Ideas for South of France, Italy - 3 weeks Driving Trip in Dec 2011
Nov 20th, 2011, 07:13 PM
#42
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Hi Zeppole - thank you for your cautionary advice.
After considering all the factors, we have decided that we are going ahead with the trip - will treat this is a recce for another trip in the summer time
.
In understand that the snowstorms are a possibility but again from what I have read, they are not a "certainty". There is a small chance that I might get stuck somewhere for 2-3 days due to a bad snowstorm - I will treat that as part of the trip.
While we are planning to make bookings form most of the places in advance, I am ok if we miss out some part due to e weather and have to extend our stay in one of the places we are at.
Will definitely keep an eye out on the weather channels/websites.
I am taking a train from Rome to Milan for return - so that should be fine. As far as landing in Milan and driving is considered, it should be fine - we will keep an eye out on the weather. If it is ok then we will proceed else will get into a hotel in Milan.
Thanks again for all the tips and advice.
After considering all the factors, we have decided that we are going ahead with the trip - will treat this is a recce for another trip in the summer time
. In understand that the snowstorms are a possibility but again from what I have read, they are not a "certainty". There is a small chance that I might get stuck somewhere for 2-3 days due to a bad snowstorm - I will treat that as part of the trip.
While we are planning to make bookings form most of the places in advance, I am ok if we miss out some part due to e weather and have to extend our stay in one of the places we are at.
Will definitely keep an eye out on the weather channels/websites.
I am taking a train from Rome to Milan for return - so that should be fine. As far as landing in Milan and driving is considered, it should be fine - we will keep an eye out on the weather. If it is ok then we will proceed else will get into a hotel in Milan.
Thanks again for all the tips and advice.
Nov 20th, 2011, 07:28 PM
#43
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Thank you or your responses. My plan is becoming more concrete:
16th Dec Morning - 8:15 AM land in Milan and pick up the car
16th Dec - morning - Drive from Milan to Parc National des Écrins- stay somewhere near Briancon/Ailefroide or even Gap. This one is a if else kind of thing - wanted to really drive through some of the highest roads in the French Alps (after doing the Himalayas - where at he @12-17,000 feet, most of the roads are practically dirt tracks with no guard rails - frequent landslides make it difficult to maintain a tarred surface). We will attempt this route only if the weather is perfect, else will go through the more traditional route. If the weather has really closed in then will stay in Milan itself.
17th - Arles - Drive to Arles, see Arles
18th - Arles - Provence area
19th - Arles - Provence area
20th - Nice - Around Nice
21st - Nice - Around Nice
22nd - Nice - Around Nice
23rd Lucca - Drive to Lucca - maybe see Portofino on the way
24th Lucca - If weather good and some trails open then do a day trip for hiking in Cinque Terre
25th and 26th Some other town(s) in Tuscany - Montalcino/Orvieto
27th Sorrento (A small hike on Vesuvius on the way?)
28th Sorrento - Amalfi coast drive
29th Sorrento (Pompeii?)
30th Rome - leave car in Sorrento and take a train
31st Rome
1st Rome first half, take a late afternoon train to Milan
2nd return flight from Rome
We plan to take many of the 1/2 to 1 day drives Stu has suggested in his detailed itinerary - Thanks Stu!
Again lot of this plan will depend on good weather - if weather is bad - we will tuck-in and drop parts of the trip.
A few questions:
1. Any suggestions for staying in/near Briancon or even Gap?
2. Recommendations for hotels (mid to high end $200-$400 range)
3. Would love some recommendations for short hikes (1-3 hours) along the above route (or even some detours). Without having actually experiencing it, I wouldn't mind braving the Mistral as long as there is a sunny blue sky! Then again, if the wind it anything like the one we experienced in Cape of Good Hope last December where even standing was difficult then might do a rethink on the above statement - though even there we did manage some hiking as the skies were glorious blues.
Thanks again for the help!
