vincenzo32951

It's really disappointing that no one is calling the OP and idiot.

bilboburgler

I like Venice after 7 (or 11) at night and before 8 in the morning. I suspect the fat tubs in the lagoon have already destroyed the beauty of Venice.

Zurich, apart from the cathedral and the meringues is dull. Still I've been stuck there too often to find any pleasure in it.

Ackislander

I have a very good American friend who is married to a Swiss and has lived in Zurich for about thirty years.

S/he says the overcast weather and the self-satisfaction of the bourgeoisie are real issues for long term residents.

gruezi

Well, I have to agree on the Zürich weather - I struggled with that!

I guess the bourgeoisie is self-satisfied - not really sure. But, the overall QOL in Switzerland for those of any income is certainly something to envy.

bsmithstucky

I cannot comment on Zurich, but someday....!

I've been to Venezia three times and am one who has fell hopelessly in love. First trip I was with my dad, husband and kids (we had just lost my mom, so didn't expect to enjoy much of anything). We had heard a lot of "meh" comments about Venezia and so were a bit surprised when we LOVED it. But we stayed in a fabulous hotel in the Cannaregio where we ate breakfast by a quiet canal very morning and were served the best caffè (espresso) I'd ever had. The owners were wonderful and the only tourists we saw were lost. This was end of July BTW.

Our second trip was just my husband and I. We use his FF miles to travel and pay for hotels mostly. That trip we stayed at the edge of Cannaregio (5 mins from Rialto) at a hotel that we could use miles at. Also lovely and then paid for three nights at the place from our first trip. This trip was all about relaxing and searching out good nibbles.

My third trip was solo, hotels and airfare completely covered with miles and points, so I stayed in four hotels over 11 days. And I can attest that where you stay and where you eat definitely make a huge difference in your perception of any town. I figured out where to eat meals by sampling cicchetti (sometimes that was my meal). And only one of the three hotels I wouldn't pay to stay at again. It catered to cruise ship guests. Very comfortable, high class but stuffy and boring. I never had a meal there. But that was my gain as I found such delights just down the fondamenta!

This is what I know about Venezia.
1. It's the worlds best maze and I am slowly conquering it!
2. After a total of 25 nights, there are still several things I want to see and neighborhoods (sestieri) I want to explore.
3. Great food at reasonable prices, with charming service, is abundant. But not easy to find.

I SO agree about cruise ships. I propose they treat them like the cargo ships back in the quarantine periods. Make them dock on the other side of the Lido and come in by taxi or bus.

And here's the thing. I'm kind of secretly happy when people don't care for Venezia. Spread the word! More room for the rest of us. ;-)

NYCFoodSnob

<i><font color=#555555>"(Venice is) either loved or hated with great passion."</font></i>

My kind of city. Much like New York City. One less passionless tourist is OK by me.

<i><font color=#555555>"While there are crowds, they have never taken away from our enjoyment of this fabulous city."</font></i>

Then you were lucky. The "crowds" can definitely ruin your trip and your perception of Venice, especially at peak times, like Carnivale. First-timers typically have no clue how to avoid the paths taken by the masses. Millions of tourists come to Venice with terrible maps. Sometimes the most used paths are the only way to get from point A to point B, unless you want to fall into a canal. If you get stuck on the calli between the Rialto and San Marco during Carnivale, you can be in very tight, back-to-back line for over an hour with no escape. The two-person calli have lines in both directions. God help those who are claustrophobic and/or impatient. Crossing the Rialto can take forty minutes. Two boats can pass before you can fit on a vaporetto. You will freeze at the docks if you did not dress for the cold, damp weather.

I'm all for less people visiting Venice. I support a hefty surcharge for daytrippers. And get those god-awful cruise ships out of there. The sight of one is like watching a Michael Bay film: tasteless testosterone.

Mimar

I love Venice and like Zurich. We were pleasantly surprised by Zurich. The center is a nice size, very walkable, especially along the river and lake fronts. I'm not much of a shopper (except for chocolate); good chocolate stores in Zurich.

In hopes of awakening a war, I prefer Zurich to Geneva, the latter of which is being fiercely defended in another thread.

Fra_Diavolo

Zurich has a small place in my heart -- it was my first stop escaping two years of hell in West Africa, and I loved sitting at a large open-air restaurant on a blessedly cool evening, devouring sausage and rosti and beer. No desire to return, though. I saw it.

Venice, oh, I may get back. I was last there is mid-fall, 1987. The history interests me, the crowds do not.

PalenQ

Some Zurich memories are the most memorable of all my travels around the Globe now for four decades - most memorable was not a nice once - the Needle Park that for a few years in the 90s operated right along the river in a park behind the main train station.

