Clarin

We are contemplating a 2-year stay in Paris, beginning summer of 2010. My daughter will be entering junior yr of high school at that time, so I'm guessing I need to locate the high schools & get going on this *yesterday* in order to have her interviewed, tested & enrolled for the fall of 2010.

Any advice on this adventure would be greatly appreciated. For all I know there could be a limited number of schools that accept foreign nationals. Not interested in an "American school" type of thing. She's not fluent in French, but I'm hoping she'd survive an immersion situation :/

SiobhanP

If you are intending on her returning with you in two years and entering university you really should consider an international school as she may not be up for or eligible for the French Baccalaureate exams and she will probably look to take her SAT's also Junior and senior year is where Universities will look at her academic records and if she does not speak or read french well you could be delaying her education and hold her back from university by at least a year. Not all international schools are exp or full of a certain embassy expat crowd. Do some research as i do believe there may be an American school in Paris and this is a vccritical time in her education. I think its even too late to get her on the IB track that many expat schools use (International Baccalaureate) Not sure I spelled that right!

Best of luck!

Clarin

Thanks for the input, Siobhan. As for whether or not she elects to return to the states after 2 years - who knows? Staying in Europe for college is an option.

I was just reading the US Embassy website, where I found a lot of info on schools, and learned of the pesky French Baccalaureate exams, that you mentioned. Indeed, there are some schools that offer the International Option of the French Baccalaureate ("OIB&quot, but you mention the possibility that junior year may be too late to get on that track, so I'll have to direct my attention to that issue straight away.

Believe me, I am well-aware of the critical nature of these academic years. Our school district is filled with children who learned to say Harvard and MIT before they entered 2nd grade, and it has only gotten worse. It is normal for MIT alum fathers to stay up all night doing science projects for their children in Jr High. Very normal. The only thing the kids in this area speak about is college, but it has been this way since 3rd grade - I kid you not. 99% of the parents have no interest in their children having a "childhood" per se. They only exist to get into an ivy league school. But not just any ivy league - they need to get into one of the "good" ivy league schools! The parents' lives revolve around this goal and we are sick to death of it.

Sorry to rant. Just wanted to you know that I am aware.

Christina

The American Embassy does have a list of schools in Paris, but those are probably "American schools" or something like that.

You can't just go wherever you want. If your daughter ges to public school (at that age, it would be a lycee unless she intended to go to a vocational school), she has to go to one in the neighborhood where you live. You would go to the Services des Ecoles in the mayor's office (mairie) of your arrondisement for information on enrollment and where she would have to go. You need passport information, birth certificate, proof as to residence in the school district, etc.

I don't know how it works as to whether she would have to take the brevet for admission to a lycee, or not, and I wouldn't want to bet on how that would work if she is not very good at written French. That is an examination in French, math and history/geography which determines where you can be admitted (eg, a lycee classique rather than a more vocational school or lycee technique or lycee professionel).

You might look into private schoools, some are subsidized by the government and would be cheaper than the ones that are not. I think an international school might be best, as you can't expect your daughter to get by very well in a regular French school if she doesn't know French that well, it can be very rigorous and she could get bad grades. They are not likely to make special exception for kids who can't keep up. It can be very competititve to get into some of the best international schools, also, such as the Lycee International in St Germain, but that's would to look into. International schools usually have a lot of classes in English and can award a variety of degrees, like an American diploma or an OIB (Option INternationale du Baccalaureat).

There are some French bilingual schools who attempt to mainstream non-French speakers into regular French classes after a year or so. If you are only there two years, and at that age, I'm not sure how that would work or if that would be appropriate but I think it could be, if she is strongly interested in learning French better. It's something to look into. I think they can also award the OIB rather than focusing on prep for the French bac.

that's all I know, it's a lot to find out about, that's for sure. Some expat websites might be more helpful.

Christina

This is the website of the Lycee International in St Germain en Laye

http://www.lycee-international.com/

this is some other international school but I haven't heard much about it, don't know if it's appropriate or not
http://www.eab.fr/

StCirq

Here's a link for you:

http://ssa.paris.online.fr/pages/Int.Schools.htm

I also think an international school is your best, and perhaps only option.

You might try the Expatica website also.

I trust you have all the information you need to get your visas and so forth, and that you do realize you can't just go live in Paris for 2 years without them.

