Have you found travel a religious experience?
Jul 12th, 2004, 10:06 PM
#41
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>>At the same time I worry that the ability to believe firmly in something that's incapable of proof one way or the other can create a mindset ready-made to accept other, more harmful, beliefs. I find claims to know what "God" likes or wants, based on interpretations of writings by ancient scribes, very strange indeed<<
I think only people who don't have a brain will take everything at face value. I strongly believe in God, in all his/her shapes and names. I was raised a Catholic and still think of myself as a Catholic, as my parents do as well. However, that doesn't mean that we believe that birth control shouldn't be used, that people should stay married forever even if the marriage simply isn't working. When people think that all Catholics believe in everything of the church like zombies, it does irritate me.
Bringing in back to travel, I find it so ignorant of people who say that the Vatican should give away all their wealth to charity or something as idiotic as that. The Vatican brings so many tourists and $ to Italy that so many of its citizens reap the benefits.
I think only people who don't have a brain will take everything at face value. I strongly believe in God, in all his/her shapes and names. I was raised a Catholic and still think of myself as a Catholic, as my parents do as well. However, that doesn't mean that we believe that birth control shouldn't be used, that people should stay married forever even if the marriage simply isn't working. When people think that all Catholics believe in everything of the church like zombies, it does irritate me.
Bringing in back to travel, I find it so ignorant of people who say that the Vatican should give away all their wealth to charity or something as idiotic as that. The Vatican brings so many tourists and $ to Italy that so many of its citizens reap the benefits.
Jul 12th, 2004, 11:29 PM
#42
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Neil:
The ethnic cleansing issue:
You're right that the Irish and Yugoslav problems are normally described as tribal. But in Ireland a significant part of the "kill the people down the road" rhetoric came from clerics (though in fairness, Catholic or Church of Ireland priests were more guilty of sins of omission than the worst sort of rabble-rousing, which was mainly the preserve of Protestant fundamentalist clergy). And the torrent of bile that came from these clerics was as much about the Papacy and transubstantiation as it was about the threats to the Protestant way of life from Fenian rebels.
At the height of the Troubles, I spent some time as part of my job talking to people who'd been affected. Their anger at the bomb or shooting often included hatred for the filthy heathen as much as anger at having been shot.
And one of the most common concerns among Protestants was Catholic discipline. Prods really did fear that the Tagues would outbreed them and turn the North into a theocracy (which, after all, was what the South was from Independence to the 1970s, and until very recently the Catholics were indeed outbreeding).
Religion can't solely be blamed for the horrors of Europe's recent tribal wars. But it's an essential part of the brew that led to, and sustained, these wars.
Religion can be moderately benign. It can also motivate people to extraordinary actions. Those actions can just as easily be bestial as altruistic.
The ethnic cleansing issue:
You're right that the Irish and Yugoslav problems are normally described as tribal. But in Ireland a significant part of the "kill the people down the road" rhetoric came from clerics (though in fairness, Catholic or Church of Ireland priests were more guilty of sins of omission than the worst sort of rabble-rousing, which was mainly the preserve of Protestant fundamentalist clergy). And the torrent of bile that came from these clerics was as much about the Papacy and transubstantiation as it was about the threats to the Protestant way of life from Fenian rebels.
At the height of the Troubles, I spent some time as part of my job talking to people who'd been affected. Their anger at the bomb or shooting often included hatred for the filthy heathen as much as anger at having been shot.
And one of the most common concerns among Protestants was Catholic discipline. Prods really did fear that the Tagues would outbreed them and turn the North into a theocracy (which, after all, was what the South was from Independence to the 1970s, and until very recently the Catholics were indeed outbreeding).
Religion can't solely be blamed for the horrors of Europe's recent tribal wars. But it's an essential part of the brew that led to, and sustained, these wars.
Religion can be moderately benign. It can also motivate people to extraordinary actions. Those actions can just as easily be bestial as altruistic.
