Italy and Switzerland Itinerary; Red-eye Trains; Fancy dress occassion
Jul 31st, 2009, 05:59 PM
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Italy and Switzerland Itinerary; Red-eye Trains; Fancy dress occassion
My soon to be husband and I are taking our honeymoon to Europe at the beginning of October. We have 2 weeks to spend and wanted to see the area around Lucern, Switzerland and as much of Italy as we can comfortably fit in. Our in-progress itinerary, so far:
Sat, Oct 10: Get Married!
Sun: Fly out of the east coast of USA.
Monday: Arrive in Switzerland
3 nights (Mon night, Tues night, Wed night) in Switzerland in and around Lucern. Perhaps a day trip to hike the mountains nearby or a train trip to Grindelwald to hike the trails.
2 nights (Thurs night, Friday night) in Venice.
2 nights (Saturday night, Sunday night) in Cinque Terre.
2 nights (Monday night, Tuesday night) in Florence.
3 nights (Wednesday night, Thursday night, Friday night) in Rome.
Saturday: Fly home from Rome.
Is this too much? My coworker says a day in Florence is plenty. However, I have read posts here that insist 3 weeks in Florence would still leave you wanting more. We are a young-at-heart couple if not young-in-years (we are mid-30's) and are very active but also enjoy museums (I love art galleries). I think we can handle the travel but I don't want to try to kill ourselves with activities. Is this a reasonable pace?
Also, I have heard that there are "red-eye" trains available (with sleeper cars). I wonder if this is practical, especially on the leg from Switzerland to Venice (through Milan, probably). Does anyone have experience with sleeper car trains?
And finally, I bought a very lovely, very expensive, very formal, designer gown (floor length with modest train) last year and I am always looking for an occassion to wear it. Can anyone recommend a place to wear it to? Perhaps a restaurant or ... ? Opera and theater in Italian are not my first choices but perhaps there are other 5 star events to attend in a formal gown?
Suggestions and advice are most welcome.
Thank you!
Sat, Oct 10: Get Married!
Sun: Fly out of the east coast of USA.
Monday: Arrive in Switzerland
3 nights (Mon night, Tues night, Wed night) in Switzerland in and around Lucern. Perhaps a day trip to hike the mountains nearby or a train trip to Grindelwald to hike the trails.
2 nights (Thurs night, Friday night) in Venice.
2 nights (Saturday night, Sunday night) in Cinque Terre.
2 nights (Monday night, Tuesday night) in Florence.
3 nights (Wednesday night, Thursday night, Friday night) in Rome.
Saturday: Fly home from Rome.
Is this too much? My coworker says a day in Florence is plenty. However, I have read posts here that insist 3 weeks in Florence would still leave you wanting more. We are a young-at-heart couple if not young-in-years (we are mid-30's) and are very active but also enjoy museums (I love art galleries). I think we can handle the travel but I don't want to try to kill ourselves with activities. Is this a reasonable pace?
Also, I have heard that there are "red-eye" trains available (with sleeper cars). I wonder if this is practical, especially on the leg from Switzerland to Venice (through Milan, probably). Does anyone have experience with sleeper car trains?
And finally, I bought a very lovely, very expensive, very formal, designer gown (floor length with modest train) last year and I am always looking for an occassion to wear it. Can anyone recommend a place to wear it to? Perhaps a restaurant or ... ? Opera and theater in Italian are not my first choices but perhaps there are other 5 star events to attend in a formal gown?
Suggestions and advice are most welcome.
Thank you!
Jul 31st, 2009, 06:21 PM
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Some might say that you are doing too much--I wouldn't travel this fast anymore, but I'm 20 years older than you. I think this itinerary is possible and think it is good that you have no one-night stays anywhere.
However, do check travel times between your proposed destinations. In general, changing cities eats up at east half a day traveling, waiting, dealing with hotels at both ends, and so forth. The trip from Venice to Cinque Terre takes 5-6 hours for travel alone, so add in departing and arriving at hotels and making various connections and you'll pretty much lose that day. Take into considertaion how all these connections affect your time to sightsee and relax especially after the excitement and activity of your wedding.