Clarin

Christina: You've brought up many very good points. A public school is out, as I believe we need to begin the application process immediately & we have no idea where we'll be living. I think it will be a full-time job researching the schools and circumnavigating the various application processes. We probably won't even begin to look for an apartment until she's been accepted someplace.

In any case, I was just reading about Lycee International in St Germain en Laye, as it's listed on the US Embassy site, which appears to be rather comprehensive. Thanks again for the input.

Clarin

StCirq: Thanks for the link & the Expatica info. That's exactly the sort of site I need.

Regarding our Visas and so forth: indeed I'll have to address the red tape sooner rather than later & I appreciate your bringing it up.

nytraveler

I can't imagine that she will be able to do the work required in a French high school if she doesn;t already have an excellent command of French. Not what you can pick up in a month - but realy fluent French.

Even IF she decides she wants to go to university in europe - having miserable grades her last 2 years won;t allow her to do so.

Realy, a school with classes conducted in English is the only realistic option if she expects to get decent grades.

Sorry - assumed you were talking about a private school conducted in French. I can't imagine how she would even get into a public school without enough French to pass the exams.

DalaiLlama

To prevent possible shell-shock: On a year-to-year comparison, the French are far more advanced than the Americans, and a BAC is nothing like a HSC, a BAC is more like a bachelors.

In other words, your daughter may have an awful lot of catching up to do in many subjects just to enter her age's grade, never mind the language problem (which also puts her behind in lit. and such subjects).

I would aim right now at a school that is experienced in bringing American students up to speed, maybe for the first of your two years in Paris, and start her on a course to prepare for that first year, starting right now.

If the French consulate can't help, maybe your nearest Alliance Française can?

If she works really hard with the right tutoring during that first year, maybe, just maybe, she'll make it into a "real" French school for the second year. But it will be tough!

Mainhattengirl

I think putting a child or teenager into a school where they have to do all of their classes in another language without ever having learned the language properly, borders on cruelty. Imagine yourself in that situation. My daughter, though raised bi-lingually and who speaks and reads English and German fairly equally, absolutely cringes at the thought of having to do algebra or chemistry in English. It is a whole different thing than just having a conversation, or reading a book. Seriously think about this. One of the international schools would be far better, though they cost a fortune, unless your company is paying for it. All the students I have met (and I have met a lot of them!)who have gone to these "international" schools all over the world seem to be very well educated and balanced. Yes, this is where the kids of the foreign service employees and the diplomats go, but they have never come across as stuck up to me. I would have loved to have had my kids go to an international school. I have seen kids get thrown into schools where they don't speak the language well or at all, and it is enough to make ya cry. How frustrating to know you are smart, but not be able to understand anything.

padams421

International schools follow the International Baccalaureate program. It is a 2 year program done during the equivalent of the U.S. junior and senior years of high school. It would probably be the best program for your daughter as it would be accepted by American universities as well as foreign universities. Since she is not fluent in French, I suggest hiring a tutor asap to work on her fluency.
You also might consider sending her to France for a summer program this summer or as a foreign exchange student next year to see if it is something she wants to do for 2 years. Good luck!

Clarin

Really appreciate all of the detailed info regarding the French schools. Very helpful & eye-opening, indeed! Last night, when this move-to-France idea surfaced, I told my husband it was insane(!) to think that our daughter could manage junior & senior year immersed in French. However, my husband went through a somewhat similar situation as a child, so he thought she could do it. Now that he's read the responses, he agrees that it would be a bit much.

The idea of sending her to an international school doesn't have a whole lot of appeal though. If she's going to spend her days in a school full of English-speaking kids who are oozing entitlement, she might as well stay home. She can do that here. Granted, there's much to be gained from living abroad for 2 years, but it just isn't the same if she's not spending her days with French kids. Just not the same.

Mainhattengirl

Going to the International schools is nothing like going to schools in the States. For one, there is the emphasis on the host nation language, all the kids are from all around the world - so she would not be spending her days with "English" speaking kids as most of them will have English as a 2nd language, & they do a lot of projects to help 3rd world countries. At the Frankfurt International school, the students raise money all year long and then go down to Africa to build schools (this includes buying the water, cement, desks, books, etc.) and also over to places like Romania to repair schools. Oprah would do well to take a look at a project like this. Most of these kids do not ooze entitlement as you put it. They may have lived in some of the poorest countries on earth, seen dire poverty up close, and they are nothing like kids who grow up in the states. They know they are lucky, but seem grateful for it, not snooty.