16th Dec Morning - 8:15 AM land in Milan and pick up the car
16th Dec - morning - Drive from Milan to Parc National des Écrins- stay somewhere near Briancon/Ailefroide or even Gap. This one is a if else kind of thing - wanted to really drive through some of the highest roads in the French Alps (after doing the Himalayas - where at he @12-17,000 feet, most of the roads are practically dirt tracks with no guard rails - frequent landslides make it difficult to maintain a tarred surface). We will attempt this route only if the weather is perfect, else will go through the more traditional route. If the weather has really closed in then will stay in Milan itself.
17th - Arles - Drive to Arles, see Arles
18th - Arles - Provence area
19th - Arles - Provence area
20th - Nice - Around Nice
21st - Nice - Around Nice
22nd - Nice - Around Nice
23rd Lucca - Drive to Lucca - maybe see Portofino on the way
24th Lucca - If weather good and some trails open then do a day trip for hiking in Cinque Terre
25th and 26th Some other town(s) in Tuscany - Montalcino/Orvieto
27th Sorrento (A small hike on Vesuvius on the way?)
28th Sorrento - Amalfi coast drive
29th Sorrento (Pompeii?)
30th Rome - leave car in Sorrento and take a train
31st Rome
1st Rome first half, take a late afternoon train to Milan
2nd return flight from Rome
We plan to take many of the 1/2 to 1 day drives Stu has suggested in his detailed itinerary - Thanks Stu!
Again lot of this plan will depend on good weather - if weather is bad - we will tuck-in and drop parts of the trip.
A few questions:
1. Any suggestions for staying in/near Briancon or even Gap?
2. Recommendations for hotels (mid to high end $200-$400 range)
3. Would love some recommendations for short hikes (1-3 hours) along the above route (or even some detours). Without having actually experiencing it, I wouldn't mind braving the Mistral as long as there is a sunny blue sky! Then again, if the wind it anything like the one we experienced in Cape of Good Hope last December where even standing was difficult then might do a rethink on the above statement - though even there we did manage some hiking as the skies were glorious blues.
Thanks again for the help!
Nov 20th, 2011, 07:29 PM
#44
<B>zeppole:</B> "<i>that people went to the trouble of getting my advice about the weather and traveling with such a small child in mid-to-late December removed so that the OP couldn't see it.</i>"
No one except the editors can remove posts -- either for advertising (which you don't do) or for attacking others --which you continually DO
"<i>I really don't know what to say to you for taking down my post or egging Stu Dudley on in this. . . . The moderators of Fodor's are being contacted to have my posts taken down because --- why</i>"
Why? See above . . .
"<i>Stu, if you are the one who got my post removed, man up and confess . . .</i>"
Once again, Stu can't get a post removed.
"<i>People should really not be allowed to wheedle Fodor's moderators into taking down posts . . . just to protect Stu's feelings.</i>"
Nope -- a post is not taken down <u>unless</u> it breaks the rules/guidelines.
No one except the editors can remove posts -- either for advertising (which you don't do) or for attacking others --which you continually DO
"<i>I really don't know what to say to you for taking down my post or egging Stu Dudley on in this. . . . The moderators of Fodor's are being contacted to have my posts taken down because --- why</i>"
Why? See above . . .
"<i>Stu, if you are the one who got my post removed, man up and confess . . .</i>"
Once again, Stu can't get a post removed.
"<i>People should really not be allowed to wheedle Fodor's moderators into taking down posts . . . just to protect Stu's feelings.</i>"
Nope -- a post is not taken down <u>unless</u> it breaks the rules/guidelines.
Nov 20th, 2011, 08:48 PM
#45
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Last year we spent a week in Briancon and a week in Enbrum (close to Gap). We were there in early July. We stayed in a Gite in Embrun which also has several very nice B&Bs. Tomorrow morning (here in Calif), I'll look up the web site of the place in Enbrum & post it here.
Beautiful area.
Stu Dudley
Beautiful area.
Stu Dudley
Nov 21st, 2011, 04:31 AM
#46
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This was posted one week ago on blog written by a person living in Tuscany who owns a horse farm.
"Last night the newsreader declared that this winter, we should expect one of the coldest on record. After an extreme summer, we are now set to have an extreme winter, with snow and ice - and lots of the famous Tuscan rain.