I can't sleep on trains so I can't comment on how well that might work for you.
With all the traveling you plan to do--I assume by train--I would want to be traveling with as little luggage as possible, which would not include dragging around a full-length formal gown on four or more train trips just to wear one time.
If it were me, I choose two out of three of Venice, Cinque Terre, or Florence to add some ease to the schedule. But that's me and you are you.
However, do check travel times between your proposed destinations. In general, changing cities eats up at east half a day traveling, waiting, dealing with hotels at both ends, and so forth. The trip from Venice to Cinque Terre takes 5-6 hours for travel alone, so add in departing and arriving at hotels and making various connections and you'll pretty much lose that day. Take into considertaion how all these connections affect your time to sightsee and relax especially after the excitement and activity of your wedding.
I can't sleep on trains so I can't comment on how well that might work for you.
With all the traveling you plan to do--I assume by train--I would want to be traveling with as little luggage as possible, which would not include dragging around a full-length formal gown on four or more train trips just to wear one time.
If it were me, I choose two out of three of Venice, Cinque Terre, or Florence to add some ease to the schedule. But that's me and you are you.
Jul 31st, 2009, 07:05 PM
#3
Ditto ellenem's comments. Since you're leaving immediately after your wedding and presumably several hectic days, I'd want to slow down. I think Lucerne is a nice first stop. Arrival, trains to Lucerne and Lucerne itself will likely be more organized and calmer than, say, Rome or Venice.
I'd also drop one destination, but it definitely wouldn't be Florence since you mentioned, "I love art galleries." I'd leave Rome for another trip when you can give it more than 2 full days.
Would you consider substituting Lake Lugano or Lake Como for the time in Cinque Terre? Lucerne-Lake-Florence-Venice would keep all your train rides under 4 hours. You could train Lucerne-Lake during daylight hours and not miss some pretty scenery.
I'd also drop one destination, but it definitely wouldn't be Florence since you mentioned, "I love art galleries." I'd leave Rome for another trip when you can give it more than 2 full days.
Would you consider substituting Lake Lugano or Lake Como for the time in Cinque Terre? Lucerne-Lake-Florence-Venice would keep all your train rides under 4 hours. You could train Lucerne-Lake during daylight hours and not miss some pretty scenery.
Jul 31st, 2009, 08:08 PM
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I reread my post and want to be clear: I would keep Lucerne and Rome and keep two others, probably Florence and Venice or Florence and Cinque Terre. Jean's suggestions to stay north are also a good option if you haven't booked your flights ye.
Jul 31st, 2009, 08:46 PM
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This is great advice! We haven't booked the flights yet and are working out the train schedules, etc this weekend/week/next weekend. It is terrible to try to pick a city to leave out but I can see why it would be time-saving to do so. Alas, if only Americans had more vacation time. 
I had not thought about enjoying the scenery from the train but that is definitely something to consider when investigating night trains. Great point!
Also, ellenem, I had not considered train travel with a ball gown in tow. I think you are right to suggest leaving my gown at home. Perhaps on another, more focused trip to Europe it can come with me.
Thank you both for the advice! I will try to update this post once I have more of the details ironed out.
I had not thought about enjoying the scenery from the train but that is definitely something to consider when investigating night trains. Great point!
Also, ellenem, I had not considered train travel with a ball gown in tow. I think you are right to suggest leaving my gown at home. Perhaps on another, more focused trip to Europe it can come with me.
Thank you both for the advice! I will try to update this post once I have more of the details ironed out.
Aug 1st, 2009, 05:43 AM
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Leave the gown at home--you will not need it.
Forget night trains--just not needed.
Pick 4 destinations. I would do these:
Luzern
Lugano[ Como]
Florence
Rome
That makes a good trip with easy logistics.
Forget night trains--just not needed.
Pick 4 destinations. I would do these:
Luzern
Lugano[ Como]
Florence
Rome
That makes a good trip with easy logistics.
