IRetiremenrt Fantasy-Italy
Jan 1st, 2017, 05:37 PM
#141
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Remembered browsing this thread last summer and wondered if the OP is any closer to settling on an area now that 2017 has arrived 
A place in Italy is a dream of ours too but we are still 7-10 years from purchasing (we wish to avoid a mortgage by buying outright), and we are an additional 10ish years out from being able to retire and use it for more than a quarter of a year.
We've vacationed in Italy close to a dozen times over the past 14 years. Mainly in the summer but also in November and in March/April. Montepulciano is the area that we've fallen for and find ourselves returning to year after year. We've begun to make friends there and when our children are just a bit older, I hope to take language courses at Il Sasso during our visits.
The biggest downside (to us) to the area we fell for is the price. Our estimate is that we will need upwards of 700,000E to buy a freestanding mid-size house house with 0.5-1 acre of garden that is within a short drive to Montepulciano proper. We are accountants and wish to avoid major renovations, so that limits the # of options and increases the price. And so... we continue to save, save, save. To visit as often as we can and at different times of year when our schedule permits. And to research all the "need to knows".
Anyway, any update from IDH?
A place in Italy is a dream of ours too but we are still 7-10 years from purchasing (we wish to avoid a mortgage by buying outright), and we are an additional 10ish years out from being able to retire and use it for more than a quarter of a year.
We've vacationed in Italy close to a dozen times over the past 14 years. Mainly in the summer but also in November and in March/April. Montepulciano is the area that we've fallen for and find ourselves returning to year after year. We've begun to make friends there and when our children are just a bit older, I hope to take language courses at Il Sasso during our visits.
The biggest downside (to us) to the area we fell for is the price. Our estimate is that we will need upwards of 700,000E to buy a freestanding mid-size house house with 0.5-1 acre of garden that is within a short drive to Montepulciano proper. We are accountants and wish to avoid major renovations, so that limits the # of options and increases the price. And so... we continue to save, save, save. To visit as often as we can and at different times of year when our schedule permits. And to research all the "need to knows"
.Anyway, any update from IDH?
Jan 2nd, 2017, 04:52 AM
#143
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700,000€ for a mid-size house???? Unbelievable. I guess Tuscany has become ever so more posh than the Dordogne.
At any price, though, it's great to be a few thousand miles away from the Orange Squirrel.
At any price, though, it's great to be a few thousand miles away from the Orange Squirrel.
Jan 2nd, 2017, 06:54 AM
#144
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The renting idea is the best advice I've see here so far. The only way I'd buy is if I was totally familiar with area, meaning I had already spent a lot of time there. It's nice get others' slants on an area, but you might hate what someone else loves.
But if you forced me to answer, I'd say Vicenza, as someone above did. Just big enough to be interesting, but not overwhelming. Good public transportation. Some tourists, but not swarms. No extremes in climate. Very walkable.
But if you forced me to answer, I'd say Vicenza, as someone above did. Just big enough to be interesting, but not overwhelming. Good public transportation. Some tourists, but not swarms. No extremes in climate. Very walkable.
Jan 2nd, 2017, 10:48 AM
#145
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Hi St.Cirq,
I know, right? The prices seem quite insane, but freestanding 3 BR houses within a short drive of the old city that have a bit of land, aren't located a stone's throw from busy roads, and don't need a complete reno are currently over 500,000E... so as we are still 7-10 years out from purchasing (we wish to purchase outright rather than assume a mortgage), assuming we need to aim for 700,000E doesn't seem too far fetched. Unfortunately!
We've spent time in Umbria and other less expensive areas of Tuscany (Maremma, etc.) and Lazio and Campania... and have enjoyed them all. But the area we truly fell in love with is the Montepulciano comune. And after years of 1-2x/annual visits, we have begun to know people there and keep in touch with them year-round. It's gotten hard to picture putting down roots elsewhere.
So... we save. On repeat.
As a side note, I hope you're doing well and wish you all the best in the New Year! I'm not on Fodors often these days due to the kids, but followed your wonderfully informative posts closely for many years.