Needle park was a place where Switzerland's at that time many younger heroin addicts could go get a legal and safe fix of heroin - train-station luggage carts were being used as counter tops - with boards on them and Swiss Army Knives to cut up the heroin and then the mainly rather young - late teens early 20s crowd proceeded to shoot up - this was sickening to me as some missed the mark and blood spurted up, etc.

I felt so so sorry for these young addicts but it was most surprising that in Switzerland of ALL place - staid old Switzerland that this was legally happening.

And not just in Zurich but Bern too - a similar park with hundreds of young Swiss shooting up and then merging into other folks on the street - all doped up.

and Switzerland then was also the Amsterdamned on Europe outside of Holland - every town had some places where you could legally go and buy cannabis - that I sampled as cannabis is a benign substance IMO and I enjoyed those 3 or 4 years of my annual Swiss trips with a buzz on at times - made the country even more magical looking.

But the Needle Park revolted me - not that it was legal as I am for legalizing all drugs and this was the reason at that time Switzerland allowed it - to prevent overdoses.

But the point is Switzerland may seem conservative and dull to the casual foreign tourist but it is anything but that in cities like Zurich and Bern (where after the legal canabis dispensaries closed there was a rather open marijuana market operating right in a park right under the Federal Parliament Building! Not sure if that is still the case but at least in drugs at that time Switzerland seemed enlightened.

I find Zurich a cosmopolitan city - take a walk on a nice weekend day along the lake thru the park - thousands of folk dressed in every imaginable cultural garb strolling around - another great memory - this one only positive.

Switzerland - don't judge it on its lovely cover!

Fra_Diavolo

PQ's post reminds me that I saw a young addict dying of AIDS on a sidewalk in the center. Very sad and disturbing.

Fra_Diavolo

That is, center of Zurich.

jamikins

I hate the part of Venice between st marks square and Rialto bridge. But if you stay clear of that area we found Venice to be blissfully void of people and tourist. We were there in early May.

PalenQ

Yes jamikins - I think many folks - not saying any of the above posters - but many tourists go to Venice and never get off that very very very beaten gauntlet between the train station/bus depot/parking lot area and St Mark's Square - for one reason it is easy to get lost (great for me) - but that main drag in summer has often IME been elbow-elbow - anything but romantic - but yes just a few blocks off the pedestrian freeway are really quiet areas of Venice that are quaint and are whatever you may have been thinking of for Venice in your mind's eye - this to me is the real beauty of Venice not the main drag.

PalenQ

That is, center of Zurich.>

at first I though maybe you were talking about something in Africa you saw but then thought no, Zurich - one of the world's wealthiest cities!

wow - this is shocking - in one of the world's wealthiest countries that happening and why in the midst of such wealth would the young ethnic Swiss - not immigrants but all-American type looking Swiss young people have such problems with addiction?

I guess money ain't everything.

jamikins

I agree Pal! I just loved finding piazzas with locals having coffee or a pre-dinner drink in the sun! Next time we go back we won't even do the gauntlet (love that btw!)

nytraveler

IMHO Zurich is not a terrible place. But since I have been there about a billion times on business trips (and love other parts of Swtiz for vacation) it just does nothing for me.

I don't drink beer, nor want to spend my entire retirement fund shopping. There are a couple of decent museums (but my local ones are much better) so it's not a total loss.

IMHO - if you are going to Switz the Alps are the must sees, with Zurich pretty far down the list.

kenav

Venice - I got off the beaten track. Walked to areas which were almost deserted. Very few tourists to be seen. Beautiful waterside restaurant. Yet, it just didn't speak to me. Wasn't "magical". And, you've still GOT to go to those very crowded areas or you won't see St. Mark's, etc., etc. The food we sampled - over and over - was awful for high prices.

Went in mid-September.

Yes, Vincenzo - I too am disappointed that no one's called me an idiot yet. How could that be?

PalenQ

kenav's take is why I disagree so much with veteran travelers that you MUST spend 3 or 4 nights here - many folks get tired on the mobs - the touristed aspect, etc. and fine a day or two enough time and then want to move on.

Everyone is different in what they like and there is no opinion or take that is better than others - just what turns you on or off!

suze

<<Exists for tourism now.>>

I don't understand how someone could say that about Venice. I mean even if you didn't like the place, it's not Disneyland. It certainly wasn't crated for tourists.

kenav

As to addiction in Switzerland - Yes, the well to do get addicted too.

Many cities are filled with tourists - of course! Well, at least in the tourist areas (duh - haven't seen too many in my neighborhood). Why? Because they are worth traveling to. But they don't just exist for tourism. Example: NYC - 8 million people actually live there.

Venice had some beautiful buildings, it has its own look, and it is unique in that it's built on many, many fast sinking islands. But the mobs of tourists that hit me (almost literally) when I got of the water taxi from the airport, made me want to scream.