The alps & the Engadin areas of Switzerland are two of the most beautiful places in Europe. The discussion was about Zurich & Venice, though. Zurich is a city that doesn't necessarily exist for tourism, whereas Venice would fold up without it. Most Venetian families have either moved away or are in the tourist business (operating hotels and restaurants). I haven't been to Venice since I was 17, and what I remember is a wondrous place (decades ago). Now, however, not sure I could take the tourist crowds, but I will eventually return, off season, and try to walk in those little explored areas mentioned here.

At 17. I remember walking across a tiny canal and going into some sort of store that had a huge poster up of Françoise Hardy, a French folk singer of the era, who was to perform in town a few days later. I wanted so badly to stay, but I was touring with a performance choir.

I'm another for whom Venice didn't do much, tho' I could appreciate why it may have excited many of my fellow travellers. I've decided over the years that I'm not really a crowd person, so probably Venice in late May a few years ago was not ideal. Apart from the crowds (and worrying about pickpockets) I found it very dirty. On the plus side though, the local citizens were friendly and helpful in my short sojourn through. More recently I enjoyed several days' stay in Zurich, where the weather gods were extremely kind - almost to the point of heatwave - and despite a lot of noisy roadworks going on around town, I enjoyed walking around, people-watching and trying to resist the chocolate temptations. Failed miserably there! It was very beautiful walking by the lake and I wouldn't hesitate to return...the shopkeepers were amenable...even though I was mainly browsing...but the piggy bank will definitely need replenishing before my next trip.

vincenzo - I believe you just violated the forum guidelines.

I think Venice in the winter must be something all together different. Thinking of that movie "Don't Look Now" with Donald Sutherland which revealed it as a creepy, mysterious place. Now THAT is something I might like.

so did Thomas Mann, portray Venice in winter as quiet - I have been in Venice in January when there can be fog - evocative of Carl Sandburgh's poem that says "fog comes on little cat feet. It sits looking over harbor and city on silent haunches and then moves on".

Venice in winter can be nice - especially during Mardi Gras when lots of folks dress up in those lavish fashions with masks.

I much rather prefer Venice in winter than in the mobbed summer.

Like New York City, but in different ways, Venice is am impossible place that I can't help but love.

<i><font color=#555555>"But the mobs of tourists that hit me (almost literally) when I got of the water taxi from the airport, made me want to scream."</font></i>

Imagine how the locals feel.

Packed boats at any time of the year are annoying. It's very difficult to walk around a sea of bodies carrying backpacks and rollabouts. And they all insist on standing in the boarding area.

Trying to take a subway train during rush hour or when it's raining in Manhattan is also a major pain. You often have to wait for a second train, and even then, the trains are packed like sardines. People refuse to move to allow you to get on.

<i><font color=#555555>"The food we sampled - over and over - was awful for high prices."</font></i>

If you want delicious food in Venice, one has to research and plan with great care. Planning takes time, energy, perseverance, and a really good map with a really good sense of direction. Good = low cost doesn't exist in Venice. If you question why, then your lack of research shows. The vast majority of tourists suffer and waste money on bad food.

Imagine how the locals feel.>

Many locals long ago fled to the mainland and Mestre - many want to have cars easily at their disposal and are supposedly being outpriced out of the housing market by boutique hotels, conference centers, chick art galleries, etc. No one really wants to live in a museum piece like Venice is to me - I love Venice but never ever would live there permanently.

PalenQ - Yes, I've read that the population keeps diminishing. That's really quite unfortunate as the history of Venice is so impressive. But people go where the jobs are.

NYC Food Snob -NYC subway during rush hour is hardly an apt comparison with tourists in Venice. Again, people LIVE in NYC and have to travel that way. If you're a tourist you don't have to go on the subway during rush hour.

As far as finding delicious food in Venice and my not doing extensive research (as per y our claim). . . I didn't care about delicious food, I cared about passable food.

But again, each to his or her own.

Knew I'd finally get a beating!!

"If you want delicious food in Venice, one has to research and plan with great care. Planning takes time, energy, perseverance, and a really good map with a really good sense of direction."

Venice would seem to be the only town in Italy where one has to do research to find delicious food. We've never had to plan our meals with great care anywhere else in Italy.

But I don't begrudge the higher prices because I do think there are unique costs to providing services and operating a business in Venice.

<i><font color=#555555>"NYC Food Snob -NYC subway during rush hour is hardly an apt comparison with tourists in Venice. Again, people LIVE in NYC and have to travel that way. If you're a tourist you don't have to go on the subway during rush hour."</font></i>

When common events, whether you're a tourist or not, occur almost every day, one can call that a lifestyle. I was comparing lifestyles. Who cares what label you put on the human being who is taking up space. A crowded city is a crowded city, whether the crowds are tourists or locals, or a mixture of both.

Now, if you have particular disdain for people who travel…

<i><font color=#555555>"I didn't care about delicious food, I cared about passable food."</font></i>

Passable food? What the hell is that? It certainly doesn't sound like anything I want to place anywhere near my mouth. I'm a food snob. I only care about delicious food.

<i><font color=#555555>"Venice would seem to be the only town in Italy where one has to do research to find delicious food. We've never had to plan our meals with great care anywhere else in Italy."</font></i>

IMO, the Euro has had a significant effect on all people in the food business. Venice is particularly challenging because of its location on the water, but sons and daughters in all regions of Italy are not following their parents and taking over the family <i>trattorie</i>. Many places cut corners now to survive. To find the artisans who care deeply about quality, one needs to do the research. Italy has changed.

I've been living in Marghera, a town on the mainland but only a 20 minute bus ride from Venezia for about two months. I arrived at the end of summer, and I can still remember the gasp that I made as I walked across the Ponte della Costituzione. It is a picturesque city and it is very hard to argue against that. However, the hoards of tourists did create a reluctance in me to fully allow myself to be charmed by it.

It caters to tourists, and most Venetians will not deny it. It is true that most locals have fled, restaurants are slowly being bought and operated by immigrants, and it's hard not to look at the local tourist shops, gondoliers, and street sellers and be taken aback by it. At least it was for me.

I struggled a lot to find the beauty in the city that so many people claimed as their favourite in Europe. But now I've been here almost two months and I have to admit that I've fallen in love. If you allow yourself to walk through the streets as a traveller and not a tourist then you may have a better chance of appreciating it. It is the details, the history, the people and the secret treasures. It is the espresso at your favourite cafe, the hideaway pleasures away from the hustle and bustle and the slow walks back in the dark when you're walking a long a canal and then you realize you are in one of the most unique places in the world. Venezia needs to be taken in slowly, observed, and analyzed.

Perhaps some of you may disagree, but I urge you the next time you travel to allow yourselves a few moments in a square at a cafe in the early morning. Order your espresso or tea, put your guidebook and GPS down and soak in everything around you.

**Also, a tip for choosing your restaurant, pretty much anywhere in Italy: If the majority of eaters are not Italian (or it just lacks a lot of locals) it's probably not that authentic. Also, never eat a place that puts their food on display.