I know, right? The prices seem quite insane, but freestanding 3 BR houses within a short drive of the old city that have a bit of land, aren't located a stone's throw from busy roads, and don't need a complete reno are currently over 500,000E... so as we are still 7-10 years out from purchasing (we wish to purchase outright rather than assume a mortgage), assuming we need to aim for 700,000E doesn't seem too far fetched. Unfortunately!
We've spent time in Umbria and other less expensive areas of Tuscany (Maremma, etc.) and Lazio and Campania... and have enjoyed them all. But the area we truly fell in love with is the Montepulciano comune. And after years of 1-2x/annual visits, we have begun to know people there and keep in touch with them year-round. It's gotten hard to picture putting down roots elsewhere.
So... we save. On repeat.
As a side note, I hope you're doing well and wish you all the best in the New Year! I'm not on Fodors often these days due to the kids, but followed your wonderfully informative posts closely for many years.
Jan 2nd, 2017, 11:27 AM
#146
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Hi, Texas Aggie.
Believe me, I I know what it is to fall in love with a particular place and just want to be there and nowhere else. I think I'd have a heart attack if I had to pay that to live in Europe, though. I'm ever so grateful I bought 25 years ago and everything is long since paid for (except the renovations, of course, but they're not so bad).
At any rate, my very best wishes for your plan going forward. I hope you find the same level of happiness (off the charts) that we have found living in the European countryside. You seem to have done your homework, so you'll be fine (though be prepared for some hurdles!).
Buon anno to you as well and hope all your plans come to fruition. We just got back from 10 days in Italy, and it is a lovely, lovely place. I really hope you get to realize your dream.
Believe me, I I know what it is to fall in love with a particular place and just want to be there and nowhere else. I think I'd have a heart attack if I had to pay that to live in Europe, though. I'm ever so grateful I bought 25 years ago and everything is long since paid for (except the renovations, of course, but they're not so bad).
At any rate, my very best wishes for your plan going forward. I hope you find the same level of happiness (off the charts) that we have found living in the European countryside. You seem to have done your homework, so you'll be fine (though be prepared for some hurdles!).
Buon anno to you as well and hope all your plans come to fruition. We just got back from 10 days in Italy, and it is a lovely, lovely place. I really hope you get to realize your dream.
Jan 2nd, 2017, 11:37 AM
#147
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I can't believe I forgot to write how much DH and I enjoyed Pisa. As with Orvieto, one just needs to get away from the main tourist area.
It has an airport and train station. Also a university and plenty of places to eat.
It has an airport and train station. Also a university and plenty of places to eat.
Jan 2nd, 2017, 01:22 PM
#148
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I really love the advice : 'what one loves, one might hate'.
I hate Pisa.
I find the city absolutely overrated, the tower doesn't appeal to me, it attracts too many tourists, the plazza is not charming, the church (cathedral ?) I find ugly...
Plus I hate the airport too.
On top of that I had accumulated bile that I put all on Pisa, totally undeserved from Pisa.
Then I later got one of my worst colds there.
I have been there dozens of times and have found some places in Pisa that I like but you would have to put a gun on my head for me to accept a house for free there.
On the pluses : I had a fantastic dinner along the seaside, I have great friends there, the weather is usually great.
So yes living in the area is a GREAT idea : we have several friends who bought houses in southern France (typical for Belgians ...) and a lot sold it several years after.
Main reason was that it is lovely in holiday but you get bored if you are used to living in a big city and end up in a small village.
And for my friends, language was not even an issue.
I hate Pisa.
I find the city absolutely overrated, the tower doesn't appeal to me, it attracts too many tourists, the plazza is not charming, the church (cathedral ?) I find ugly...
Plus I hate the airport too.
On top of that I had accumulated bile that I put all on Pisa, totally undeserved from Pisa.
Then I later got one of my worst colds there.
I have been there dozens of times and have found some places in Pisa that I like but you would have to put a gun on my head for me to accept a house for free there.
On the pluses : I had a fantastic dinner along the seaside, I have great friends there, the weather is usually great.
So yes living in the area is a GREAT idea : we have several friends who bought houses in southern France (typical for Belgians ...) and a lot sold it several years after.
Main reason was that it is lovely in holiday but you get bored if you are used to living in a big city and end up in a small village.
And for my friends, language was not even an issue.
