gragusha

Thanks again. A few other questions:

1. What places do you recommend to see and stay in Italian Riviera/Tuscany?

2. What side trips from Nice and Arles. Is Camagrue a good day trip?

3. Will skip the Dolomites plan - that will free up 3 days which we can spread around - so can still do Sorrento.

4. Any nice local Markets (farmers; markekts) recommendations - which day and which town?


Now maybe something like this:

Arles - 4 nights
Nice - 3 Nights
Tuscany - 2 or 3 nights
Sorrento 3 nights
Rome 3 Nights


Any thoughts on a night stay near "Gorges du Verdon" on the way to Arles? Any recomemndations for where?

Thanks for all your help.

StuDudley

>>Arles - 4 nights
Nice - 3 Nights
Tuscany - 2 or 3 nights
Sorrento 3 nights
Rome 3 Nights<<

What you really mean is:
Arles/Provence 3 days
Nice 2 1/2 days
Tuscany 1 or 2 days
Sorrento/Amalfi coast 2 days
Rome 3 days

About 1-3 too few days in each location, IMO. Your suggested itinerary consists of to much time "getting there", and too little time "being there". In December, I would eliminate the Sorrento stop.

>>Any thoughts on a night stay near "Gorges du Verdon" on the way to Arles? Any recomemndations for where?<<

You do not need to add any more destinations to your already "too full" itinerary. I'm not a big fan of the Gorges du Verdon (much better gorges elsewhere in France & USA, IMO). I live near the Big Sur coast in Calif & have driven the Amalfi coast many times - and the Route du Cretes on the Gorges du Verdon scares me - I can't imagine what it would be like in December.

Less is more.

I'm working on a suggested itinerary for you, and I will e-mail it to you sometime tomorrow.

Stu Dudley

gragusha

Thanks Stu. I have done the biggest gorge (US) in winters - had the misfortune of getting my car stuck on ice in a remote parking lot - got rescued soon though. Have done the Highway 1 drive on the Big Sur coast several times - you are lucky to be living there!

Thank you so much for your comments and I look forward to your suggested itinerary.

StuDudley

>>>I have done the biggest gorge (US) in winters<<

You would be VERY disappointed with the Gorges du Verdon if you have visited the Grand Canyon.

Stu Dudley

annhig

gragusha - what Stu says.

his routes are legendary, so if he recommends NOT doing something, you can guarantee there's a good reason for it.

and really to go to Sorrento for 2 days in winter cannot be worth it.

Stu - i'm sure I'm not the only one who'll be interested in seeing what you suggest here!

StuDudley

I sent it to the OP via e-mail - but I'll post the "bulk" of it here too

Here is a suggested itinerary. You seem to like scenic drives – so I’ll concentrate on them

Dec 16 Fri - Arrive & drive 5 ½ hrs to Arles.

Dec 17 Sat
Market day in Arles. Markets run from about 9am to 1pm. It is centered on the Blvd des Lices, which is the main road that runs along the south end of the old town.

I’ll assume you’ll visit Arles either in the evening after some day-trips, or in the AM before heading out on day-trips – so I won’t allocate any time to Arles – just catch it when you can.

After the market, visit Les Baux. Then drive around the Alpilles. See my Provence itinerary for a suggested route. If there is time left in the day, visit St Remy.

Dec 18 Sun.
Market day in l’Isle sur la Sorgue. This is perhaps the biggest/most popular market in Provence – perhaps the most popular in all of France. See my itinerary for details. My wife & I have visited between 50 & 70 different markets throughout France

After the market, take the scenic driving tour of the Luberon countryside & “cute perched little villages”. See my Provence itinerary for details. You won’t have time to visit all the villages – so maybe get out of the car & just visit Gordes and Bonnieux or Roussillon. However, try to drive most of the entire route. Many villages look great from the road as you drive through the pretty countryside. The 10 YO might enjoy the ochre fields around Roussillon. In Gordes, you should be able to drive up & park next to the chateau in December (no small/narrow streets). Shops will be open in Gordes & Roussillon on Sunday – at least they are in summer/spring/fall. If you do not visit the l’Isle sur la Sorgue market, just spend the entire day driving around & visiting villages in the Luberon.

Dec 19 Monday
This is your last day in Provence (you’ll wish you had more time), so some options are:
1. Visit the Pont du Gard in the am & Uzes in the afternoon
2. Take my “lavender fields” driving itinerary & see some new terrain & a cute village or two.
3. Choose another driving route from my itinerary
4. Visit more of the Luberon if you did not see enough on Sunday. Include Lourmarin – the drive there & back from Bonnieux is very scenic.

