Itinerary Questions
Dec 4th, 2013, 02:33 PM
#21
PQ - but one of your primary reasons for traveling to Europe is to ride the trains. For most of us -- being somewhere is MUCH more important than the getting there . . .
You need to tell folks up front that you are a train geek - lots of other people are as well. But the majority would rather spend their time exploring their destinations and don't care so much about rail cars, stations, sleepers, etc . . .
You need to tell folks up front that you are a train geek - lots of other people are as well. But the majority would rather spend their time exploring their destinations and don't care so much about rail cars, stations, sleepers, etc . . .
Dec 4th, 2013, 02:40 PM
#22
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Nor does PQ's suggestion fit the OP's own statement that "We understand that we need to focus our trip so that we do not get bogged down travelling on trains and buses, ultimately draining our energy."
Oops.
Hub and spoke. Pick your hubs and you'll not be bored due to the numerous day trip opportunities each will have. This isn't that hard.
Oops.
Hub and spoke. Pick your hubs and you'll not be bored due to the numerous day trip opportunities each will have. This isn't that hard.
Dec 4th, 2013, 03:59 PM
#23
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If I were jspedz, I might disregard condescending oldsters who deem his first-draft itinerary "bat-guano crazy" and provide other informational wunder-tips like "this isn't that hard" and "Smarten up." (It's actually quite hard if you aren't certain of your destinations!) And if "going to places off the beaten path" is his specific objective, why insist that he's too young to really want that? Maybe he's just underinformed on what places those might be and needs some specific suggestions.
jspedz, you and your wife have a lot of time to sort out your options and refine your plan, lots of time until you need to get rail tickets or passes. I would gather lots more suggestions and do some more reading before finalizing anything.
As for allocating some of those 20 extra days... Berlin and London appear the most underfed on your original plan. Amsterdam too, especially if you want any outings.
jspedz, you and your wife have a lot of time to sort out your options and refine your plan, lots of time until you need to get rail tickets or passes. I would gather lots more suggestions and do some more reading before finalizing anything.
As for allocating some of those 20 extra days... Berlin and London appear the most underfed on your original plan. Amsterdam too, especially if you want any outings.
Dec 4th, 2013, 06:01 PM
#24
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Thank you everyone for your suggestions. This is a great place to hear others debate and suggest what works and what does not work for a european vacation.
I can gain a sense that a more basic itinerary is vital, and that having "base" cities is something that I should look into. Choose a certain number of base cities and then see what is close by to see. I get that now.
It's difficult because it is our first time going to Europe, and we know that it will likely be a long time before we go back again. I think it will be a matter of deciding where we "really want to go" versus where we want to go because we are in Europe.
I will work on the itinerary, and like you mentioned Russ, we do have quite a bit of time to refine the plan. Planning is all part of the fun!
I can gain a sense that a more basic itinerary is vital, and that having "base" cities is something that I should look into. Choose a certain number of base cities and then see what is close by to see. I get that now.
It's difficult because it is our first time going to Europe, and we know that it will likely be a long time before we go back again. I think it will be a matter of deciding where we "really want to go" versus where we want to go because we are in Europe.
I will work on the itinerary, and like you mentioned Russ, we do have quite a bit of time to refine the plan. Planning is all part of the fun!
Dec 4th, 2013, 06:49 PM
#25
>>I think it will be a matter of deciding where we "really want to go" versus where we want to go because we are in Europe.<<
That is a great way of looking at things. Which places do you dream about visiting/which ones 'speak' to you - not just a list of famous places in Europe.
That is a great way of looking at things. Which places do you dream about visiting/which ones 'speak' to you - not just a list of famous places in Europe.
Dec 5th, 2013, 03:22 AM
#26
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I would say minimum days in
Cologne, Germany- 1 you can visit main things in one day since most of them are all togheter, just coming out of Central Station you can see the Cathedral.
Frankfurt, Germany - 1 The Altstadt is the one to get to know
Heidelberg, Germany- 1 I made it by bicycle in half a day and then jumped to Darmstadt.
Salzburg, Austria - 1
Prague, Czech Republic -2
Cologne, Germany- 1 you can visit main things in one day since most of them are all togheter, just coming out of Central Station you can see the Cathedral.
Frankfurt, Germany - 1 The Altstadt is the one to get to know
Heidelberg, Germany- 1 I made it by bicycle in half a day and then jumped to Darmstadt.