Jan 3rd, 2017, 12:48 AM
#149
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Good to see the dream continues for all especially after a crappy day back at work after the ten day Christmas break where all I could think about was how I would love to be in Italy even though it is winter there and summer here.
Sadly it will remain a dream for us due to tax issues. I will just have to be satisfied with a three month visit every year.
Happy New Year to all.
Sadly it will remain a dream for us due to tax issues. I will just have to be satisfied with a three month visit every year.
Happy New Year to all.
Jan 3rd, 2017, 08:47 PM
#150
Oh I am enjoying reviewing this thread and reliving the dream as well. I hope those considering the move will keep us posted!
I also wondered about Orvieto for Imdonehere.
My friend is still going back and forth with the building owner in Impruneta. I am in no hurry since I would also like to save and buy my small portion of it outright if we go forward.
That said...just renting a villa for a month here and there makes more sense, but then this dream is anything but sensible!
I also wondered about Orvieto for Imdonehere.
My friend is still going back and forth with the building owner in Impruneta. I am in no hurry since I would also like to save and buy my small portion of it outright if we go forward.
That said...just renting a villa for a month here and there makes more sense, but then this dream is anything but sensible!
Jan 4th, 2017, 08:10 AM
#152
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Thank you all again for the suggestions and your interest. We wish to see where the American economy is headed, as that is our source of money. We are a bit unsettled by the election and at present are not prepared for a major change.
Jan 7th, 2017, 02:17 PM
#153
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I've collected a lot of info over the years about retirement visas for Italy and other European countries.
Buying property sounds like an ordeal but I recall seeing one or two HHI episodes where the broker not only helped with the purchase but managed the renovations. Or put the buyer in touch with a developer who spoke English.
I've seen realtors who specialize in walking English-speaking clients through the purchase and renovations process.
I hadn't heard that you could buy into the health care system.
But what gave me pause was that even as a permanent resident (a status you could achieve by renewing visas every year for a few years), your US retirement income and assets could be subject to taxation in Italy or whatever EU country as well as the US treasury. Also state income taxes too.
Yeah I could see trying it out as a rental for about a year. Could be hassle with getting utilities set up for a foreigner who may stay no more than a year.
But if it's possible, I'd probably want to be near an airport to explore other parts of Europe.
Buying property sounds like an ordeal but I recall seeing one or two HHI episodes where the broker not only helped with the purchase but managed the renovations. Or put the buyer in touch with a developer who spoke English.
I've seen realtors who specialize in walking English-speaking clients through the purchase and renovations process.
I hadn't heard that you could buy into the health care system.
But what gave me pause was that even as a permanent resident (a status you could achieve by renewing visas every year for a few years), your US retirement income and assets could be subject to taxation in Italy or whatever EU country as well as the US treasury. Also state income taxes too.
Yeah I could see trying it out as a rental for about a year. Could be hassle with getting utilities set up for a foreigner who may stay no more than a year.
But if it's possible, I'd probably want to be near an airport to explore other parts of Europe.
Jan 7th, 2017, 02:50 PM
#154
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The last thing I would do is rely on HHI or realtors who specialize in walking English-speaking clients through the "process." Learn Italian and study Italian real estate law.
Otherwise you're just a furriner with money to burn.
Otherwise you're just a furriner with money to burn.
Jan 8th, 2017, 02:56 PM
#156
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Well if Americans had to learn foreign languages and laws first, they'd never buy real estate.
Just saw an episode in Calitri, where an elderly couple from Colorado moved, because they had visited and loved the place. It was where her family came from.
Calitri is a small town in Campania. I think they said the population was around 4000. It had suffered an earthquake in the '80s and a lot of the natives abandoned the center, kind of like what is happening with more recent earthquake in other remote towns.
But it drew an expat population which bought and renovated in the borgo.
Some of these towns seem to actively market real estate to foreign buyers, since the natives couldn't make a living in them.
Just saw an episode in Calitri, where an elderly couple from Colorado moved, because they had visited and loved the place. It was where her family came from.
Calitri is a small town in Campania. I think they said the population was around 4000. It had suffered an earthquake in the '80s and a lot of the natives abandoned the center, kind of like what is happening with more recent earthquake in other remote towns.