I would not visit Avignon – visit Aix en Provence instead – on the way to Nice (see below). Remember, most shops in Avignon & Uzes will be closed Monday AM & won’t open up till around 2:30-3


Dec 20 Tues.
Head out to Aix en Provence & visit this city if you did not visit Avignon yesterday (both cities are somewhat similar – so no reason to visit both). Tuesday is their market day. After visiting Aix (half-day) head on to Nice. The drive past the Maures Mountains near the St Tropez exit is quite scenic. We always stay at the Hotel Windsor in Nice.
Explore Nice.

Dec 21 Wed. Explore Nice

Dec 22 Thurs.
Scenic drives & “cute villages”. Do one of these two drives – see my Cote d’Azur itinerary for details
“St Paul de Vence & surrounding area” or
“Got an extra day to explore more of the Nice Hinterland?”

Dec 22 Thurs – head out for Lucca in Italy. 4 hr drive. Around Genoa, there are lots of tunnels & opportunities to make a wrong turn & get lost on surface streets.
Explore Lucca & stay overnight 1 night.
Note – if you skip Lucca and try to make it all the way from Nice to San Quirico – it is a 6 ¼ hr drive – closer to 7 hrs with stops. Lucca is one of our favorite cities in Italy.

Dec 23 Fri – visit Lucca in the AM if you didn’t see enough yesterday. Then head out for San Quirico d’Orcia (see my Italy itinerary). It is a 2 ½ drive from Lucca. If there is time left in the day, visit Pienza. (1 village east of San Quirico).

Dec 24 – Sat. See my Italy itinerary & take the drive called “Tuscany Val d’Orcia” This is a beautiful drive & lots of interesting villages to explore. I’ve posted it may time on Fodors & readers all seem to love it.

Dec 25 Sun – Christmas. I think the Val d’Orcia would be a fabulous area to be in for Christmas. Most cities & villages will probably be dead – but the beautiful countryside will be there. Actually, Pienza might be interesting on this day – without the tourists. Take one of my “other” scenic drives – perhaps “Day 15” in my itinerary.

Dec 26 Mon – Visit San Gimignano and Volterra. Notice the difference in terrain between the Val d’Orcia and the region around Volterra. If you want, you could stay overnight in San Gimignano on the way from Lucca to San Quirico. Many shops will be closed in Siena on Monday morning – opening up in the afternoon around 2-3PM..

Dec 27 Tues – Visit Siena in the AM. Do another of my “scenic” drives from the itinerary in the afternoon. Or visit Montalcino, Pienza, or Montalcino. Too many interesting places & not enough time to visit even a small portion of them.

At this point, I tried to evaluate 3 different itineraries for the remainder of your trip.
1. Drive straight to Sorrento from San Quirico. This would be a 5 hr drive without pottie-stops or lunch. Door-to-door it would be closer to 6 hrs with a pottie-stop, gas fill-up, & a picnic lunch in the car while driving. The route from SQ to Sorrento is not scenic – especially going 120K/hr (some spots around Orvieto & after immediately leaving SQ are scenic). So if you leave SQ at 9 you’ll get to Sorrento around 3PM – with only about 1 hr of sunlight left in the day (Sorrento is pretty far east in the time zone). Spend 2 nights/1 day in Sorrento/Amalfi coast and then head back to Rome – about a 3 ¼ hr drive – but getting into Rome by car is a nightmare. We tried this once, and the police would not let us drive to our hotel because only “special” cars & taxis are allowed into the center of Rome. We stayed near the Spanish steps.
So you would spend Wed & Thurs night in Sorrento, and Friday & Sat in Rome before heading out on Sunday by train (don’t drive) to Milan for an overnight stay before your flight home. This is not enough time to enjoy the Amalfi coast and certainly not enough time in Rome.
2. Drive from SQ to Orvieto (1 ½ hrs), visit Orvieto, then drive to Tivoli (1 ½ hrs) just east of Rome, stay overnight, visit Hadrian’s Villa & Villa d’Est. Then head to Sorrento (3 ¼ hrs) & stay 1 night. Late the next day, had to Rome – 3 ¼ hr drive. This option is worse than option 1 – almost no time on Amalfi Coast & not enough time in Rome.
3. Drive from SQ to Orvieto (1 ½ hrs), visit Orvieto, return the car in Orvieto, then take the train into Rome (1 hr trip). This gives you 4 nights/3 days in Rome. Still not enough time – but better than 2 nights/1 ½ days.

Obvoiusly, option 3 is what I would recommend. We’ve done this twice.

