Is covered shoulders/knees required for all churches in Italy?
Apr 12th, 2008, 05:47 AM
#41
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"I would never flaunt a rule, although on occasion, I have flouted them."
The second definition of flaunt in Random house is: "Nonstandard to treat with disdain; flout: flaunting military regulations."
Nonstandard but still understandable.
Regards, Gary
The second definition of flaunt in Random house is: "Nonstandard to treat with disdain; flout: flaunting military regulations."
Nonstandard but still understandable.
Regards, Gary
Apr 12th, 2008, 06:00 AM
#42
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I'm very secular and nonreligious actually, as I don't really even respect a lot of them nor what they do and many religions' beliefs nor practices, not to mention the evils perpetrated on earth due to religion. However, even I dress appropriately when visiting any cultural site based on what they want. It's their site, after all. I do think the Catholic church in certain Italian churches goes to far , as they impose rules for visits just sighseeing that don't exist in Catholic churches in other countries, even for services, but what can you do (the whole knees and upper arm thing), it's their rules and their building.
Now it isn't really that big an issue for me, which is why I also find these posts so odd -- I have no desire to be running around in shorts as a tourist in the city, and never do that anyway. Some people seem to have forgotten how to dress, I agree, as if nothing exists on earth to wear but sneakers, shorts, etc. Some women don't seem to know skirts exist. I much prefer skirts for comfort to pants and often shorts. They are a lot cooler and you don't have all that fabric between your legs.
What one wears in public and is considered appropriate wear in public and for strangers to view you (as well as certain occasions) is obvious cultural, and the idea that god made your (unmentionable part) so it is okay to parade that part in a church in front of others is very odd. What happened to modesty, you could take that remark to the extreme that one should walk around naked. Now of course, what is considered acceptable public wear would be different in some cultures outside developed nations, but that's the point. It is cultural.
However, someone above made complaints about people talking in Sainte Chappelle or laughing and chatting -- that isn't a working church, it's a historic monument. I don't know if it's ever been used for religious services since maybe the Revolution (when I think it was taken over, and then was used just as a library or archive building for a long time). If one visited it, one should have learned the history of the building and what it is today and what it is used for.
Now it isn't really that big an issue for me, which is why I also find these posts so odd -- I have no desire to be running around in shorts as a tourist in the city, and never do that anyway. Some people seem to have forgotten how to dress, I agree, as if nothing exists on earth to wear but sneakers, shorts, etc. Some women don't seem to know skirts exist. I much prefer skirts for comfort to pants and often shorts. They are a lot cooler and you don't have all that fabric between your legs.
What one wears in public and is considered appropriate wear in public and for strangers to view you (as well as certain occasions) is obvious cultural, and the idea that god made your (unmentionable part) so it is okay to parade that part in a church in front of others is very odd. What happened to modesty, you could take that remark to the extreme that one should walk around naked. Now of course, what is considered acceptable public wear would be different in some cultures outside developed nations, but that's the point. It is cultural.
However, someone above made complaints about people talking in Sainte Chappelle or laughing and chatting -- that isn't a working church, it's a historic monument. I don't know if it's ever been used for religious services since maybe the Revolution (when I think it was taken over, and then was used just as a library or archive building for a long time). If one visited it, one should have learned the history of the building and what it is today and what it is used for.
Apr 12th, 2008, 06:07 AM
#43
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Hi Lammom:
I always carry a wrap around skirt in a tote bag which if I choose to visit a church anywhere in Italy I can quickly wrap over my shorts. Generally, I wear a light tee shirt and again carry a light jacket or sweater along with a map and an umbrella, just in case it gets cold, rains, I get lost or want to visit a church. My husband wears light weight zip off pants so he can zip on, zip off as required.
Its out of respect and I surely would not like to turned away from viewing some of the world's most incredible art in any church or house of worship. So whether or not there is an attendant or gatekeeper I don my church viewing attire so not to offend any worshipers who may be inside.