Jul 13th, 2004, 12:05 AM
#43
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Thanks for those 14 precepts, Mimi. Oh, that everyone could follow the first one: "<i>Do not be idolatrous about or bound to any doctrine, theory, or ideology</i>, even Buddhist ones. All systems of thought are guiding means; they are not absolute truth"
__________
Thanks, elle. If the nickname of Toulouse is <i>La Ville Rose</i>, then I suspect you're right, that both it and Albi got their red brick from the same source. I <i>love</i> the limestone in France but, because I've seen so much of it there, would enjoy a change of pace in a place like Albi, or Toulouse.
I recall reading that chilling comment by the the Abbot of Citeaux, "Kill them all, God will know his own."
Since we're on the subject of religion and France, I'm reminded of something I posted about here before, what happened in the French village of Le Chambon-sur-Lignon during WWII (as documented in the film <i>Weapons of the Spirit</i>: http://www.chambon.org/weapons_en.htm)
As the website above notes...
Le Chambon-sur-Lignon was a tiny Protestant farming village in the mountains of south-central France. Defying the Nazis and the French government that was collaborating with the Nazis, the villagers of the area of Le Chambon provided a safe haven throughout the war for whoever knocked on their door.
Most of the villagers were proud descendants of the Huguenots, first Protestants in Catholic France. <i>They remembered their own history of persecution, and it mattered to them.</i> They also read the Bible, and tried to heed the admonition to love your neighbor as yourself.
?The responsibility of Christians,? their pastor, André Trocmé, had reminded them the day after France surrendered to Nazi Germany, ?is to resist the violence that will be brought to bear on their consciences through the weapons of the spirit.?
This is a wonderful example of the <i>positive</i> aspect of religion. And the fact that the people in this village remembered their own history of persecution and acted in a positive way, is what makes me so puzzled that Christians in Rome, who surely must've remembered <i>their</i> history of persecution, would act in such a negative way toward the Jews, back when they were restricted to the Ghetto by Pope Paul IV. Sure it was an individual, the Pope, who made the decree, but others could have objected.
__________
Neil, John Shelby Spong is another of my heros. I have his book <i>Here I Stand.</i> To me, he epitomizes loving, compassionate, understanding, forgiving Christianity. Thanks for starting this thread (and thanks to Fodors for letting it remain.)
__________
flanneruk, thanks for that information. Very interesting.
__________
Thanks, elle. If the nickname of Toulouse is <i>La Ville Rose</i>, then I suspect you're right, that both it and Albi got their red brick from the same source. I <i>love</i> the limestone in France but, because I've seen so much of it there, would enjoy a change of pace in a place like Albi, or Toulouse.
I recall reading that chilling comment by the the Abbot of Citeaux, "Kill them all, God will know his own."
Since we're on the subject of religion and France, I'm reminded of something I posted about here before, what happened in the French village of Le Chambon-sur-Lignon during WWII (as documented in the film <i>Weapons of the Spirit</i>: http://www.chambon.org/weapons_en.htm)
As the website above notes...
Le Chambon-sur-Lignon was a tiny Protestant farming village in the mountains of south-central France. Defying the Nazis and the French government that was collaborating with the Nazis, the villagers of the area of Le Chambon provided a safe haven throughout the war for whoever knocked on their door.
Most of the villagers were proud descendants of the Huguenots, first Protestants in Catholic France. <i>They remembered their own history of persecution, and it mattered to them.</i> They also read the Bible, and tried to heed the admonition to love your neighbor as yourself.
?The responsibility of Christians,? their pastor, André Trocmé, had reminded them the day after France surrendered to Nazi Germany, ?is to resist the violence that will be brought to bear on their consciences through the weapons of the spirit.?
This is a wonderful example of the <i>positive</i> aspect of religion. And the fact that the people in this village remembered their own history of persecution and acted in a positive way, is what makes me so puzzled that Christians in Rome, who surely must've remembered <i>their</i> history of persecution, would act in such a negative way toward the Jews, back when they were restricted to the Ghetto by Pope Paul IV. Sure it was an individual, the Pope, who made the decree, but others could have objected.
__________
Neil, John Shelby Spong is another of my heros. I have his book <i>Here I Stand.</i> To me, he epitomizes loving, compassionate, understanding, forgiving Christianity. Thanks for starting this thread (and thanks to Fodors for letting it remain.)
__________
flanneruk, thanks for that information. Very interesting.