So;
Dec 28 Wed
Head out from SQ to Orvieto & visit Orvieto. The car return offices are close to the train station – which is below the beautiful/interesting perched city of Orvieto – one of our favorites in Italy. The car rental office has come & gone & come again in Orvieto – so check with whomever you are renting a car through (we use www.autoeurope.com ) to make sure it is there, & what the opening times are. You will probably need to work around the opening & closing lunch times (you will have to store your luggage in the car trunk or rental office while visiting Orvieto – we’ve done this).

Dec 29 Thursday - Explore Rome

Dec 30 Fri – Explore Rome

Dec 31 Sat – Explore Rome. Rome should be quite something on New Year’s eve

Jan 1 Sun
Take the train to Milan & stay overnight in Milan. There are hourly departures to Milan & the trip take 3 ¼ hrs. DO NOT DRIVE. Milan is mainly for shopping – and on Jan 1 and also on all Sundays, shops will be closed. Rome will be a better place to spend most of the day, so take a later train to Milan.

Jan 2 Mon - take a taxi to the airport & fly home.

Note – we once tried to drive to the Milan airport on a work day. We started the day in Bellagio, and we encounterd monstrous commute traffic around Milan & got to the airport 30 mins before our flight home. I don’t know if Monday Jan 2 is a holiday or work day in Italy.

Stu Dudley

annhig

Thanks, Stu.

bobthenavigator

Great stuff Stu---as usual.

gragusha

Wow - I cannot thank you enough for your detailed itinerary. It sounds great. I will digest it and do some research - might come up with a few questions.

A couple of quick ones -

1. We love hiking - nothing serious though. Any suggestions on 1-3 hour hikes in these places (or on the way) would be appreciated. We wouldn't mind the cold if it is not raining.

2. I had picked up Arles without too much thought/research. Is Arles the best base in Provence (at this time) or would you suggest another town?

I really appreciate all the help!

gragusha

Another question - if I want to break my journey from Milan to Arles on day 1, what will be the best town (preferably scenic - as we will reach there by lunch) to stay on the 16th?

Thanks again.

StuDudley

>>1. We love hiking - nothing serious though. Any suggestions on 1-3 hour hikes in these places (or on the way) would be appreciated. We wouldn't mind the cold if it is not raining.<<<

There are many hiking trails in the Val d'Orcia, starting from both San Quirico and Pienza - although the ones starting from Pienza initially involve a steep hill because Pienza is perched on a steep hill on the south side. These trails are all south of the S146 which runs from San Quirico, through Pienza, to Montepulciano. We've taken several of these trails. We've also driven our car along one of the dirt roads south of Pienza, parked the car, and started a day-hike from there. I have a map published by "Carta Turistica e Stradale" which is titled "Val di Chiana, Val d'Orcia". It is on the scale 1/50,000. I picked it up at the news stand just outside the entrance "gate" to Pienza - near the Pizza place. Trails are marked on this map

>>2. I had picked up Arles without too much thought/research. Is Arles the best base in Provence (at this time) or would you suggest another town?<<

Arles would be fine in December - as I previously noted. St Remy is smaller & would be a good choice also - but it is quite touristy/crowded in the summer and it might be a little dead in December, because it is more tourist oriented than Arles (never been there in Dec).

Stu Dudley

StuDudley

>>if I want to break my journey from Milan to Arles on day 1, what will be the best town (preferably scenic - as we will reach there by lunch) to stay on the 16th?<<

Nice is a little over half-way between Malpinsa & Arles. A great place to stay near Nice would be St Paul de Vence - probably the most popular/scenic hill village in the Nice area. It is just past Nice, & easy to access from the Autoroute. We've stayed in a Gite near there for 4 weeks (2 trips), and have also stayed in a hotel in St Paul on 2 other occasions. Great views, cute village, and lots of other stuff to explore in a very short time. In fact, on the itinerary I did for you in Nice, I suggested that you take a day & visit St Paul, and then do the "Loup loop" and also visit Vence, Tourrettes sur Loup, Gourdon, and also the scenic Loup river gorge. This would be a great drive in the afternoon of your arrival - after you have rested a bit. Then, when you return to Nice several days later, take the other drive I suggested that follows the Var River, and past the remarkable village of Entrevaux, and then the Gorges de Daluis, and the Gorges Superieures du Cians - which we enjoyed a lot more than the gorges du Verdon. Beautiful red cliffs.

The drive from Malpinsa to St Paul is about 3 3/4 hrs, and from St Paul to Arles it is about 2 1/2 hrs.

There are 2 "high end" hotels in St Paul - the historic Colombe d'Or (read about the history of starved painters), and also le Saint-Paul hotel. We stayed at the mid-range le Hameau just a short walk from St Paul, but it is closed in December.