I am a visitor and attempt to respect the culture of the country I am visiting. Though I did touch the fruit in Florence and was "told" no no. Live and learn or check Fodors before going.
I always carry a wrap around skirt in a tote bag which if I choose to visit a church anywhere in Italy I can quickly wrap over my shorts. Generally, I wear a light tee shirt and again carry a light jacket or sweater along with a map and an umbrella, just in case it gets cold, rains, I get lost or want to visit a church. My husband wears light weight zip off pants so he can zip on, zip off as required.
Its out of respect and I surely would not like to turned away from viewing some of the world's most incredible art in any church or house of worship. So whether or not there is an attendant or gatekeeper I don my church viewing attire so not to offend any worshipers who may be inside.
I am a visitor and attempt to respect the culture of the country I am visiting. Though I did touch the fruit in Florence and was "told" no no. Live and learn or check Fodors before going.
Apr 12th, 2008, 07:58 AM
#44
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<Well i would wear whatever i want into a cathedral, of course unless it weren't against civic law, much, as i would on the square outside the church
i agree church can dictate attire to enter - it's their property but if no rules posted then why not go in with what i'd wear outside the door?
Well i was talking about myself and what i would wear outside in the streets and did not make that clear - i would not be wearing anything provocative or naked, etc.
i am saying that street clothes, much like the legendary Jesus is said to have worn, should be find for the church as well - no head coverings, no shorts need be banned
whatever the ordinary attire on streets should be fine in church and why not is one of the many mysteries of faith in what seems to be trying to put churches and priests in their ridiculous garb above the common person
Again Jesus dressed in no such baffoonish atire like Panzer Pope does - i think the leader of the church should be dressed more like a carpenter and not some clown.
and i said in my post that if rules were posted i would honor them as the church, if not state property like in France, is private and can set their own rules about that and of course i'd honor them. But i've been in some that have no rules then it's fine to me to wear shorts, etc. Again what is so immoral about legs and shoulders bared?
Thinjorus says >Catholic women don't have to cover their heads nor do they have to cover their arms and legs.
I think you are still living in 1959, Pal.>
sorry i was under the impression that women had to cover their heads in these Italian churches to get in and not have bare legs or shoulders - was i wrong? Believe not
<Hi Paen q, I find a little far fetched to say that any requirement of the Catholic church, to-day, might even have a remote "talibanesque" flavor."
Well not in general but moral squads that roam Afghanistan streets making women and only women cover up their whole bodies are rather similar to these God squads at church doors in that respect - and again making women conform to stricter sartorial norms than men
I do always respect the rules of a church however, let me make that clear, if they are clearly posted so i see them
i agree church can dictate attire to enter - it's their property but if no rules posted then why not go in with what i'd wear outside the door?
Well i was talking about myself and what i would wear outside in the streets and did not make that clear - i would not be wearing anything provocative or naked, etc.
i am saying that street clothes, much like the legendary Jesus is said to have worn, should be find for the church as well - no head coverings, no shorts need be banned
whatever the ordinary attire on streets should be fine in church and why not is one of the many mysteries of faith in what seems to be trying to put churches and priests in their ridiculous garb above the common person
Again Jesus dressed in no such baffoonish atire like Panzer Pope does - i think the leader of the church should be dressed more like a carpenter and not some clown.
and i said in my post that if rules were posted i would honor them as the church, if not state property like in France, is private and can set their own rules about that and of course i'd honor them. But i've been in some that have no rules then it's fine to me to wear shorts, etc. Again what is so immoral about legs and shoulders bared?
Thinjorus says >Catholic women don't have to cover their heads nor do they have to cover their arms and legs.
I think you are still living in 1959, Pal.>
sorry i was under the impression that women had to cover their heads in these Italian churches to get in and not have bare legs or shoulders - was i wrong? Believe not
<Hi Paen q, I find a little far fetched to say that any requirement of the Catholic church, to-day, might even have a remote "talibanesque" flavor."