Jul 13th, 2004, 02:52 AM
#44
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flanneruk, thanks for that on-the-ground insight - mine is a view from a distant shore. We're probably "in violent agreement", though, as a friend of mine likes to say. My point (I think) was only that the troubles started as a territorial conflict and were perpetuated by cultural/ religious differences. By the 19th century the bitter sense of persecution nursed by the Irish (not without cause) had transferred itself to this side of the world and manifested itself in that sterile "Prod vs Mick" mindset. An interesting sub-plot here was a basically Irish Catholic movement in the 1950s dedicated to turning the Australian Labor Party into a clone of the European Christian Democrat parties. They failed, but the resultant schism guaranteed conservative rule for many years.
And capo, a great story about that Huguenot village. BTW, when I finally get to France (it's been a long time coming - keep getting sidetracked in Asia) one of my aims is to explore the Languedoc, ever since I first read about the Cathars. If I've got this right, their inclination towards female equality must have seemed like another serious affront to the right order of things. Come to think of it, that didn't help the English Shakers much, either.
I too am grateful for Fodors' forbearance. I guess the absence of spite in this thread has helped, a credit to all when the subject is politics or religion (but are there any more important subjects?)
And capo, a great story about that Huguenot village. BTW, when I finally get to France (it's been a long time coming - keep getting sidetracked in Asia) one of my aims is to explore the Languedoc, ever since I first read about the Cathars. If I've got this right, their inclination towards female equality must have seemed like another serious affront to the right order of things. Come to think of it, that didn't help the English Shakers much, either.
I too am grateful for Fodors' forbearance. I guess the absence of spite in this thread has helped, a credit to all when the subject is politics or religion (but are there any more important subjects?)
Jul 13th, 2004, 03:05 AM
#45
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I've often found that the "human face of God" one encounters early in life has a big impact on one's lifelong views of religion. My father in law grew up in Nazi Germany and the hypocrisy and blind eye to cruelty he saw there in the churches turned him firmly away from organized religion. (Which doesn't mean he isn't a very spiritual person, because he is.) OTOH, I grew up attending a church led by a very enlightened, thoughtful, and warm minister so that I have a more positive view of organized religion. The minister of the Lutheran church we attended in Vancouver, WA, was also an excellent "shepherd" for his flock, with a keen interest in history and a gifted knack for explaining both the historical context of the Bible and its modern applications (along with detours such as the religious reasons why Dijon became synonomous with mustard).
Jul 13th, 2004, 06:30 AM
#46
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Yes, this is an interesting discussion, and I do believe it is related to travel. What is travel if not a means of education and inspiration?
Capo has pointed to the miracle at Le Chambon and if you go to the website itself (not film) at www.chambon.org you will read about the visit there just recently by President Chirac and his inspiring speech. I remember reading the book about this remarkable village some years ago. When asked by Bill Moyers in an interview about how Christian were these villagers, a response was that these folks were motivated by Christian values and simply did the right thing in protecting Jews from persecution.
Bill in the Ozarks
Capo has pointed to the miracle at Le Chambon and if you go to the website itself (not film) at www.chambon.org you will read about the visit there just recently by President Chirac and his inspiring speech. I remember reading the book about this remarkable village some years ago. When asked by Bill Moyers in an interview about how Christian were these villagers, a response was that these folks were motivated by Christian values and simply did the right thing in protecting Jews from persecution.
Bill in the Ozarks
Jul 13th, 2004, 06:35 AM
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The Religious part for me is usually when the plane is taking off and landing and I make all these bargains with God to get me there safely~
Often, when travelling, I find myself thinking that someone (GOD?) did some kind of wonderful job creating these places we are able to go to and I appreciate the world and nature more. It is also fascinating to see how the people of other countries practice their own religion and to see some of the amazing monuments to their religions.
I think I would be a Buddhist if I had the backbone for it..
As far as a formal religion, I was raised in a few & belong to none.
Often, when travelling, I find myself thinking that someone (GOD?) did some kind of wonderful job creating these places we are able to go to and I appreciate the world and nature more. It is also fascinating to see how the people of other countries practice their own religion and to see some of the amazing monuments to their religions.
I think I would be a Buddhist if I had the backbone for it..
As far as a formal religion, I was raised in a few & belong to none.