"The landscape quickly turns from dry,hard dirt to sticky mud, and the fields after a day of rain already look unpassable. Many of the CAI trails around Volterra are dirt roads, not just any dirt either - but volcanic tuffo mud, which turns into a type of clay when wet. When we arrived in Montaione two years ago, we would often find hunters trucks stuck along the trail to Castelfalfi. The only way to get these trucks out was a tractor - and I remember that we stopped using the trails due to all the shoes pulled.
"I succumbed to rugging the horses last night. I do try to keep them living as 'natural' as possible, and since they do have a field shelter, and the weather has not been too bad up until now; the rugs seems unnecessary. Last night a lively storm near Volterra convinced me otherwise, and in the dark I pulled out smelly winter rugs that haven't been used since March."
http://chiantitrails.blogspot.com/20...rings-its.html
People who live in Italy year-round actually do know more about the weather and the driving hazards it produces when it is wet or icy. We urge people visiting in winter to be cautious and drive only as weather permits, and not lock themselves into a "if this is Tuesay it must be Lucca, if it is Thursday is must be Volterra" --- type itinerary.
As another person living in Provence wrote on Tripadvisor about December driving conditions: "If the weather is nice, it is wonderful, but if the weather is bad, it is TERRIBLE." And that goes double in Tuscany, where so many roads are dirt roads and exceptionally twisty, swerving through low valleys with unexpected patches of fog or up hillsides with unexpected patches of ice.
"Last night the newsreader declared that this winter, we should expect one of the coldest on record. After an extreme summer, we are now set to have an extreme winter, with snow and ice - and lots of the famous Tuscan rain.
"The landscape quickly turns from dry,hard dirt to sticky mud, and the fields after a day of rain already look unpassable. Many of the CAI trails around Volterra are dirt roads, not just any dirt either - but volcanic tuffo mud, which turns into a type of clay when wet. When we arrived in Montaione two years ago, we would often find hunters trucks stuck along the trail to Castelfalfi. The only way to get these trucks out was a tractor - and I remember that we stopped using the trails due to all the shoes pulled.
"I succumbed to rugging the horses last night. I do try to keep them living as 'natural' as possible, and since they do have a field shelter, and the weather has not been too bad up until now; the rugs seems unnecessary. Last night a lively storm near Volterra convinced me otherwise, and in the dark I pulled out smelly winter rugs that haven't been used since March."
http://chiantitrails.blogspot.com/20...rings-its.html
People who live in Italy year-round actually do know more about the weather and the driving hazards it produces when it is wet or icy. We urge people visiting in winter to be cautious and drive only as weather permits, and not lock themselves into a "if this is Tuesay it must be Lucca, if it is Thursday is must be Volterra" --- type itinerary.
As another person living in Provence wrote on Tripadvisor about December driving conditions: "If the weather is nice, it is wonderful, but if the weather is bad, it is TERRIBLE." And that goes double in Tuscany, where so many roads are dirt roads and exceptionally twisty, swerving through low valleys with unexpected patches of fog or up hillsides with unexpected patches of ice.
Nov 21st, 2011, 07:51 AM
#47
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zeppole, as you can see by the earlier responses, others -- including Stu -- have tried to persuade the OP to slow down and not insist on so many far-flung destinations. But he is determined.
No one has yet pointed out that starting out on a long, difficult drive immediately after a long, nighttime, 4+-time-zone flight is a very bad idea. Practically suicidal/homicidal. But I'm sure he will ignore that quibble also.
One wonders why he asks for advice if he's determined not to take it.
No one has yet pointed out that starting out on a long, difficult drive immediately after a long, nighttime, 4+-time-zone flight is a very bad idea. Practically suicidal/homicidal. But I'm sure he will ignore that quibble also.
One wonders why he asks for advice if he's determined not to take it.
Nov 21st, 2011, 08:20 AM
#48
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Zeppole,
You have done your best. Unfortunately, when people are bent on doing something, they don't really want opinions. They want agreement with their idea or plan. How often do you see people doing things that are not a good idea? All the time! Luckily, for most, things turn out ok, and they can say it was nothing and poo poo all the caution. Of course, when things go wrong, they mostly don't tell you.