Well not in general but moral squads that roam Afghanistan streets making women and only women cover up their whole bodies are rather similar to these God squads at church doors in that respect - and again making women conform to stricter sartorial norms than men
I do always respect the rules of a church however, let me make that clear, if they are clearly posted so i see them
Apr 12th, 2008, 08:29 AM
#45
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PalenQ wrote: "I do always respect the rules of a church however, let me make that clear, if they are clearly posted so i see them"
That's being specious. If the rules are long-established and generally well-known, then there should be little need to post them. You, as a visitor, are trying to impose conditions on your host, and that is bad manners. It is incumbent on the guest to find out what is appropriate, and not on the host to spell it out and police it.
Consider the position of the priests and parishioners whose church it is: are they to set up their building for tourists, and subordinate its core function as a house of prayer? Be grateful that you are admitted; be further grateful if they furnish information to make a tourist visit more interesting; make a reasonable effort to understand what they expect of visitors and respect their wishes.
That's being specious. If the rules are long-established and generally well-known, then there should be little need to post them. You, as a visitor, are trying to impose conditions on your host, and that is bad manners. It is incumbent on the guest to find out what is appropriate, and not on the host to spell it out and police it.
Consider the position of the priests and parishioners whose church it is: are they to set up their building for tourists, and subordinate its core function as a house of prayer? Be grateful that you are admitted; be further grateful if they furnish information to make a tourist visit more interesting; make a reasonable effort to understand what they expect of visitors and respect their wishes.
Apr 12th, 2008, 08:34 AM
#46
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Padraig - i sincerely do not know what is the universal rule for church attire/behavior in Europe
could you please spell them out?
Are wearing shorts universally banned?
If not then how would i know if my shorts are offending the rules if not posted?
serious question.
would the rules be different in different regions?
what i'm saying is i think having a set of universally known rules may be hard for a casual tourists
what'a sin in Naples may not be a sin in Germanic northern Italy?
so give me a set of rules that you indicate are universal please so i can adhere to them
could you please spell them out?
Are wearing shorts universally banned?
If not then how would i know if my shorts are offending the rules if not posted?
serious question.
would the rules be different in different regions?
what i'm saying is i think having a set of universally known rules may be hard for a casual tourists
what'a sin in Naples may not be a sin in Germanic northern Italy?
so give me a set of rules that you indicate are universal please so i can adhere to them
Apr 12th, 2008, 08:46 AM
#47
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PalenQ, you continue to be specious. This discussion is about Italy, and the expectations of visitors to Italian churches have been described here (and in many other threads in this forum). You know, because you are not as stupid as you pretend to be in posing your question, that there is no universal rule for church attire in Europe.
Quit behaving like an ass.
Quit behaving like an ass.
Apr 12th, 2008, 08:50 AM
#48
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WWJD?
Toss the prostitutes or bare shoulder, bare haired women out or the folks with bared knees out
The obvious answer is NO
he would start ministering to them, etc.
one of the many baffling rules that vary so much from Christian religion to religion
I thought there were only one God so why does he emit so many differing rules - why does he speak in different tongues to different churches?
Ira said the rules are made by the deity.
Toss the prostitutes or bare shoulder, bare haired women out or the folks with bared knees out
The obvious answer is NO
he would start ministering to them, etc.
one of the many baffling rules that vary so much from Christian religion to religion
I thought there were only one God so why does he emit so many differing rules - why does he speak in different tongues to different churches?
Ira said the rules are made by the deity.
Apr 12th, 2008, 08:57 AM
#49
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If you are in a hole, stop digging,
This is nothing to do with theology.
Italian churches request a certain type of dress.
Nobody is forcing you to enter the church.
It is arrogant to question the rules.
If you don't like them, stay out of the church.
I hope that you would remove your shoes in a mosque or cover your head in a synagogue.
This is nothing to do with theology.
