches,all excellent, modern care at low cost compared to US. Also, I received appointments immediately which was a surprise and didn't have to wiat to see the MD once I arrived.
P.S. I'm also in the middle of an insurance mess like Stu.
P.S. I'm also in the middle of an insurance mess like Stu.
Nov 18th, 2009, 02:27 PM
#56
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,523
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
<<As for the mortgage interest deduction, there is a very valid argument that it helped precipitate the latest financial crisis. It is a bunch of economics that I only kind of understand and certainly cannot explain.>>
While undoubtedly the deduction is used as an inducement to buy, because it will result in tax savings, this is a drop in the bucket next to the ridiculously lax lending practices - teaser-rate mortgages with exploding interest rates made to people with inadequate income to pay even the teaser rates by conventional lending standards. And of course, with prices going up and up and up, everyone thought they would make a pile of money by buying now and reselling or refinancing by the time the rates began to adjust upward.
The mortgage interest deduction has been around for eternity, and this is the first time there was this bad a blow-up in the housing or the larger financial markets. I don't think you can lay the blame here.
Although I'm not saying it's a "fair" program, since, as formerly noted, it benefits primarily the middle class, who presumably aren't in need of such social benefits. (Not that many of them realize they are the beneficiaries of this one.)
While undoubtedly the deduction is used as an inducement to buy, because it will result in tax savings, this is a drop in the bucket next to the ridiculously lax lending practices - teaser-rate mortgages with exploding interest rates made to people with inadequate income to pay even the teaser rates by conventional lending standards. And of course, with prices going up and up and up, everyone thought they would make a pile of money by buying now and reselling or refinancing by the time the rates began to adjust upward.
The mortgage interest deduction has been around for eternity, and this is the first time there was this bad a blow-up in the housing or the larger financial markets. I don't think you can lay the blame here.
Although I'm not saying it's a "fair" program, since, as formerly noted, it benefits primarily the middle class, who presumably aren't in need of such social benefits. (Not that many of them realize they are the beneficiaries of this one.)
Nov 18th, 2009, 03:17 PM
#58
Hi ira; I'm soom too be 75 and i'm concerned about increased cost or reduced benifits. However, medicare is working. I think every living person in the US should be covered. It would be great if all could be covered by medicare, but that will never happen. I hope we end up with the strongest bill possible that includes a government option. Richard
Nov 18th, 2009, 03:19 PM
#59
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 16,459
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
>>I simply cannot imagine the government doing a better job. Maybe no worse, but certainly no better<<
So far, none of the European contributors to this thread have mentioned anything about their government health insurance administrators doing a poor/incompetent job. Is their government capable of doing a better job than you suspect our govenment can do??? Or are they doing a poor job & we (US) are not aware of it??
Stu Dudley
So far, none of the European contributors to this thread have mentioned anything about their government health insurance administrators doing a poor/incompetent job. Is their government capable of doing a better job than you suspect our govenment can do??? Or are they doing a poor job & we (US) are not aware of it??
Stu Dudley
Nov 18th, 2009, 03:26 PM
#60
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 814
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For 54 years, I have been on insulin and very well looked after by the NHS in the UK. I haven’t had delays when urgent treatment was required and the care I have received over all those years has been wonderful. The supplies needed e.g. insulin, needles, blood testing equipment etc are provided by the NHS.
My national insurance contributions are no higher than those folks who are in good health. I have always felt awkward about this and after reading this thread, I feel not only awkward but very humble and embarrassed at how fortunate I have been.
I truly hope that my Fodors friends who are having so many problems with their health and the cost of the care find a resolution.
My national insurance contributions are no higher than those folks who are in good health. I have always felt awkward about this and after reading this thread, I feel not only awkward but very humble and embarrassed at how fortunate I have been.
I truly hope that my Fodors friends who are having so many problems with their health and the cost of the care find a resolution.