Jul 13th, 2004, 06:48 AM
#48
Back to the Hoocaust: I'd like to recommend a book, "Rescuing the Children." A Holocaust Memoir by Vivette Samual, a member of OSE (Euvre de Secours aux enfants. Elie Wiesel was one of the 400 children Of Buchenwald in June, 1945 that the OSE saved.
Jul 13th, 2004, 07:30 AM
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I was raised Catholic and recently became an Episcopalian. One of the things I love about traveling in Europe is experiencing a sense of connection with the early Christians. I remember visiting St. Canice Cathedral in Kilkenny, Ireland, and reading the front sign: "Site of Christian worship since 600 AD" (or something along those lines). It just gave me chills.
Jul 13th, 2004, 06:21 PM
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I can't resist passing on the news that the Danish government (which employs the country's Lutheran clergy) has decided to suspend the Rev. Thorkild Grosboell for denying the existence of God. Can't imagine why.
Jul 14th, 2004, 10:58 AM
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Very funny, Neil!
I don't believe in the <i>conventional</i> idea of God -- as "Him" or an entity -- but I do believe in the idea of "God" as the powerful force we call "Love." In fact, to me, the Bible verse that says it all is "<i>He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.</i>" To me, that ties directly in with the concept that one only comes to "God" (Love) through Jesus (loving, and forgiveness). I mean, regardless of your religion, doesn't that make sense? Isn't that kind of a universal truth that transcends religion? How can one know, or experience, Love if one isn't capable of loving?
<i>And capo, a great story about that Huguenot village. . . . If I've got this right, [the Cathars'] inclination towards female equality must have seemed like another serious affront to the right order of things. Come to think of it, that didn't help the English Shakers much, either.</i>
Oui! A very moving story about Le Chambon. If the Cathars, in fact, did have an inclination towards female equality then, you're right, I'm sure that was -- as you put it -- a serious affront to the right order of things. They were, after all, considered "heretical."
The English Shakers also believed in, at least somewhat, female equality? I wonder if the Quakers were related to the Shakers? In Ken Burns' excellent PBS documentary on Susan B. Anthony & Elizabeth Cady Stanton -- the two women primarily responsible for women's suffrage in the U.S. -- he mentions how Anthony came from a Quaker family, and that her religion, unlike many others at the time, taught that women were equal to men. That's one of the reasons she fought so fiercely for the right to vote for women. I'm not sure what Stanton's religious background was but she was so disgusted by what she saw as male-bias in the Christian religion that she wrote a version of the Bible called <i>The Woman's Bible</i>.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/wmn/wb/
I don't believe in the <i>conventional</i> idea of God -- as "Him" or an entity -- but I do believe in the idea of "God" as the powerful force we call "Love." In fact, to me, the Bible verse that says it all is "<i>He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.</i>" To me, that ties directly in with the concept that one only comes to "God" (Love) through Jesus (loving, and forgiveness). I mean, regardless of your religion, doesn't that make sense? Isn't that kind of a universal truth that transcends religion? How can one know, or experience, Love if one isn't capable of loving?
<i>And capo, a great story about that Huguenot village. . . . If I've got this right, [the Cathars'] inclination towards female equality must have seemed like another serious affront to the right order of things. Come to think of it, that didn't help the English Shakers much, either.</i>
Oui! A very moving story about Le Chambon. If the Cathars, in fact, did have an inclination towards female equality then, you're right, I'm sure that was -- as you put it -- a serious affront to the right order of things. They were, after all, considered "heretical."
The English Shakers also believed in, at least somewhat, female equality? I wonder if the Quakers were related to the Shakers? In Ken Burns' excellent PBS documentary on Susan B. Anthony & Elizabeth Cady Stanton -- the two women primarily responsible for women's suffrage in the U.S. -- he mentions how Anthony came from a Quaker family, and that her religion, unlike many others at the time, taught that women were equal to men. That's one of the reasons she fought so fiercely for the right to vote for women. I'm not sure what Stanton's religious background was but she was so disgusted by what she saw as male-bias in the Christian religion that she wrote a version of the Bible called <i>The Woman's Bible</i>.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/wmn/wb/
Jul 14th, 2004, 11:06 AM
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I visited Assisi last May. I would describe myself more as a spiritual person than as a religious person. I felt true elation while visiting some of the sites of that town. The feeling definitely felt more religious than intellectual.