Italian churches request a certain type of dress.
Nobody is forcing you to enter the church.
It is arrogant to question the rules.
If you don't like them, stay out of the church.
I hope that you would remove your shoes in a mosque or cover your head in a synagogue.
Apr 12th, 2008, 09:02 AM
#50
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I told you i do respect the rules if i know them. Duh?
That i can't even question the rules is sadly a long problem with the Catholic Church and the Pope being infallible
this is why many Catholics are now 'recovering Catholics' and have left the church (birth control, abortion, etc.)
Really we are not supposed to question the rules? That's not right.
Again i obey the rules much like i do in restaurants or any establishment but i will question them.
I am surprised actually by your stance. Many Catholics are questioning the rules like on birth control, stem cell research, abortion, etc. and should in my opinion
you sound like you want a church that is a dictator with no discussion allowed!
That i can't even question the rules is sadly a long problem with the Catholic Church and the Pope being infallible
this is why many Catholics are now 'recovering Catholics' and have left the church (birth control, abortion, etc.)
Really we are not supposed to question the rules? That's not right.
Again i obey the rules much like i do in restaurants or any establishment but i will question them.
I am surprised actually by your stance. Many Catholics are questioning the rules like on birth control, stem cell research, abortion, etc. and should in my opinion
you sound like you want a church that is a dictator with no discussion allowed!
Apr 12th, 2008, 09:41 AM
#53
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PalenQ,
I enjoyed your post. I am catholic so I see your point of view. Just because many catholics question ideas doens't mean they are off base. Our faith is not a popularity contest, and if you think our current amercian culture is good or moral, I laugh at you.
Our church has it's problems, especially in our american culture- pro life, anti- death penality, anti- war in Iraq, anti-poverty, etc.... It doesn't quite work out.
Our current admin. supports pro life as does a lot of our county, but still puts to death inmates, engages in a war JPII called a immoral,unjust war, and a defeat for humanity.
Our church will find it's way, it always has, but knee jerk reactions are forgetable.
I enjoyed your post. I am catholic so I see your point of view. Just because many catholics question ideas doens't mean they are off base. Our faith is not a popularity contest, and if you think our current amercian culture is good or moral, I laugh at you.
Our church has it's problems, especially in our american culture- pro life, anti- death penality, anti- war in Iraq, anti-poverty, etc.... It doesn't quite work out.
Our current admin. supports pro life as does a lot of our county, but still puts to death inmates, engages in a war JPII called a immoral,unjust war, and a defeat for humanity.
Our church will find it's way, it always has, but knee jerk reactions are forgetable.
Apr 12th, 2008, 01:03 PM
#55
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PalenQ- you will know what the rules are because I assume you would buy a guidebook to Italy. All the guidebooks I have bought carry "warnings" about dress code in Italian churches - not American or English Catholic Churches, but the ones you will visit - in Italy.
If you don't want a guidebook perhaps you would visit a website like:
saintpetersbasilica.org
where this information is easily found-
"The Dress Code is strictly enforced at St. Peter's Basilica. No shorts, bare shoulders or miniskirts. This applies to both men and women. Even if you get through security, you will be turned away by the attendants at the door."
Yes, I know this addresses St. Peters only but believe me with a simple google search you will find lots of different sites emphasizing the dress code for Italian Churches, not just St. Peters.
And if you go to Italy clueless you will be one of the many clueless tourists who are turned away or purchase paper pants or a sarong (yes, there are vendors who do this).
If you don't want a guidebook perhaps you would visit a website like:
saintpetersbasilica.org
where this information is easily found-
"The Dress Code is strictly enforced at St. Peter's Basilica. No shorts, bare shoulders or miniskirts. This applies to both men and women. Even if you get through security, you will be turned away by the attendants at the door."
Yes, I know this addresses St. Peters only but believe me with a simple google search you will find lots of different sites emphasizing the dress code for Italian Churches, not just St. Peters.
