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"Italian men in touch with their feminine side"

"Italian men in touch with their feminine side"

Jun 22nd, 2005, 03:05 PM
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"Italian men in touch with their feminine side"

artsfan is offline  
Jun 22nd, 2005, 03:27 PM
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I lost faith in the survey when I saw that they chose the following as the 11 "masculine" traits they were measuring:

winning, risk-taking, emotional control, violence, power over women, dominance, self-reliance, playboy, primacy of work, disdain for homosexuality and pursuit of status.

Violence, power over women, dominance, and distain for homosexuality make men more masculine???

It all sounds pretty stupid to me.
Patrick is offline  
Jun 22nd, 2005, 03:29 PM
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Didn't have time to read the article but it that because so many of them live with their mothers? I didn't say that just to be "smart". Saw a whole deal on that a couple of years ago on 20/20 or Dateline or one of those such programs. Guy living in..wasn't Naples..oh well doesn't matter..anyway, he sent his laundry by bus, home to his mother every couple of weeks. She would do it and ship it back.
crefloors is offline  
Jun 22nd, 2005, 04:32 PM
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Thank you, Patrick.
Travelnut is offline  
Jun 22nd, 2005, 05:27 PM
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Why is it that I suspect some of the people who determined the "traits" were, in fact, females, and big-haired ones at that?
Intrepid1 is offline  
Jun 22nd, 2005, 05:56 PM
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"Big hair. Big fun."

That's what I've always heard.

indytravel is offline  
Jun 22nd, 2005, 06:27 PM
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Sorry, Intrepid, but I think you missed this one. I see the survey was done by the University of Missouri, and I suspect the committee that chose the traits were a bunch of homophobic, violent, women beaters, who are proud of their "masculinity".
Patrick is offline  
Jun 22nd, 2005, 06:29 PM
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Actually those traits are pretty standard for the testoserone-fueled half of the human race.

In the increasingly female-value controlled western world, the traits are looked upon negatively, but they are the natural tendancies of most male human beings and can only be socially repressed to a limited degree. The most notable exceptions are certain isolated gene pools in which the male population has, on average, lower than average testosterone levels.

RufusTFirefly is offline  
Jun 22nd, 2005, 06:31 PM
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Forget to mention that, based on my experience and studies over the years, the one I would not agree with is "disdain" for homosexuality.
RufusTFirefly is offline  
Jun 22nd, 2005, 06:40 PM
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No, Creflors, nothing about living with Mama. Here's the gist of it:

"The only norm that Italian males endorsed significantly higher was the playboy norm which, according to the researchers, "supports the stereotype of the flirtatious and emotional Italian male vying for the attention of a woman."

Glenn Good, a professor of educational, school and counseling psychology who led the study, said he he was particularly surprised by the Italian males' lesser endorsement of disdain for homosexuals and power over women."

Not sure what point they are trying to prove with this survey. Italian men are not male chauvinist pigs? Who said they were?

Dreamer2 is offline  
Jun 22nd, 2005, 06:56 PM
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I guess the professor thought they were. The explanation I keep hearing for the low Italian birthrate is that the women say their partners don't pitch in, that they expect to be waited on hand and foot. Maybe Prof. Good was exploring that.

artsfan is offline  
Jun 22nd, 2005, 07:11 PM
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My husband read in the LA Times online recently an article about the low birthrate in Italy as being contributed to the VANITY of Italian women i.e. losing one's slender figure. Same article mentions that Italy leads Europe, if not the world, in cosmetic procedures performed! I'm a youthful/athletic female of 46 who is going to Italy in the fall who is now afraid of looking like an old hag cuz of not having my face done yet!
Katerbug is offline  
Jun 22nd, 2005, 07:14 PM
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Well the story I got in Italy regarding the low birthrate is that modern families are very child/family oriented and they want their child to have the best clothes, the best education, etc. Most families realized that they can't do that with a lot of children and they more often stick to just one or two at the most today.
Patrick is offline  
Jun 22nd, 2005, 08:36 PM
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After being married to a 100% Sicilian-Italian American (1st generation) for 20 plus years, all I can say is Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!

I have never seen any male in my Italian experience born before 1960 who helped with any aspect of child-rearing or household tasks. Somewhere they may exist but not in my vision. That is why I am so glad I had a German father, he was exactly the opposite. He did not have that cultural perception and is particularly a "baby holder".

It's is not by accident that most stores in the smallish towns in Italy that are numerously multiples are men's clothing stores. They dress. She does not give a fraction of the time and energy to that after marriage- she is way, way too busy. It's not just her choice, it's also the allocation of resources.

And by the way, Rufus is not incorrect.
And I would leave the disdain for the homosexual off as well because that's not the relevent feature at all.

Most patriarchal agricultural cultures, especially the Mediterranean ones, have valued male children over all else because of farm labor needed and family line economic continuence (only males inherit and also pass the name). China is another prime example of traditional rural agricultural patriarchy. Male traits are greatly prized and females ones hardly at all from this practice. Raising children, if they are daughters, may be considered a burden as their "use" is for another family's advancement eventually, while they are using up resources that they will not reciprocate growing up. And until that transfer of responsability for her to her husband, she can become a real liability in patriarchal "terms" if her "honor" is compromised. These things seem buried in the distant past, but leave very real relics behind in actual behaviors and choices for people in 2005.

Italy and other parts of Europe have very low birth rates and have for decades. Prime reasons are economic, but that is greatly coupled with job expection in child rearing itself. Once a mother, always a mother. Different rules. And there now exists a opposing dichotomy of ideals for the female role itself because of those mentioned remnants of former cultural carryover.

The Italian male role and expectations ideals, have hardly altered at all- during the years of Western female economic emergence.

Yes, it is a generalization. Studies are done on this all the time. Most personality studies a psychologist may use also test female/male traditional traits and characteristics. We all have both. Many male ones are highly bonded to testosterone levels.

I have never seen any of two dozen male Italian relatives of mine, here or in Europe, ever so much as get themselves a glass of water. I remember my Aunt being called in the kitchen from the yard to get him one. Really. And men, even in mixed groups, are almost always served first. I noticed that in 2002 in Rapallo by chance, and I made a joke about it. I don't think the server (female) got it.
JJ5 is offline  
Jun 23rd, 2005, 02:31 AM
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Patrick, thanks for elaborating on the background of the "study"....and as to "Big Hair-Big Fun".....in my case it would be "More Hair-Even Better Fun."
Intrepid1 is offline  
Jun 23rd, 2005, 02:44 AM
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JJ5,Sorry I am not trying to be rude I was brought up in the culture on the east coast ,My father held his children every night after work, he never spent alot of money on himself [clothes or woman etc], I find your comments off a bit.Your husband is Sicilian, we are half Sicilian. The people who are in my family have other shortcomings, such as as long as you do it there way they love you , but don,t cross them they NEVERFORGET. This topic could be reviewed in much greater length, alot of it may be how families grow up and association.You mentioned maybe you wern't exposed to seeing the other side of the Italian man .I do get your points on how the wifes pamper there guys I see that as a wife adoring her husband and wanting him to feel special.I also relieze thats good if the wife want to live like that . great topic
lilminkey is offline  
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