Aug 1st, 2009, 06:32 AM
#7
Second (third?) the suggestion to visit one of the lakes - I liked Maggiore. Definitely include Venice! Plenty of art there, plus it's unique and beautiful. For loads of info on European rains see seat61.com
Aug 1st, 2009, 06:37 AM
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Hi Pk
>Is this too much?<
Not if you like packing, riding trains and unpacking.
The CT is a coastal resort. It will not be at its best in Oct (cold, rain, wind are not unusual).
Enjoy the rest of your trip.
>Is this too much?<
Not if you like packing, riding trains and unpacking.
The CT is a coastal resort. It will not be at its best in Oct (cold, rain, wind are not unusual).
Enjoy the rest of your trip.
Aug 1st, 2009, 06:44 AM
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Agree that you ought to cut one destination. My choice to cut would be Cinque Terre, partly because it's a little out of your way and partly because the weather becomes less reliable as you move into October. There's not much to do in Cinque Terre if it's pouring rain. Of course, you are on your honeymoon....
Venice, Florence and Rome could all easily absorb your extra 2 days. With 2 nights plus transportation in and transportation out, you really only have 1.5 days each in Venice and Florence.
Venice, Florence and Rome could all easily absorb your extra 2 days. With 2 nights plus transportation in and transportation out, you really only have 1.5 days each in Venice and Florence.
Aug 1st, 2009, 08:36 AM
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It isn't too many destinations, per se, but it is a fair amount of travel. I would probably cut out Venice, though, just because it is too far out of the way, particularly in this order. It is a 10 to 12 hour train ride from Lucerne, with 2 to 5 connections. You would be better off taking the train to Zurich and flying.
Come to think of it, even Florence is a 6-hour trip from Lucerne, so it may be Lucerne that is the outlier here. At 6-hours, it makes flying again an option.
And, yes, I fully anticipate the assembled hordes screaming that flying is such a hassle, to which the answer is that 6-hour train rides are no better. For example, you can take the 10:10 train from Luzern to Zurich airport, catch the 12:50 flight to Florence and land at 14:05. Even assuming it is an hour to get bags and get into the city from the airport, you have shaved more than an hour off of the trip by train. The savings are far more dramatic should you want to stick with Venice.
Basically, I think the only way to fit Lucerne in is to both fly AND seriously consider dropping an Italian destination. My vote? Save Luzern and focus on Italy.
Come to think of it, even Florence is a 6-hour trip from Lucerne, so it may be Lucerne that is the outlier here. At 6-hours, it makes flying again an option.
And, yes, I fully anticipate the assembled hordes screaming that flying is such a hassle, to which the answer is that 6-hour train rides are no better. For example, you can take the 10:10 train from Luzern to Zurich airport, catch the 12:50 flight to Florence and land at 14:05. Even assuming it is an hour to get bags and get into the city from the airport, you have shaved more than an hour off of the trip by train. The savings are far more dramatic should you want to stick with Venice.
Basically, I think the only way to fit Lucerne in is to both fly AND seriously consider dropping an Italian destination. My vote? Save Luzern and focus on Italy.
Aug 1st, 2009, 09:46 AM
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Just to correct Ira's post (since I live near le Cinque Terre).
October is a beautiful month is this area, especially since you are coming in the first half, when cold, wet and rain would be unusual. But looking at your itinerary, and your interests, I would not insist on keeping le Cinque Terre. You've got plenty else to do.
And leave the ball gown at home.
October is a beautiful month is this area, especially since you are coming in the first half, when cold, wet and rain would be unusual. But looking at your itinerary, and your interests, I would not insist on keeping le Cinque Terre. You've got plenty else to do.
And leave the ball gown at home.
Aug 1st, 2009, 09:52 AM
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Can't imagine where you would wear a gown like that - and dragging it and all the accessories through europe - along with your husband's tuxedo (or were you planning on going someplace alone?) will be a pain in the butt.