Salzburg, Austria - 1
Prague, Czech Republic -2
Dec 5th, 2013, 06:16 AM
#27
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PQ - but one of your primary reasons for traveling to Europe is to ride the trains. For most of us -- being somewhere is MUCH more important than the getting there . . .>
Not on my first trip - my first trip I wanted to see as many of the famous cities that I've dreamt of seeing my whole life and I am trying to put my eyes back into that of a first-time visitor - should they spend a week each in just five cities or say 3.5 days in 10 cities - I think for most the latter is what they want. Well that is just my take you have yours that you must spend a week at least or it is not worth visiting at all - two different philosophies.
and yes traveling between cities can be as nice as dwelling in one town more - see more of the Europe you came to see - see France and not just Paris - see England and not just London, etc.
A chacun son gout as the French say (sp?)
Not on my first trip - my first trip I wanted to see as many of the famous cities that I've dreamt of seeing my whole life and I am trying to put my eyes back into that of a first-time visitor - should they spend a week each in just five cities or say 3.5 days in 10 cities - I think for most the latter is what they want. Well that is just my take you have yours that you must spend a week at least or it is not worth visiting at all - two different philosophies.
and yes traveling between cities can be as nice as dwelling in one town more - see more of the Europe you came to see - see France and not just Paris - see England and not just London, etc.
A chacun son gout as the French say (sp?)
Dec 21st, 2013, 01:18 PM
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Cologne, Germany- 1 you can visit main things in one day since most of them are all togheter, just coming out of Central Station you can see the Cathedral.>
I have been in Cologne zillions of times on business and except for the stupendous cathedral there is little for the average first-time tourist to do there besides stroll a bit along the Rhine walk or bop around the oft-thronged pedestrian shopping street.
Put your bags in a station locker - spend a few hours and move on to some place much more old-worldish and romantic - Cologne like many large German cities was blitzed in WW2 and not IMO all that nicely rebuilt - though like any German city is it very pleasant - the pedestrian only city center always being so so nice.
I have been in Cologne zillions of times on business and except for the stupendous cathedral there is little for the average first-time tourist to do there besides stroll a bit along the Rhine walk or bop around the oft-thronged pedestrian shopping street.
Put your bags in a station locker - spend a few hours and move on to some place much more old-worldish and romantic - Cologne like many large German cities was blitzed in WW2 and not IMO all that nicely rebuilt - though like any German city is it very pleasant - the pedestrian only city center always being so so nice.
Dec 21st, 2013, 04:24 PM
#31
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I think interest in history is a broad term.
Depending on what one wants to see, Cologne and the surounding area offers a lot.
The cathedral itself is enough to spend quite a lot of time since it offers a very well-documented history from its Roman foundations to the middle-age when ist building started to the extraordinary story how it was finished in the 19th century.
Next to it is the Roman-Germanic museum about Rome's presence in the region and 20 minutes by train the German Museum in Bonn which is probably the most extensive exhibition about German post-war history.
Or from Heidelberg one can easily visit for example Speyer cathedral, a world heritage sight. Next to it is a museum which has very often a very interesting special exhibition next to ist permanent ones.
Depending on what one wants to see, Cologne and the surounding area offers a lot.
The cathedral itself is enough to spend quite a lot of time since it offers a very well-documented history from its Roman foundations to the middle-age when ist building started to the extraordinary story how it was finished in the 19th century.
Next to it is the Roman-Germanic museum about Rome's presence in the region and 20 minutes by train the German Museum in Bonn which is probably the most extensive exhibition about German post-war history.
Or from Heidelberg one can easily visit for example Speyer cathedral, a world heritage sight. Next to it is a museum which has very often a very interesting special exhibition next to ist permanent ones.
Dec 21st, 2013, 05:10 PM
#32
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Jspedz... You've been given some good advice above, and it's great do see you are taking it all on board. I thought I'd just offer my own take on your itinerary. In your original plan, you have 7 cities in Germany over 14 nights. Perhaps these could be consolidated to 2 or 3 cities, with some day trips. You also have 3 cities in Belgium over 4 nights. I'd suggest paring this down to one city for 3 nights (I'd pick Brugges, with a day trip to Ghent).
Please be sure to add more time to London. It is huge city with zillions of things to see and do. I find it interesting that you did not include Paris in your plan... perhaps it doesn't hold much interest for you, but if it does, it's an easy train ride from London (Eurostar). If you do include Paris, be sure to give yourself at least 4 nights there. In fact, I'd suggest setting a three night minimum for any city you choose to stay. Any place that deserves less time than that could be visited on a day trip from another location. I'd also suggest you make sure to keep one or two non-urban destinations within your two-month plan. Time in the mountains or countryside provides a different perspective on European life, and can be an enjoyable contrast to city living over such a long trip.
What a wonderful trip you have to look forward to! Yes, the planning is half the fun. Enjoy!
