Is this Itinerary Doable? Switz/N.Italy
Feb 20th, 2005, 11:18 AM
#1
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Is this Itinerary Doable? Switz/N.Italy
I am still trying to work out my August trip to Switzerland. I can't decide if the itinerary I am building is reasonable or will I be moving so fast I won't enjoy anything.
3 nights: Wengen
1 night: Montreux
3 nights: Bellagio
(travel to Luzern by way of Bernina Express)
2 nights: Luzern
The biggest concern I have is the full day train travel from Bellagio to Luzern.
Is this too much?
3 nights: Wengen
1 night: Montreux
3 nights: Bellagio
(travel to Luzern by way of Bernina Express)
2 nights: Luzern
The biggest concern I have is the full day train travel from Bellagio to Luzern.
Is this too much?
Feb 20th, 2005, 12:33 PM
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I am curious and very interested in your trip. My big question is how do you get to and out of Bellagio?
I tried finding a train to Bellagio on the Swiss SBB website and on the Italian rail web site and nothing came up except an error.
If you go all the way to Luzern in one day, it is a long trip. But as the old saying goes, if you want to make an omlette you have to break some eggs.
The trip from Tirano to St. Moritz does not take but 2 hours and 23 minutes, which actually is slow because the train makes quite a few stops.
Once you get to St. Moritz, the trains to Luzern are frequent, but two changes of train are involved and the trip takes over 4 hours.
As a question, why not the William Tell Expreses? It includes a paddle steamer lake ride with some nice scenery.
Again, it looks like the big hurdle will be getting out of Bellagio to take a train elsewhere. I wish I knew what it was!!
I tried finding a train to Bellagio on the Swiss SBB website and on the Italian rail web site and nothing came up except an error.
If you go all the way to Luzern in one day, it is a long trip. But as the old saying goes, if you want to make an omlette you have to break some eggs.
The trip from Tirano to St. Moritz does not take but 2 hours and 23 minutes, which actually is slow because the train makes quite a few stops.
Once you get to St. Moritz, the trains to Luzern are frequent, but two changes of train are involved and the trip takes over 4 hours.
As a question, why not the William Tell Expreses? It includes a paddle steamer lake ride with some nice scenery.
Again, it looks like the big hurdle will be getting out of Bellagio to take a train elsewhere. I wish I knew what it was!!
Feb 21st, 2005, 01:14 AM
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Bob - Catching a train from Bellagio is no problem 
The nearest station is a short ferry ride away at Varenna. (From the dock it's a 5-10 min walk up to the station).
From there you can catch a direct train to Tirano to join the Bernina Express.
Steve
The nearest station is a short ferry ride away at Varenna. (From the dock it's a 5-10 min walk up to the station).
From there you can catch a direct train to Tirano to join the Bernina Express.
Steve
Feb 21st, 2005, 03:02 AM
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Steve is correct. The "issue" will be getting an early enough ferry to connect to an early enough train out of Varenna (depending on how long a day you want this to be). Trains to Tirano run about every two hours from Varenna so the service is faily frequent.
On the plus side you'll see some pretty spectacular scenery along the way.
You might want to check the schedules and timings by using the GermanRail site:
www.bahn.de and then click on "International Guests"
This trip will involve several changes but they are easily done. From St. Moritz you'd probably have to go to Chur and change there and then change again just before Zurich for a train to Luzern. It sounds very complicated but believe me, it is easy to do and worth the effort.
On the plus side you'll see some pretty spectacular scenery along the way.
You might want to check the schedules and timings by using the GermanRail site:
www.bahn.de and then click on "International Guests"
This trip will involve several changes but they are easily done. From St. Moritz you'd probably have to go to Chur and change there and then change again just before Zurich for a train to Luzern. It sounds very complicated but believe me, it is easy to do and worth the effort.
Feb 22nd, 2005, 03:34 AM
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Your other (earlier) message says you are taking the Bernina Express after Wengen. This message now says you are coming into Switzerland from Bellagio via the Bernina Express and going on to Lucerne. Can you lay out the full itinerary, including Italy, so I can comment. Also what cities are you flying in and out of.