You state your husband went through a similar situation as a child. As a child it is quite different than doing it as a teenager. Just cause he did it, does it mean his daughter should have the same difficulties. Why would you wish something like this on your daughter is beyond me. Perhaps as a 1st grader, but not 11th grade.

DalaiLlama

Clarin sez "[...] If she's going to spend her days in a school full of English-speaking kids who are oozing entitlement, she might as well stay home [...] it just isn't the same if she's not spending her days with French kids."

True, but it doesn't have to be one or the other, it can be both.

For the bulk of the serious studying she needs to be in a school where she understands and keeps up and - dare I say - forges ahead of where the average US high school is at that point.

But she will need private lessons on the side, and tutoring - both should be done by French instructors.

And there is so much more to the stay in France. For example, her music lessons should be taken with somebody who speaks French to her. Her dance lessons or whatever else she does to keep her creative - ditto.

She will make friends in various activities - they will be French. Among her French friends and acquaintances she will be the "other", the "different one" - sought out by some, disliked by others (the difficult age...) and you the parents will foster friendships like that by having her friends come over.

There is a way to isolate oneself, and there is a way to immerse oneself. Use the expat community as a resource, but avoid getting absorbed to the point that most of your contacts are US-Americans.

Reach out, you'll quickly learn about the etiquette of making French friends, and since you're the well-meaning foreigner you are forgiven all kinds of little faux-pas that you don't even know you commit in the rather formal society that is France - your cultural immersion will take place if you wish it so.

If your daughter likes the whole idea, how this will make her a different person, how her horizons will be so much wider, and if she sees that it will mean a heck of a lot of work, but the kind of work that you see pay off - by being more fluent, by "getting" it and becoming accepted - if all that works for her, after one year of hard work she will be ahead in leaps and bounds.

Mainhattengirl takes too dim a view of this - the benefits outweigh the disadvantages 3:1 as long as your daughter works hard and keep her eye on the prize. The fact that it is an international school (not an American-only school) with a mix of already bilingual students is an enrichment, not a hindrance. With tutoring and private lessons on the side, your daughter can succeed and be much the richer for it.

I know that it's all new for you now, the whole concept, and daunting - stick with it, keep input coming and discuss things, change your minds daiily - soon some firm ideas will crystallize and you'll get closer to a decision.

Mainhattengirl

You missed my point. I am FOR the daughter going to an international school, not against. I am against the daughter trying to make it in a French school. Big difference. I think the international schools are wonderful. The mom is the one who thinks they are not wonderful.

DalaiLlama

Ok, gotcha. My point:
All-French-immersion-only = vote No.
International school (English-only) = vote No.
International school with lots of French immersion around it = vote YES.
Einverstanden?

Mainhattengirl

Jawohl!

Clarin

Oh wise DalaiLlama, you've made it all sound so delightful, so peaceful and serene. I feel I've just experienced a "guided meditation" of our first year in Paris.

Though you say "she will need private lessons on the side, and tutoring ..." Are you suggesting that even at an International school she would require significant outside assistance to keep up?

You're right - it is daunting at this point since it's still so abstract, new and unknown. I certainly appreciate your wisdom, kind words & encouragement.

Phinn

From the point of view of an expat parent whose children are bilingual(Fr/Eng) and who were in the Fr. system until switching to an American Int'l school in Grade 9, I would say the chances of your daughter surviving in an all- French lycee are very slim indeed! The lycee is not geared to making outsiders feel at home, nor are any allowances made for children whose mother tongue is not French. Staff seem to regard anyone who deviates from the norm as problematic, so no special help can be expected from that quarter and indeed, most would consider same 'way beyond their call of duty!
You have not told us how your daughter feels about this proposition: HER attitude is key! If she is not esp. thrilled at the idea of leaving her friends to go abroad at this crucial time in her education, all your best plans may fall apart, while she might even lose a year of
schooling. Who's more eager to pursue this option, is it your daughter or only you, the parents?!

BTW, when the time comes, you might want to consider Montreal's McGill University, right up there with the top-ranking others but a lot less hypped!