And if you go to Italy clueless you will be one of the many clueless tourists who are turned away or purchase paper pants or a sarong (yes, there are vendors who do this).
Apr 12th, 2008, 01:12 PM
#56
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>The second definition of flaunt in Random house is: "Nonstandard to treat with disdain; flout: flaunting military regulations."
Nonstandard but still understandable.<
If "flaunt" meant "flout", we wouldn't have 2 different words, would we?
Just one more example of the general lessening of standards and intellectual laziness.
Nonstandard but still understandable.<
If "flaunt" meant "flout", we wouldn't have 2 different words, would we?
Just one more example of the general lessening of standards and intellectual laziness.
Apr 12th, 2008, 01:30 PM
#57
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'big' and 'large' are 2 words that mean the same thing, yet, they do both exist in the english language.
flaunt and flout seem to be synonymous in certain contexts...
(a more interesting discussion than church attire, even if it has nothing to do with travel
)
flaunt and flout seem to be synonymous in certain contexts...
(a more interesting discussion than church attire, even if it has nothing to do with travel
)
Apr 12th, 2008, 04:51 PM
#59
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St Chapelle may not function as a church anymore, but it is still santified ground, which means it is still considered a holy place.. which is why there are SIGNS that clearly state BE QUIET.. but too many d*mb *ss tourist think " I'm on holiday I can do what I want " nah nah nah, nah, boo boo!"
Its simple folks if you don't agree with the rules and have no respect for the institution at all, why , I mean, really why, do you bother to visit a church...there are many other old and significant places to sightsee. The Coliseum has no dress code,neither does Pompeii,, so quit your b*thching and stop thinking your whining about the church , the religion, the faithful versus the unfaithful, make even a teaspoon of difference, just makes you whiners.
PS I was raised Catholic, but am not longer Catholic,, I do not believe in the faith of the Catholic church,, BUT, I cover what needs to be covered and I don't whine or feel in any way shape or form that I am compromising , I am respecting others peoples wishes.
Its simple folks if you don't agree with the rules and have no respect for the institution at all, why , I mean, really why, do you bother to visit a church...there are many other old and significant places to sightsee. The Coliseum has no dress code,neither does Pompeii,, so quit your b*thching and stop thinking your whining about the church , the religion, the faithful versus the unfaithful, make even a teaspoon of difference, just makes you whiners.
PS I was raised Catholic, but am not longer Catholic,, I do not believe in the faith of the Catholic church,, BUT, I cover what needs to be covered and I don't whine or feel in any way shape or form that I am compromising , I am respecting others peoples wishes.
Apr 12th, 2008, 05:17 PM
#60
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It seems to me that a lot of people are missing the point.
What God would think (like you really know that), or your particular religious affiliation (or opinion of any religion) is immaterial.
The fact is that you are a visitor in a foreign country and are entering a place holy to a particular religion. IF you chose to do so you should have the decency to dress as the locals expect and it behave in a seemly manner. (Most religious institutions you will visit are still functional and it is totally inappropriate to ignore ongoing ceremonies, rush around, shriek at each other, and in any way interrupt the activities of the faithful.)
And yes, you should leave a contribution - either for the poor or for some sort of maintenance fund.
IF you choose not to behave respectfully, then simply stay out - there are many other places where you can dress/act as badly as you choose.
What God would think (like you really know that), or your particular religious affiliation (or opinion of any religion) is immaterial.
The fact is that you are a visitor in a foreign country and are entering a place holy to a particular religion. IF you chose to do so you should have the decency to dress as the locals expect and it behave in a seemly manner. (Most religious institutions you will visit are still functional and it is totally inappropriate to ignore ongoing ceremonies, rush around, shriek at each other, and in any way interrupt the activities of the faithful.)
And yes, you should leave a contribution - either for the poor or for some sort of maintenance fund.
IF you choose not to behave respectfully, then simply stay out - there are many other places where you can dress/act as badly as you choose.