Since I didn't see your other post, I don't know the issue, but Stu seems to be a nice guy, and I am sure he had nothing to do with your post being removed. He is just trying to help the OP do what he is going to do anyway.
Per all your advice: We were caught in horrible weather last December in Milan and Ireland, with flights diverted and lots of people stranded. We were lucky to have traveled enough to forsee the situation and find ways around most of it, but many were caught in it. For the sake of their child, I hope all goes well with the OP. Like I said, you did your best, and so, by the way, has Stu.
You have done your best. Unfortunately, when people are bent on doing something, they don't really want opinions. They want agreement with their idea or plan. How often do you see people doing things that are not a good idea? All the time! Luckily, for most, things turn out ok, and they can say it was nothing and poo poo all the caution. Of course, when things go wrong, they mostly don't tell you.
Since I didn't see your other post, I don't know the issue, but Stu seems to be a nice guy, and I am sure he had nothing to do with your post being removed. He is just trying to help the OP do what he is going to do anyway.
Per all your advice: We were caught in horrible weather last December in Milan and Ireland, with flights diverted and lots of people stranded. We were lucky to have traveled enough to forsee the situation and find ways around most of it, but many were caught in it. For the sake of their child, I hope all goes well with the OP. Like I said, you did your best, and so, by the way, has Stu.
Nov 21st, 2011, 08:58 AM
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gragusha
On rethinking my suggestion about Embrun, I believe that it would be best for you to "keep loose" and just see what the conditions are when/if you get to Briancon - and then determine where you want to stay. This is a major ski area, and there are lots & lots of ski lodges lining the N94 from Italy and also on the D1091 northwest of Briancon. I don't recall seeing many south of Briancon on the N94. The B&B/Gite where we stayed in Embrun was very nice (we've stayed in 43 gites for 74 weeks throughout France) but there is some time-consuming overhead to check in/out of B&Bs (compared to regular hotels), and you don't have much spare time available, IMO.
Stu Dudley
On rethinking my suggestion about Embrun, I believe that it would be best for you to "keep loose" and just see what the conditions are when/if you get to Briancon - and then determine where you want to stay. This is a major ski area, and there are lots & lots of ski lodges lining the N94 from Italy and also on the D1091 northwest of Briancon. I don't recall seeing many south of Briancon on the N94. The B&B/Gite where we stayed in Embrun was very nice (we've stayed in 43 gites for 74 weeks throughout France) but there is some time-consuming overhead to check in/out of B&Bs (compared to regular hotels), and you don't have much spare time available, IMO.
Stu Dudley
Nov 21st, 2011, 09:10 AM
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I wonder what kind of car the OP is renting to drive in potential snow conditions. Sunny days will improve visibility but road conditions can still be questionable. I would not choose to go to Briançon in the winter unless I wanted to ski.
Nov 21st, 2011, 10:13 AM
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>>23rd Lucca - Drive to Lucca - maybe see Portofino on the way
24th Lucca - If weather good and some trails open then do a day trip for hiking in Cinque Terre<<
I watched a Rick Steves video about the CT last week (or week before). Rick was actually at our local PBS station & commented on "things" between episodes. He said that the two end villages on the CT were still digging out from the mud - and that he was encouraging people to donate funds to pay for the "digging".
>>25th and 26th Some other town(s) in Tuscany - Montalcino/Orvieto<<
If you want to do some of the beautiful walks in the Val d'Orcia, Orvieto is too far away, IMO. It is about a 1 1/4 hr drive between Orvieto & Pienza - so that is 2 1/2 hrs of driving to/from the Val d'Orcia. Montalcino is closer - but I think Pienza & Montepulciano are more interesting villages, and San Quirico has more of a "real village" atmosphere than the others.
Here is where I would stay in San Quirico:
http://www.palazzodelcapitano.com/en/index.php
Ask for one of the suites.
Of course, if you use Orvieto as your base, you are closer to Sorrento, which would cut down on your looooong/boring 5+ hr freeway drive the next day.
If this was my trip, I would not deviate to the CT - too many "questionable" things might occur (mud/rain/etc). I would stay close to Florence & Siena, and if you get some rain or perhaps some snow in this area that might impede your driving - Siena or Florence would be perfect places spend some time.
