...as noted much of this garbage applies only to flights to the United States; much of it is the paranoia of the US government which has pressured the eu into providing a lot of information, much of it really none of their business, before flights are allowed to leave for the United States...of course we all know none of this will really help that the vermin will always be able to figure out ways round this silly security but that's the kind of administration we have right now (and unfortunately much of the population supports it like it is going to help or prevent those really intent)...

I know at Heathrow, when I fly American Airlines, what happens is you have the regular security check before entering the departure area of terminal 3 and yes you are allowed to buy stuff there and carry it on the flight...they don't announce gates for flights to the USA until about 75 minutes before the flight and when you finaly make your way to the gate, you hand over your boarding pass and right after there is a security person who looks at your boarding pass and decides either based on some sort of code or some kind of profiling whether you get the "random" check where they go through everything in your hand luggage...this is only done at the insistance of the US government on flights to the USA...all the rest of the information is collected at check in including passport number, credit card used, complete itinerary, color of hair, color of eyes...if the US government could perfect the technology I'm sure some bureaucrat will insist on a retina scan too but it hasn't quite gotten that far yet.

I went to Ireland in <b>1994</b> as chaperone with a US high school band. The searches and security upon arriving in Ireland were more than we'd ever witnessed up until then. (Sadly, probably for the same reason we now do, as Ireland has been subject to terrorists far longer than we have.)

Of course, upon questioning by some teens as to why every bag was being so thoroughly searched, we found the Irish at least had a sense of humor about it: &quot;Well, we wouldn't want ya bringin' any snakes into Ireland now, would we?&quot;

xyz123dope...If you don't like the security measures flying into the US....then...don't!

That's the attitude I mean...civil liberties mean nothing, unfortunately, to some people.

Again like any of this garbage would stop anything.

USNR,

I remember the 1986 incident. I was living in Paris near Place Maubert. I was walking to a lunch date with a girl who worked at the Banque de France. As I was passing the H&ocirc;tel Dieu a police car came around the corner so fast that it almost rolled, and it would have been rolling over me.

I continued walking. A few minutes later I happened on the scene of the crime, a building a couple of blocks north of the Seine. All of the windows on the 3rd or 4th floor were blown out. Curtains were flying in the air. Broken glass covered the street. I continued on to my lunch date. Later on my way home the whole area was cordoned off. Cops were everwhere. The story I heard or read was that the bomb went off in a men's room of what is the French equivalent of the FBI. IIRC the assistant director was killed.

In following days other bombs were set off around Paris. One was in the post office of the H&ocirc;tel Dieu, a small post office I used often. Some people were killed in that bombing.

As you report, patrols were everywhere. In all train stations 3 man squads armed with carbines marched continuously through the crowds. This was deadly serious business.

I gladly submit to any request of a security officer at any airport, and allow plenty of time for eventualities. I read a book or have a beer while I wait. Sadly, mass murderers are taking joy in causing mayhem. It has become a fact of of our society.

My experience for the past 20 years has been:

- US airlines in Europe have long been more prone to excess security than European airlines. Even in the late 80's, secondary inspection, or interrogation prior to checkin, was routine on AA, TWA and PanAm (even on intra-European flights) even when BA and Virgin didn't bother on flights to the US
- Secondary security searching seems to be almost routine on US airlines' flights to the US. It absolutely isn't on British airlines' flights to the US, though from what I read on this board, it seems routine at Frankfurt
- Apart from that, I really can't tell the difference between security in Europe on intra-European flights and security in the US. Except that security in Britain is invariably better-humoured and polite than in the US.

And one other difference. As the MSNBC article shows so clearly, Americans always create huge global theories about foreigners from one example of how their own companies behave. Is logic not on any US school syllabuses then?

Our LTU return flight out of D&uuml;sseldorf in June 2004 was very thorough! We had two very meticulous security screenings prior to boarding. One was upon entering the &quot;secure&quot; area and the other just outside our gate. No &quot;interview&quot; in either situation though.

This past June we flew back from K&ouml;ln. We were interviewed while in line to check-in at the airline counter but it wasn't much and certainly done in a professional manner, causing absolutely no delay. Following that we experienced only a single security screening of our persons and carry-ons. Compared to the D&uuml;sseldorf experience, I'll take K&ouml;ln everytime! We ended-up with 3+ hours to kill because we had gotten to the airport prepared for the arduous security process. At least the Kolsch was marvelous!