I don't understand going all the way to Montreux from Wengen and then essentially doubling back to Bellagio and then back to Lucerne. A lot of east to west travelling. Wengen to Montreux takes 4 hours with at leat 3 changes. Montreux to Bellagio takes between 6-7 hours.
You may find it hard to get from Bellagio to Tirano in time to make the afternoon departure of either Bernina Express train. There was a post on this earlier and I recall that there was only about 10 minutes between the train arriving from the Como area and the departure of the latest Bernina Express train and many people, including me, thought this was cutting it too fine. The only other option was to take a train the night before and stay the night in Tirano, not the most attractive option (or town).
IMO, one night in the Montreux area is not enough and 2 nights in Lucerne is way too many, esp coming via Chur/Bernina Express which is a very long trip and you will essentially be back again in the Wengen/Interlaken area again.
In reading your earlier post and now this one, my thoughts are to take the Bernina only to or from Tirano - Pontresina, and take the "regular" Rhatische Bahn train to or from Chur, then you can overnight in Pontresina, a lovely area with great walks, and you can avoid Chur, which is nice but not nearly as pretty as the Pontresina area. (Pontresina is about 3 miles from St Moritz, you could take a Bernina Express train to or from either, I prefer Pontresina as a town to stay and vist in. Rhatische Bahn
operates both the Bernina Express and most trains in Graubuden Canton. Go to rhb.ch for schedules, the “regular” trains also show up on the rail.ch website.)
The “regular” Rhatische Bahn trains go on the same tracks as the Bernina Express from Chur to Pontresina, so you get the same view (for cheaper), and trains run much more frequently than the once a day Bernina Express. There are also several other nice little villages in like Filisur where you could stop for an overnight instead of Pontresina. I just took the train from Zurich to Pontresina this weekend and had forgotten how beautiful it is; the Chur to Pontresina portion is, IMO, the most gorgeous train ride in Switzerland, which has many gorgeous train rides.
I don't understand going all the way to Montreux from Wengen and then essentially doubling back to Bellagio and then back to Lucerne. A lot of east to west travelling. Wengen to Montreux takes 4 hours with at leat 3 changes. Montreux to Bellagio takes between 6-7 hours.
You may find it hard to get from Bellagio to Tirano in time to make the afternoon departure of either Bernina Express train. There was a post on this earlier and I recall that there was only about 10 minutes between the train arriving from the Como area and the departure of the latest Bernina Express train and many people, including me, thought this was cutting it too fine. The only other option was to take a train the night before and stay the night in Tirano, not the most attractive option (or town).
IMO, one night in the Montreux area is not enough and 2 nights in Lucerne is way too many, esp coming via Chur/Bernina Express which is a very long trip and you will essentially be back again in the Wengen/Interlaken area again.
In reading your earlier post and now this one, my thoughts are to take the Bernina only to or from Tirano - Pontresina, and take the "regular" Rhatische Bahn train to or from Chur, then you can overnight in Pontresina, a lovely area with great walks, and you can avoid Chur, which is nice but not nearly as pretty as the Pontresina area. (Pontresina is about 3 miles from St Moritz, you could take a Bernina Express train to or from either, I prefer Pontresina as a town to stay and vist in. Rhatische Bahn
operates both the Bernina Express and most trains in Graubuden Canton. Go to rhb.ch for schedules, the “regular” trains also show up on the rail.ch website.)
The “regular” Rhatische Bahn trains go on the same tracks as the Bernina Express from Chur to Pontresina, so you get the same view (for cheaper), and trains run much more frequently than the once a day Bernina Express. There are also several other nice little villages in like Filisur where you could stop for an overnight instead of Pontresina. I just took the train from Zurich to Pontresina this weekend and had forgotten how beautiful it is; the Chur to Pontresina portion is, IMO, the most gorgeous train ride in Switzerland, which has many gorgeous train rides.