Stu Dudley
24th Lucca - If weather good and some trails open then do a day trip for hiking in Cinque Terre<<
I watched a Rick Steves video about the CT last week (or week before). Rick was actually at our local PBS station & commented on "things" between episodes. He said that the two end villages on the CT were still digging out from the mud - and that he was encouraging people to donate funds to pay for the "digging".
>>25th and 26th Some other town(s) in Tuscany - Montalcino/Orvieto<<
If you want to do some of the beautiful walks in the Val d'Orcia, Orvieto is too far away, IMO. It is about a 1 1/4 hr drive between Orvieto & Pienza - so that is 2 1/2 hrs of driving to/from the Val d'Orcia. Montalcino is closer - but I think Pienza & Montepulciano are more interesting villages, and San Quirico has more of a "real village" atmosphere than the others.
Here is where I would stay in San Quirico:
http://www.palazzodelcapitano.com/en/index.php
Ask for one of the suites.
Of course, if you use Orvieto as your base, you are closer to Sorrento, which would cut down on your looooong/boring 5+ hr freeway drive the next day.
If this was my trip, I would not deviate to the CT - too many "questionable" things might occur (mud/rain/etc). I would stay close to Florence & Siena, and if you get some rain or perhaps some snow in this area that might impede your driving - Siena or Florence would be perfect places spend some time.
Stu Dudley
Nov 21st, 2011, 10:39 PM
#52
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Thanks Stu - will plan to stay in San Quirico. I understand about CT - if weather permits, will do the Riomaggiore to Manarola ("Via dell'Amore").
While I am planning a detailed itinerary, I am also assuming that we might possibly get stuck due to bad weather and will have drop sections of the itinerary altogether. The longest driving I will do on a 3 of the days is about 4 hours - on remaining days, driving will be between 2 and 3 hours.
I can see other posters' concerns about the weather and my driving itinerary and I am getting the distinct impression that people think that I am foolish for planning this trip.
I am not sure how to interpret some of the suggestions:
a. is the suggestion here that I drop the idea of travelling to South of France and Italy in the 2nd half of December in a car because that is foolish?
b. or is the suggestion that don't plan anything - check the weather and then decide to do whatever is feasible?
Again, I am not planning to stick to the itinerary come hail or storm! What I am trying to do here is have a detailed plan for what I want to see, towns I want to travel to, routes and distances. If weather is not favourable then I plan to either improvise or drop parts of the itinerary altogether.
I really appreciate all the effort people put in giving the feedback and suggestions and would certainly welcome more feedback/guidance - especially from people who are familiar with the conditions and have done these routes or stay there.
While I am planning a detailed itinerary, I am also assuming that we might possibly get stuck due to bad weather and will have drop sections of the itinerary altogether. The longest driving I will do on a 3 of the days is about 4 hours - on remaining days, driving will be between 2 and 3 hours.
I can see other posters' concerns about the weather and my driving itinerary and I am getting the distinct impression that people think that I am foolish for planning this trip.
I am not sure how to interpret some of the suggestions:
a. is the suggestion here that I drop the idea of travelling to South of France and Italy in the 2nd half of December in a car because that is foolish?
b. or is the suggestion that don't plan anything - check the weather and then decide to do whatever is feasible?
Again, I am not planning to stick to the itinerary come hail or storm! What I am trying to do here is have a detailed plan for what I want to see, towns I want to travel to, routes and distances. If weather is not favourable then I plan to either improvise or drop parts of the itinerary altogether.
I really appreciate all the effort people put in giving the feedback and suggestions and would certainly welcome more feedback/guidance - especially from people who are familiar with the conditions and have done these routes or stay there.
Nov 22nd, 2011, 08:23 AM
#53
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Here are my thoughts on your itinerary:
General "traveling in Europe" considerations:
1. Vacationers normally can't pack as much into a day in Europe as you can in the US (for example) because many things close on Sundays, & Monday mornings. Shops and some museums & sites close for lunch, and many museums are closed 1 day a week.
2. If you want to have a nice dinner before 6:30PM or a lunch at 11:30 AM - you probably won't find many (if any) restaurants open at those times. Fast food places may be open then.