If you stay Friday night in St Paul, you would miss the Arles market - but that's OK because you can then visit the Sunday market in l'Isle sur la Sorgue - which you probably would have enjoyed more than the Arles market anyway.

Stu Dudley

zeppole

Wow.

I just checked back into this thread and saw that people went to the trouble of getting my advice about the weather and traveling with such a small child in mid-to-late December removed so that the OP couldn't see it.

gragusha,

St Paul de Vence is much too far for you to plan on driving in mid-December arriving Malpensa airport. It is much to far for you to drive even in sunny weather if you have never driven in Italy before.

I live on the Italian Riviera and in the post that other people went to lengths to get removed, I warned you that is really not responsible travel to land in Milan in December and target France as your first destination, especially if you are traveling with a child. When you land in Milan, you should plan to stay your first night in Milan or very near Milan. Get some rest, see what the weather is and will be for the next few days, and decide where to go from there.

You must cross a mountain pass to get from Malpensa to the French Riviera or Provence. Don't book a hotel that forces you to cross that mountain pass upon arrival in Italy.

In response to your questions about weather in February, YES. Of course the weather is going to be a factor. You need to cross a mountain road to get from Malpensa to the south of France. In places like Tuscany, ice and snow very often limit your access to hiking areas. If you book hotels in advance in rural places that VERY FREQUENTLY get snow in December -- as they have for the past THREE years -- you could find yourself stranded or out of money (at best)

To Stu and others,

I really don't know what to say to you for taking down my post or egging Stu Dudley on in this. He has never driven the route he is proposing. Anyone who has paid attention to winter weather in the last few years in Italy knows December has seen bad snowstorms right in the OP's time frame, The moderators of Fodor's are being contacted to have my posts taken down because --- why? Because I call this irresponsible travel advice? Folks, get a grip. It is. This family shouldn't be booking a trip like this for February in Italy and France. None of you would take it and you know it.

Please overlook that it is the hated Zeppole posting this and the beloved Stu who feels threatened by this. Someone else is traveling with a child.

Stu, if you are the one who got my post removed, man up and confess to the OP that you've never done this trip in December -- or if you have, how many decades ago was it? Recent weather patterns in Italy do not make this advisable. And do the OP the favor of letting someone who lives in Italy warn him of this.

zeppole

Sorry for repeatedly tying February. I know the OP is traveling in December.

Above, I have posted several youtube videos of snowstorms in December in Italy and France, right in the OPs travel time frame. These storms have occurred IN DECEMBER in the past three years. They have stopped all road traffic in Northern and Central Italy, other than in areas cleared for ski resorts.

Once more, a family traveling in these areas needs to plan for flexibility, not a day-by-day-locked-into-hotel-reservations itinerary. And tremendous care needs to be taken to avoid becoming stranded in rural areas due to snow.

Snow is not removed on small roads due to lack of snow equipment. You must watch the weather, and in general keep your ambitions low about how much geopgraphy you can cover.

This plan you are applauding is irresponsible, and could end up costing the family time, money and worse if taken seriously.

zeppole

People should really not be allowed to wheedle Fodor's moderators into taking down posts that warn travelers of hazardous travel conditions, just to protect Stu's feelings.

zeppole

Here's the reason you don't book a detailed Italy driving trip after Dec 15:

http://www.theweathernetwork.com/new...ighways_181210

zeppole

http://hypsithermal.wordpress.com/20...ch-cote-dazur/

zeppole

http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-153152

zeppole

That last one, by the way, was an ice storm on the French Riviera, from someone who lives there.

I am not saying cancel your trip. I am saying that you cannot plan a trip that locks you into your first night in France and your last nights in Rome with the idea that your are going to be driving these distances. You do need hotel reservations for your first night, but that hotel should not be a long driving distance from the airport. If you want to see Rome, you would do well to have hotel reservations there. But then keep the middle part of your trip totally flexible, watch the weather, and beware putting too much geography between you and Rome, or fixating on driving on switchback roads to reach hilltop towns like Volterra. Stay safe.

zeppole

gragusha,

Sorry to seemingly clog up your thread with consecutive posts, but I want to underscore that when you ask a message board of travel-planning addicts for trip advice, some will write you minute-by-minute guide even when your trip should be guided above all by the unknown and changing circumstances you will be facing on your trip. You DO need to plan some thing in advance -- your first night hotel and how you are getting back to Milan with plenty of time to catch your return flight. But the rest should be contingent on weather because you are driving. If seeing both Arles and Rome is important to you, leave the space in between wide open so you are not tempted to drive more than you can safely just because you have a hotel reservation. (Again, were it me, I would eliminate France entirely at this time of year, as its just too much hard driving.)

Hope you have sunny days start to finish.