Please be sure to add more time to London. It is huge city with zillions of things to see and do. I find it interesting that you did not include Paris in your plan... perhaps it doesn't hold much interest for you, but if it does, it's an easy train ride from London (Eurostar). If you do include Paris, be sure to give yourself at least 4 nights there. In fact, I'd suggest setting a three night minimum for any city you choose to stay. Any place that deserves less time than that could be visited on a day trip from another location. I'd also suggest you make sure to keep one or two non-urban destinations within your two-month plan. Time in the mountains or countryside provides a different perspective on European life, and can be an enjoyable contrast to city living over such a long trip.
What a wonderful trip you have to look forward to! Yes, the planning is half the fun. Enjoy!
Dec 21st, 2013, 05:11 PM
#33
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Yes, jspedz, planning is a lot of the fun. I think it is important to first pick out your "must sees" -- the places you would be terribly sad to have to cut. Once, those are in place you can decide how much time you want to spend in each place. From there you can always add on a few side trips or other stops.
Have fun planning!
Have fun planning!
Dec 21st, 2013, 08:16 PM
#34
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You've gotten some great advice already and I'm looking forward to seeing what you do with it. I also wanted to commend you for giving us a bit of information about your interests -- they make such a difference, so knowing something of your aspirations really helps us respond!
BTW, while I recognize the merits of base cities, I don't often use them -- I'm more likely to plan a route that keeps me moving forward, rather than one that takes me to hubs from which I explore out and back. I think the more fundamental point is to find a way to maximize the time you having for seeing or experiencing your highest priorities while minimizing the time you spend getting from one place or experience to the next.
Hope that helps!
BTW, while I recognize the merits of base cities, I don't often use them -- I'm more likely to plan a route that keeps me moving forward, rather than one that takes me to hubs from which I explore out and back. I think the more fundamental point is to find a way to maximize the time you having for seeing or experiencing your highest priorities while minimizing the time you spend getting from one place or experience to the next.
Hope that helps!
Dec 22nd, 2013, 03:57 AM
#35
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20 minutes by train the German Museum in Bonn which is probably the most extensive exhibition about German post-war history.>
I think Bonn is one of the most underrated off the radar cities for foreign tourists but is really a gem - I have in the past spent days there on business - one of the few German towns not decimated in WW2 - perhaps why it was chosen as the capital of West Germany after the war it still retains the aura of a world capital though those functions have moved to Berlin with the re-united Germany.
There is the Mozart House for Mozart buffs to visit and like Hans say the superlative Germany post-war history museum - there is a nice Rhine Ufer - a riverside bike and footpaths and you can take a tram to Bad Godesberg (or boat) - a nice kind of resort town with a famous ruined castle topping an old volcanic plug.
Cologne could be a nice day trip from Bonn or if coming via Cologne spend some hours there seeing the nice things Hans talks about and end up IMO a much more romantic Bonn for the night.
I think Bonn is one of the most underrated off the radar cities for foreign tourists but is really a gem - I have in the past spent days there on business - one of the few German towns not decimated in WW2 - perhaps why it was chosen as the capital of West Germany after the war it still retains the aura of a world capital though those functions have moved to Berlin with the re-united Germany.
There is the Mozart House for Mozart buffs to visit and like Hans say the superlative Germany post-war history museum - there is a nice Rhine Ufer - a riverside bike and footpaths and you can take a tram to Bad Godesberg (or boat) - a nice kind of resort town with a famous ruined castle topping an old volcanic plug.
Cologne could be a nice day trip from Bonn or if coming via Cologne spend some hours there seeing the nice things Hans talks about and end up IMO a much more romantic Bonn for the night.
Jan 21st, 2014, 05:37 AM
#36
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After some research, and considering your suggestions I have come up with another itinerary.
London/Bath - 5 days
Amsterdam, - 4 days
Ghent - 3 days
Cologne, Germany - 2 days
Bacharach, Germany - 2 days
Nuremberg, Germany - 3 days
Munich, Germany - 4 days
Salzburg, Austria - 4 days
Vienna, Austria -4 days
Prague, Czech Republic - 4 days
Dresden, Germany -2 days
Berlin, Germany -4 days
I count 41 days. We plan on spending at the most 2 months in Europe, so we have some wiggle room with the days. Some we could stay longer than the above given days. We understand that we will not be able to 'see' a lot of the cities and towns listed, that is okay. We are going into it with the understanding that we will one day go back to the places that we really liked visiting.
Moreover,
- I decided to leave off Switzerland for this trip. We would still like to do some hiking in the alps however and have heard some great things about Berchtesgaden and Werfen.