3. Many US travelers are not aware of how far north most of Europe is. All the places you plan to visit north of Rome, are at the same latitude or north of the northern US border states (Maine, Michigan, North Dakota, Washington, etc).
4. There always seems to be some major road construction going on. You may be traveling on an autoroute at 130K/hr - and you suddenly hit a 'deviation" where everyone is channeled onto 1 lane, and you end up traveling at the pace of the slowest truck - about 65K/hr.
Seasoned European travelers are aware of these things, and they plan an itinerary accordingly.
In your case, I think you are trying to pack too much stuff in, and you have some plans that are marginally non-doable and some things that are risky. Personally, I have no problems with planning an itinerary that is aggressive but do-able under ideal conditions for the time of year. But here are some things that I would be worried about on your itinerary.
1. Heading into the Alps immediately after you land. This presumes that you have good access to weather forecasts before you take off from home, and the forecast is "good". What happens if you get to Briancon and the weather is not as predicted? What do you do then?? "Hole out" in the Alps for 2-3 days and seriously impact your remaining schedule. Personally, I would not go into the Alps, and instead take the route through Nice to get to Arles.
2. The 5-6 hr drive from Tuscany to Sorrento around the shortest daylight day of the year is marginally "not too smart/non-doable" for only 1 1/2 days in Sorrento and only 2 days in Rome. Going to Sorrento is pretty far out of the way & what happens to your hikes and drives along the Amalfi coast if you get a big rainstorm - not much fun. If you spent more time in Rome, there will be more stuff to do if the weather is not good. Personally, I would skip Sorrent & shorten your drive & spend more time in Tuscany & Rome. If you really want to go to Sorrento, I might consider dropping the Provence or even the entire France portion of your plans and spend more time in Tuscany, Sorrento, and in Rome.
Just some thoughts!!!!
Stu Dudley
General "traveling in Europe" considerations:
1. Vacationers normally can't pack as much into a day in Europe as you can in the US (for example) because many things close on Sundays, & Monday mornings. Shops and some museums & sites close for lunch, and many museums are closed 1 day a week.
2. If you want to have a nice dinner before 6:30PM or a lunch at 11:30 AM - you probably won't find many (if any) restaurants open at those times. Fast food places may be open then.
3. Many US travelers are not aware of how far north most of Europe is. All the places you plan to visit north of Rome, are at the same latitude or north of the northern US border states (Maine, Michigan, North Dakota, Washington, etc).
4. There always seems to be some major road construction going on. You may be traveling on an autoroute at 130K/hr - and you suddenly hit a 'deviation" where everyone is channeled onto 1 lane, and you end up traveling at the pace of the slowest truck - about 65K/hr.
Seasoned European travelers are aware of these things, and they plan an itinerary accordingly.
In your case, I think you are trying to pack too much stuff in, and you have some plans that are marginally non-doable and some things that are risky. Personally, I have no problems with planning an itinerary that is aggressive but do-able under ideal conditions for the time of year. But here are some things that I would be worried about on your itinerary.
1. Heading into the Alps immediately after you land. This presumes that you have good access to weather forecasts before you take off from home, and the forecast is "good". What happens if you get to Briancon and the weather is not as predicted? What do you do then?? "Hole out" in the Alps for 2-3 days and seriously impact your remaining schedule. Personally, I would not go into the Alps, and instead take the route through Nice to get to Arles.
2. The 5-6 hr drive from Tuscany to Sorrento around the shortest daylight day of the year is marginally "not too smart/non-doable" for only 1 1/2 days in Sorrento and only 2 days in Rome. Going to Sorrento is pretty far out of the way & what happens to your hikes and drives along the Amalfi coast if you get a big rainstorm - not much fun. If you spent more time in Rome, there will be more stuff to do if the weather is not good. Personally, I would skip Sorrent & shorten your drive & spend more time in Tuscany & Rome. If you really want to go to Sorrento, I might consider dropping the Provence or even the entire France portion of your plans and spend more time in Tuscany, Sorrento, and in Rome.
Just some thoughts!!!!
Stu Dudley