But it drew an expat population which bought and renovated in the borgo.
Some of these towns seem to actively market real estate to foreign buyers, since the natives couldn't make a living in them.
Jan 8th, 2017, 08:34 PM
#157
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What a funny idea to learn Italian real estate law! I mean, seriously. Do people in America who buy houses know real estate law? You don't hire a lawyer?
Again, I have not read this entire thread, and since the person who started it now says they are no longer pursuing it, don't see the point. But anybody else considering it even as a pipe dream should take it seriously that the euro may not be long for this world, especially not in Italy (or France). If you sign a contract in euros, or pay euros in cash for a house, you could end up losing a lot of money. By 2019 the situation should be at least somewhat clearer.
Again, I have not read this entire thread, and since the person who started it now says they are no longer pursuing it, don't see the point. But anybody else considering it even as a pipe dream should take it seriously that the euro may not be long for this world, especially not in Italy (or France). If you sign a contract in euros, or pay euros in cash for a house, you could end up losing a lot of money. By 2019 the situation should be at least somewhat clearer.
Jan 8th, 2017, 09:25 PM
#158
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I went through the process of buying an apartment in Garmisch-Partenkirchen in 2010, without knowing German. I then even renovated the apartment -- new floors, new kitchen, new bathroom -- again without knowing German. I had been living in Germany for about a year when I bought, and one of my new German friends was a wonderful help with translating. Both the real estate agent and the notary public (no lawyers, but notaries here in Germany are pretty much lawyers) spoke excellent English.
In Germany, retirement income is NOT double-taxed. There is a reciprocal agreement between Germany and the US where American ex-pats can decide one time which country's taxation to fall under. So it's not true that " . . . as a permanent resident (a status you could achieve by renewing visas every year for a few years), your US retirement income and assets could be subject to taxation in Italy or whatever EU country as well as the US treasury. Also state income taxes too." That may well be true in Italy, but it's not so in all EU.
I've found that it's not necessary to fly to explore Europe -- I take the trains almost everywhere, and it's worked well for seeing France, Italy, Switzerland, & Austria.
s
In Germany, retirement income is NOT double-taxed. There is a reciprocal agreement between Germany and the US where American ex-pats can decide one time which country's taxation to fall under. So it's not true that " . . . as a permanent resident (a status you could achieve by renewing visas every year for a few years), your US retirement income and assets could be subject to taxation in Italy or whatever EU country as well as the US treasury. Also state income taxes too." That may well be true in Italy, but it's not so in all EU.
I've found that it's not necessary to fly to explore Europe -- I take the trains almost everywhere, and it's worked well for seeing France, Italy, Switzerland, & Austria.
s
Jan 8th, 2017, 11:39 PM
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Good points swandav.
Supposedly though Italy has more bureaucratic red tape than other EU states.
I have to admit I haven't heavily researched the tax issues that closely.
Can you retain US citizenship without keeping legal residency in one of the states, which would subject you to state taxes?
This year, I've already booked 3 flights to Europe, to visit different places. Maybe some day I'll look to stay longer so I won't have to fly back and forth across the ocean, though some of the activity is about earning and using miles.
Supposedly though Italy has more bureaucratic red tape than other EU states.
I have to admit I haven't heavily researched the tax issues that closely.
Can you retain US citizenship without keeping legal residency in one of the states, which would subject you to state taxes?
This year, I've already booked 3 flights to Europe, to visit different places. Maybe some day I'll look to stay longer so I won't have to fly back and forth across the ocean, though some of the activity is about earning and using miles.
Jan 9th, 2017, 03:38 AM
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Hi scrb11,
Yes, of course you retain US citizenship as an ex-pat; thousands of people do it all over the world. You would only have to renounce your citizenship if you took citizenship from another country. I have no legal residence in the US. The only small glitch is that I use my cousin's address in my former state when I send in my absentee ballot to vote.
s
Yes, of course you retain US citizenship as an ex-pat; thousands of people do it all over the world. You would only have to renounce your citizenship if you took citizenship from another country. I have no legal residence in the US. The only small glitch is that I use my cousin's address in my former state when I send in my absentee ballot to vote.
s