MvK

I fly regulary within Europe for business reasons and my experience is that 60 minutes are plenty for intra-European flights if the check-in is fast. I normally use e-tickets with a check-in at an automat and then a luggage drop-off and in airports as Frankfurt I´ve seldomn needed more than 5 minutes for that.

What can be annoying are double security checks. In the case described, they quite certainly resulted from the US being the destination since other standards are required than from the regular security check. If an airport hasn´t got the ability to set up a seperated space for US-bound flights, passengers have to go through the regular security check just to get into the area from which they proceed to their &quot;real&quot; security check. Another problem results from transfer passengers. If you have passengers coming from flights from non-EU countries, they now need to go through a control according to the new EU rules (no liquids). If the airports can´t seperate them from the new passengers, everybody has to go through a security check at the gate, even if one just has passed a similar one to enter the area.

As for patting down: again it depends on the security level. If the security is high, everybody gets a patdown, no matter whether the metal detector is set off or not. In that case, you don´t need to take off metal stuff since they will inspect you anyway. I´m somewhat surprised that the auhor found these patdowns brusque and worthy of a lawsuit. I experienced quite a lot of them and always found them to be very professional. Of course one gets touched but that´s the idea of a patdown, isn´t it?

My husband is always selected for a pat-down at security because his bionic knee sets off the metal detector. He tells me that our recent transfer in Amsterdam (to an intra-European flight) included the most intimate search he's ever undergone.

How much should you tip the person who pats you down?

Does anyone know?

&gt;... like any of this garbage would stop anything.&lt;

And if Richard Reid had had a better pack of matches?

If current security measures had been in force before 9/11?

When was the last time an ElAl plane was hijacked?

&gt;How much should you tip the person who pats you down?&lt;

In general, European service personnel do not expect tips for just doing their job.

However, if it was an extra good pat down, a Euro would be in order.

Of course Ira if the idiotic pilots had not left their cockpit door open, and adequate locks were on cockpit doors, then 9/11 wouldn't have happened either......

BTW let me make it clear, I don't object to security checks in general and I have no problem with them checking me at security and checking my shoes and all that but once is enough, it's the extra stuff only on flights to the United States that seem to be simply the result of general paranoia that has swept the country when any competence at all on the part of the inteligence agencies or even on the airlines (see above about the cockpit doors) would have prevented the whole thing.

...BTW to lighten up a bit...

Do you know that in the 14th and 15th century, you were expected to tip your executioner, especially if you were nobility and given the honor of being executed by a swordsman beheading you, so that they would make a clean cut....

&lt;&lt;&lt; When was the last time an ElAl plane was hijacked? &gt;&gt;&gt;

and can you imagine the &quot;fun&quot; if they introduced Israeli style pre-flight security on all flights

No offense, but it sure seems like a lot of whining going on. In the scheme of things is it really all that bad for a little extra security?

Don't know about European but we just flew in to Heathrow, then up to Edinburgh, and the whole thing in reverse, and there was not very much security...just a fleeting check. So guess that it is a random thing, the heavy duty stuff, huh?

OK, those of you that actually feel safer flying today than you did before the TSA was formed...raise your hands.

Anyone? Bueller? Anyone?

Let's be real. If you really wanted to cause a problem now, are you going through the regular check in? Are you going to travel alone, knowing that they &quot;profile&quot; single travelers? Are you going to travel one way, knowing they profile one-way travelers? And, oh yeah, how many 3oz bottles of liquid can you put together to get what you need? How is THAT making us safer? THree of you are traveling together, you buy a bottle of water once you're through the gate, and mix all of your 3 oz's of whatever together, yes?

I mean, really. Two pencils and a box of dental floss can be used as a garote.

I feel NO safer and actually feel LESS safe because I think they spend so much time &quot;securing&quot; people/things that are a waste of time and resources. I have twice accidentally walked through security with &quot;forbidden&quot; items. The first, a pair of nail clippers. They dug through my purse 6 times and still couldn't find them. They finally let me go. I found them later that week. The second was a pair of very sharp cuticle scissors I had borrowed from my sister. The stopped my bag, took out the metal nail file and I found the scissors in my bag when I got home!!!

Our best security now is the memory of 9/11. Every one of us is more sensitive/more keen to what is going on in the airplane and I have no doubt I and my fellow passengers would take action if we had to. (Look at the increased incident rate of passengers tackling/holding unruly/psychotic planemates.)

So, let me ask again. Raise your hand if YOU feel safer than you did prior to TSA? Anyone??? Bueller???