As for the itinerary, coming directly after a very busy wedding week I would slow down considerably. You have way too much time on trains (although you'll probably just sleep from exhaustion) and way too little time see/doing things. I would drop 2 places form Italy - probably Cinque Terre and Venice - to give you a little time to see other places.
The mistake you're making is counting nights (many people do this since they're considering hotels) - but you're not counting how many DAYS you actually have anywhere (2 nights = only 1 day). (IMHO Rome needs a minimum of 3 days - 4 nights - just to see the basics, but the first time we went it was 6 days - and we still didn't get to some of our must sees.)
I assume you want some late mornings and some romantic late dinners - but all that rushing around won;t really give you any time to relax.
As for the itinerary, coming directly after a very busy wedding week I would slow down considerably. You have way too much time on trains (although you'll probably just sleep from exhaustion) and way too little time see/doing things. I would drop 2 places form Italy - probably Cinque Terre and Venice - to give you a little time to see other places.
The mistake you're making is counting nights (many people do this since they're considering hotels) - but you're not counting how many DAYS you actually have anywhere (2 nights = only 1 day). (IMHO Rome needs a minimum of 3 days - 4 nights - just to see the basics, but the first time we went it was 6 days - and we still didn't get to some of our must sees.)
I assume you want some late mornings and some romantic late dinners - but all that rushing around won;t really give you any time to relax.
Aug 1st, 2009, 09:55 AM
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**Also, ellenem, I had not considered train travel with a ball gown in tow.**
Glad I was able to offer you this insight. I live in NYC and most of my travel is on trains, busses, subways--public transit of some kind. It is second nature to NYers to consider how much stuff they will be dragging around from place to place.
I didn't even mention that if you were to be in a formal gown, then probably your husband would need and equally formal outfit-- a proper suit if nothing else--so it becomes even more cumbersome. And then there are the appropriate shoes to wear with the formal outfits, accessories . . . it escalates quickly.
It sounds like you have a good attitude to create the best honeymoon for you.
Glad I was able to offer you this insight. I live in NYC and most of my travel is on trains, busses, subways--public transit of some kind. It is second nature to NYers to consider how much stuff they will be dragging around from place to place.
I didn't even mention that if you were to be in a formal gown, then probably your husband would need and equally formal outfit-- a proper suit if nothing else--so it becomes even more cumbersome. And then there are the appropriate shoes to wear with the formal outfits, accessories . . . it escalates quickly.
It sounds like you have a good attitude to create the best honeymoon for you.
Aug 3rd, 2009, 09:13 PM
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I've been to Italy twice, the 2nd time through Luzern, and I'd vote for cutting out Rome! You can swing Zurich->Luzern easily as a no-hassle arrival.
(Or fly into/out of Milan and skip Luzern in favor of Stresa or another lake spot, our wonderful 1st honeymoon town was Garda).
Unless you are flying through PHL home from Venice is 2 flights to US, so Milan is your next best choice. You can do a circle to Milan through Florence or CT. & don't forget Milan as it's own destintation! We did 2 days there on our 2nd trip and wished we had a third.
Basically, our fist trip was our honeymoon and we were overly ambitious. Cut out one stop & add the 3 days throughout, you'll be much happier & relaxed.
I'm rambling on your post now, but I'd do:
Luzern 2
Venice 3
Florence 2
CT 3
Milan 2
Good luck! Happy planning & sorry to suggest you drop a locale or two - there's so much to see out there~!
(Or fly into/out of Milan and skip Luzern in favor of Stresa or another lake spot, our wonderful 1st honeymoon town was Garda).
Unless you are flying through PHL home from Venice is 2 flights to US, so Milan is your next best choice. You can do a circle to Milan through Florence or CT. & don't forget Milan as it's own destintation! We did 2 days there on our 2nd trip and wished we had a third.
Basically, our fist trip was our honeymoon and we were overly ambitious. Cut out one stop & add the 3 days throughout, you'll be much happier & relaxed.
I'm rambling on your post now, but I'd do:
Luzern 2
Venice 3
Florence 2
CT 3
Milan 2
Good luck! Happy planning & sorry to suggest you drop a locale or two - there's so much to see out there~!