- I recently looked into Budapest and was amazed with the architecture and spas...would we be foolish to add another destination to our trip? Or as many of you have mentioned, lengthen the amount of time we have in each spot with the extra days we have to fill our itinerary?
Planning is difficult but a lot of fun! We still have a lot of time left before we go, so lots of time left to research, learn and be inspired.
Thoughts?
London/Bath - 5 days
Amsterdam, - 4 days
Ghent - 3 days
Cologne, Germany - 2 days
Bacharach, Germany - 2 days
Nuremberg, Germany - 3 days
Munich, Germany - 4 days
Salzburg, Austria - 4 days
Vienna, Austria -4 days
Prague, Czech Republic - 4 days
Dresden, Germany -2 days
Berlin, Germany -4 days
I count 41 days. We plan on spending at the most 2 months in Europe, so we have some wiggle room with the days. Some we could stay longer than the above given days. We understand that we will not be able to 'see' a lot of the cities and towns listed, that is okay. We are going into it with the understanding that we will one day go back to the places that we really liked visiting.
Moreover,
- I decided to leave off Switzerland for this trip. We would still like to do some hiking in the alps however and have heard some great things about Berchtesgaden and Werfen.
- I recently looked into Budapest and was amazed with the architecture and spas...would we be foolish to add another destination to our trip? Or as many of you have mentioned, lengthen the amount of time we have in each spot with the extra days we have to fill our itinerary?
Planning is difficult but a lot of fun! We still have a lot of time left before we go, so lots of time left to research, learn and be inspired.
Thoughts?
Jan 21st, 2014, 06:41 AM
#37
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Hmm.
Three quick inputs: (1) with the time you have, don't miss Paris - looks like you're effectively cutting it for Salzburg and Munich and folks who've been to all 3 probably wouldn't advise that; (2) map it on paper and trace your route. If you cross lines anywhere, you messed up so reconfigure the route accordingly; (3) that's a lot of time for Munich and Salzburg, and Salzburg - you could do 4-5 nights Munich and see Salzburg in a day trip.
There are similar things you can do: 3 nights Cologne to include a day trip to Bacharach then go from Cologne to Nuremberg; 5 nights Berlin to include a day trip to Dresden.
Budapest is great but you need to hit it from Vienna so you'd reconfigure the trip to end there and go Berlin to Prague to Vienna to Budapest.
Three quick inputs: (1) with the time you have, don't miss Paris - looks like you're effectively cutting it for Salzburg and Munich and folks who've been to all 3 probably wouldn't advise that; (2) map it on paper and trace your route. If you cross lines anywhere, you messed up so reconfigure the route accordingly; (3) that's a lot of time for Munich and Salzburg, and Salzburg - you could do 4-5 nights Munich and see Salzburg in a day trip.
There are similar things you can do: 3 nights Cologne to include a day trip to Bacharach then go from Cologne to Nuremberg; 5 nights Berlin to include a day trip to Dresden.
Budapest is great but you need to hit it from Vienna so you'd reconfigure the trip to end there and go Berlin to Prague to Vienna to Budapest.
Jan 21st, 2014, 11:34 AM
#38
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Thanks BigRuss. The reason for leaving out Paris (and France for that matter) is because we know for sure that we want to return to just France in the future. There is too much we want to see in France (Paris, wineries, WW1 and WW2 battlefields, southern France). When we go to Paris we want to really have some time to see what we want to see.
This trip meanwhile is really our first time to Europe and wanted to explore these places first.
Thanks for the tips regarding Salzburg and Munich. The reason for putting down Salzburg for that long is because we want to do some day trips from there (Werfen caves etc).
The Bacharach day trip from Cologne is an interesting idea. I am a little concerned about backtracking though (even though its only 1 hour and 45 minutes away). I suppose we will have to decide what works best. Thanks for the input BigRuss.
This trip meanwhile is really our first time to Europe and wanted to explore these places first.
Thanks for the tips regarding Salzburg and Munich. The reason for putting down Salzburg for that long is because we want to do some day trips from there (Werfen caves etc).
The Bacharach day trip from Cologne is an interesting idea. I am a little concerned about backtracking though (even though its only 1 hour and 45 minutes away). I suppose we will have to decide what works best. Thanks for the input BigRuss.
Jan 21st, 2014, 12:01 PM
#39
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When I first read the list of countries you had tagged in your thread I figured you would be travelling for 6 months or so.
I'm very pleased you listened to the advice you were given and rearranged your itinerary. Nicely done.
I'm very pleased you listened to the advice you were given and rearranged your itinerary. Nicely done.