Feb 22nd, 2005, 05:38 AM
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Cicerone-
My ideal trip would include all the destinations listed in the first post, but I only have 9 nights. So I keep fiddling with the itinerary to see if somehow I can reasonably make it work.
My ideal trip would include all the destinations listed in the first post, but I only have 9 nights. So I keep fiddling with the itinerary to see if somehow I can reasonably make it work.
Feb 22nd, 2005, 05:51 AM
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I am still confused. Your first post on January 24 2005 says you want to go to “Tuscany, Puglia, Dordogne, around Switzerland” in August.
Your January 29 post says you want to go in June and mentions “Arrive - Milan
Departure - Rome. Como (Lakes) 3 nights, Tuscany 3 nights, Rome 1 night”
Your February 1 post says you will fly in Zurich in August and “then head directly for Lucerne for one night. Next, 3 nights in the Berner Oberland. Ok, then what? I was thinking 1 night murten, 2 nights Montreux, return to Zurich OR Lugano 3 nights and back to Zurich.”
Your February 2, 2005 post is “My N. Italy itinerary for N. Italy and Switzerland is as follows:
Arrive: Milan Depart: Zurich, Bellagio (3 nghts), Wengen (3 nghts-Alpenrose),Luzern (2 nights-Wilden-Mann?)” in August.
What month is the trip? Where do you want to go?
Your January 29 post says you want to go in June and mentions “Arrive - Milan
Departure - Rome. Como (Lakes) 3 nights, Tuscany 3 nights, Rome 1 night”
Your February 1 post says you will fly in Zurich in August and “then head directly for Lucerne for one night. Next, 3 nights in the Berner Oberland. Ok, then what? I was thinking 1 night murten, 2 nights Montreux, return to Zurich OR Lugano 3 nights and back to Zurich.”
Your February 2, 2005 post is “My N. Italy itinerary for N. Italy and Switzerland is as follows:
Arrive: Milan Depart: Zurich, Bellagio (3 nghts), Wengen (3 nghts-Alpenrose),Luzern (2 nights-Wilden-Mann?)” in August.
What month is the trip? Where do you want to go?
Feb 22nd, 2005, 05:57 AM
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wsm211
What are your air gateways? If you fly into Milan (from which you commute relatively easily to Bellagio) and out of Zurich (or the other way around) your schedule might become somewhat more doable. I'd start with settling that problem.
A request - sticking to one thread for all of your questions about a given itinerary might help keep your would-be advisors from getting discombobulated and confused (okay, it will keep me from becoming discombobulated!) about what suggestions you've already received and rejected. If you click on your name, you can easily find this thread again. Best of luck with your plans.
What are your air gateways? If you fly into Milan (from which you commute relatively easily to Bellagio) and out of Zurich (or the other way around) your schedule might become somewhat more doable. I'd start with settling that problem.
A request - sticking to one thread for all of your questions about a given itinerary might help keep your would-be advisors from getting discombobulated and confused (okay, it will keep me from becoming discombobulated!) about what suggestions you've already received and rejected. If you click on your name, you can easily find this thread again. Best of luck with your plans.
Feb 22nd, 2005, 10:32 AM
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I am not sure why my last post didn't get applied, but, if this ends up being a duplicate, I apologize.
Cicerone, I am sorry for all the confusion. This is due to my inability to settle on a good plan. Hopefully, with time, I will become an experienced traveller and won't be quite so all over the place.
Sue, I will try to maintain my posts to this one.
I am planning this trip for August and have not made any airport arrangements. So, I can fly in/out of any city.
My latest itinerary idea is:
1 night Montreux
3 Wengen
1 Luzern
1 Chur
3 Bellagio
Fly in Geneva
Fly Out Milan
My biggest concern with this one is making it to the Milan airport in time if I am not able to book an afternoon flight.
No promises that this is the last version.
Thanks to everyone for your advice.
Cicerone, I am sorry for all the confusion. This is due to my inability to settle on a good plan. Hopefully, with time, I will become an experienced traveller and won't be quite so all over the place.
Sue, I will try to maintain my posts to this one.
I am planning this trip for August and have not made any airport arrangements. So, I can fly in/out of any city.