Aug 6th, 2009, 03:41 PM
#16
You don't need a gown for the trip you describe and it will prove a huge hassle, I'm guessing.
You also don't need to use a night train. While they are a good option for some itineraries, they really don't work with yours. Most people don't truly get a great night's sleep on a train (even in a private cabin), so while I personally think they are fun, I wouldn't do one more than once per week.
You also don't need to use a night train. While they are a good option for some itineraries, they really don't work with yours. Most people don't truly get a great night's sleep on a train (even in a private cabin), so while I personally think they are fun, I wouldn't do one more than once per week.
Aug 7th, 2009, 03:29 PM
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Thank you all for the advice! We decided on the following:
Sun 11-Oct-2009 Depart from US
Mon 12 Oct-2009 Arrive in Lucerne (Luzern?), CH
Tue 13-Oct-2009 Lucerne (hike on first sunny day)
Wed 14-Oct-2009 Lucerne (otherwise explore town)
Thu 15-Oct-2009 Take train from Lucerne to Venice
Fri 16-Oct-2009 Venice
Sat 17-Oct-2009 Venice
Sun 18-Oct-2009 Train to Florence
Mon 19-Oct-2009 Florence/Museums
Tue 20-Oct-2009 Florence or Tuscany countryside
Wed 21-Oct-2009 Train to Rome
Thu 22-Oct-2009 Rome
Fri 23-Oct-2009 Rome
Sat 24-Oct-2009 Rome
Sun 25-Oct-2009 Fly from Rome to US (departing early in AM)
This plan gives us 3-4 days in each city and removes one less train trip. I think we will be a bit more relaxed and probably not run out of things to see or do.
Another point of confusion:
An acquaintance told us that tourists are an attraction for petty thieves and to leave our wedding bands at home or locked up in the hotel's safe. Is this something we should be concerned about? I would think that it would be a difficult thing for a pickpocket to slip off a wedding band and it not be noticed...
Sun 11-Oct-2009 Depart from US
Mon 12 Oct-2009 Arrive in Lucerne (Luzern?), CH
Tue 13-Oct-2009 Lucerne (hike on first sunny day)
Wed 14-Oct-2009 Lucerne (otherwise explore town)
Thu 15-Oct-2009 Take train from Lucerne to Venice
Fri 16-Oct-2009 Venice
Sat 17-Oct-2009 Venice
Sun 18-Oct-2009 Train to Florence
Mon 19-Oct-2009 Florence/Museums
Tue 20-Oct-2009 Florence or Tuscany countryside
Wed 21-Oct-2009 Train to Rome
Thu 22-Oct-2009 Rome
Fri 23-Oct-2009 Rome
Sat 24-Oct-2009 Rome
Sun 25-Oct-2009 Fly from Rome to US (departing early in AM)
This plan gives us 3-4 days in each city and removes one less train trip. I think we will be a bit more relaxed and probably not run out of things to see or do.
Another point of confusion:
An acquaintance told us that tourists are an attraction for petty thieves and to leave our wedding bands at home or locked up in the hotel's safe. Is this something we should be concerned about? I would think that it would be a difficult thing for a pickpocket to slip off a wedding band and it not be noticed...
Aug 7th, 2009, 04:50 PM
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Nice revision! I think this is a good mix of activities balanced with time to relax.
Many of the major museums in Florence are closed on Monday. Check opening times and be ready to adjust your plans while in Florence. If you plan to visit the Academia or Uffizi, you might have you hotel reserve tickets for you to save time waiting in line.
I don't think your weddings bands will be in peril. If you manage to wear them at home without them slipping off, I don't think you'll have anything to worry about in Italy.
Many of the major museums in Florence are closed on Monday. Check opening times and be ready to adjust your plans while in Florence. If you plan to visit the Academia or Uffizi, you might have you hotel reserve tickets for you to save time waiting in line.
I don't think your weddings bands will be in peril. If you manage to wear them at home without them slipping off, I don't think you'll have anything to worry about in Italy.