My latest itinerary idea is:
1 night Montreux
3 Wengen
1 Luzern
1 Chur
3 Bellagio
Fly in Geneva
Fly Out Milan
My biggest concern with this one is making it to the Milan airport in time if I am not able to book an afternoon flight.
No promises that this is the last version.
Thanks to everyone for your advice.
Feb 22nd, 2005, 01:04 PM
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Okay, here are my general itinerary rules, which can apply to wheresoever you wind up going.
1. Have a least a night at the departure gateway, or at least within an hour or so commute of the departure airport, whatever that turns out to be. Ideally pick a departure gateway where there is something of interest to you, but either way stick to this rule, at least for a first trip.
2. Keep the total commuting distance of your itinerary, as measured in hours between the departure and arrival gateways, to be no more than 1 to 1.25 times N, where N is the number of nights of your trip. So, ideally, you want to commute no more than 9 to 11 hours total for this trip. Use bahn.de or trenitalia.com or the swiss SBB railsite to get information about rail journey times.
3. Strive to keep your individual stops no longer than 3 or 4 hours apart max, if possible.
4. Remember that the shortest distance between two points is (usually) a straight line, so if you are tight on time, avoid itineraries with more complex shapes. Minimize turns and loops.
5. Design your first draft using these rules, then start monkeying around on the next drafts, as required. Good luck.
PS - Save yourself a lot of frustration, buy a good map of the area, eg 4 km to the cm (1/400,000 scale). Where there are super highways, there are usually major rail routes.
1. Have a least a night at the departure gateway, or at least within an hour or so commute of the departure airport, whatever that turns out to be. Ideally pick a departure gateway where there is something of interest to you, but either way stick to this rule, at least for a first trip.
2. Keep the total commuting distance of your itinerary, as measured in hours between the departure and arrival gateways, to be no more than 1 to 1.25 times N, where N is the number of nights of your trip. So, ideally, you want to commute no more than 9 to 11 hours total for this trip. Use bahn.de or trenitalia.com or the swiss SBB railsite to get information about rail journey times.
3. Strive to keep your individual stops no longer than 3 or 4 hours apart max, if possible.
4. Remember that the shortest distance between two points is (usually) a straight line, so if you are tight on time, avoid itineraries with more complex shapes. Minimize turns and loops.
5. Design your first draft using these rules, then start monkeying around on the next drafts, as required. Good luck.
PS - Save yourself a lot of frustration, buy a good map of the area, eg 4 km to the cm (1/400,000 scale). Where there are super highways, there are usually major rail routes.
Feb 22nd, 2005, 02:19 PM
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wsm,
I think your latest list is on the right track. I would suggest:
Fly into Geneva, overnight in Montreux. Stay over the next night (a good idea for jetlag anyway). So:
2 nights Montreux
2 nights Wengen
1 night Chur
3 nights Bellagio
1 night Lugano, fly out of Milan next morning.
You'd miss an overnight in Lucerne, but Lugano is a good substitute and is close to the airport.
BTW: Don't "insist" on a Bernina Pass "Express" dome car. The regular Bernina trains, IMHO, are more fun and you can roll the windows down for a better experience and better pics.
I think your latest list is on the right track. I would suggest:
Fly into Geneva, overnight in Montreux. Stay over the next night (a good idea for jetlag anyway). So:
2 nights Montreux
2 nights Wengen
1 night Chur
3 nights Bellagio
1 night Lugano, fly out of Milan next morning.
You'd miss an overnight in Lucerne, but Lugano is a good substitute and is close to the airport.
BTW: Don't "insist" on a Bernina Pass "Express" dome car. The regular Bernina trains, IMHO, are more fun and you can roll the windows down for a better experience and better pics.
Feb 24th, 2005, 01:01 AM
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I like metlc‘s proposed itinery, I would change it to skip Chur and go from Wengen (via Chur on the "regular" Rhatische Bahn trains) to Pontreisna, Cerelna or Samedan for a night intsead and do some walking. Then get the Bernina Express from Pontresina. See my message above.
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