Jul 14th, 2004, 11:19 AM
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Amen to developing our spirituality!
Jesus and his followers were spiritual minded and weren't even of the Christian religion!
We can get spiritual experiences on our travels or at home and the kick is keeping that feeling without external events! Yoga 101
Jesus and his followers were spiritual minded and weren't even of the Christian religion!
We can get spiritual experiences on our travels or at home and the kick is keeping that feeling without external events! Yoga 101
Jul 14th, 2004, 11:20 AM
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I'm glad you brought up Assisi. Standing before St Francis' tomb is probably the closest I've ever got to a spiritual experience. Whilst I don't believe in a "God", I do have faith in "good" people, and I have immense respect for St Francis (putting aside his rather disturbing attitude towards women - but I'll dismiss that as his medieval upbringing!)
Jul 14th, 2004, 11:43 AM
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I like that, medieval upbringing! It can account for alot of things, can't it?
I forgot to write my spiritual experience.
It was at the Matterhorn. I was near Gornergrat (sp?) and it was a cloudy day and getting ready to storm so I was planning on going back to Zermatt soon.
I sat by myself crosslegged on one of the cliffs breathing in the pure air and watched the storm clouds roll in from over Italy. All of a sudden the dark clouds parted and there was the Matterhorn peak! It was like the clouds were forming an ethereal frame just for me, I was about the only on the mountain. It was such a moving experience, I can't even describe it. All I needed was some organ music and I would have metaphorically climbed Jacob's ladder.
(I bet you thought I was going to say I was struck by lightening!)
I forgot to write my spiritual experience.
It was at the Matterhorn. I was near Gornergrat (sp?) and it was a cloudy day and getting ready to storm so I was planning on going back to Zermatt soon.
I sat by myself crosslegged on one of the cliffs breathing in the pure air and watched the storm clouds roll in from over Italy. All of a sudden the dark clouds parted and there was the Matterhorn peak! It was like the clouds were forming an ethereal frame just for me, I was about the only on the mountain. It was such a moving experience, I can't even describe it. All I needed was some organ music and I would have metaphorically climbed Jacob's ladder.
(I bet you thought I was going to say I was struck by lightening!)
Jul 14th, 2004, 12:19 PM
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I too agree that there is a difference between religion and spirituality (though for the devout, the two are often inextricably combined), and have had my share of many spiritual experiences while travelling. From the awesome beauty of a blood red sunset over a crashing sea on a deserted beach to small kindnesses found amid abject poverty and despair. All it takes is to observe the view down the valley from Macchu Picchu and then look up at the grandeur even higher from where one is standing up to realise how insignificant one really is in the grand scheme of things. I've also had some downright uncanny travel occurrences that were too obscure to deny that anything but the hand of God could've played a part in them.
Whether being a practicing Catholic (of the kind lyb described above) has anything to do with it or not, I don't know, but I enjoy visiting ancient churches and places of worship while travelling, and have an eclectic photographic collection as a result. There is something to be said about standing in a place with a huge emotional past. I am also moved by religious art and fascinated by the architecture (mainly Gothic as they tend to be, except in wonderful Barcelona) as well as the devotion of worshippers past and all they endured in the name of their faith. That takes some guts. Having questioned and argued my own beliefs - even strengthened them in the process perhaps - I truly believe that it comes down to a matter of faith.
Later this year, I'm planning a day trip to Medugorje from Dubrovnik. With an open mind, I'm looking forward to it.
I was expecting the lightening bit Sea Urchin !
Capo : Here's another favourite bible quote (Paul to the Corinthians) :
Be ambitious for the higher gifts. And I am going to show you a way that is better than any of them.
If I have the eloquence of men or of angels, but speak without love, I am simply a gong booming or a cymbal clashing. If I have the gift of prophecy, understanding all the mysteries there are, and knowing everything, and if I have faith in all its fullness, to move mountains, but without love, then I am nothing at all. If I give away all that I possess, piece by piece, and if I let them take my body to burn it, but am without love, it will do me no good whatever.
Love is always patient and kind; it is never jealous; love is never boastful or conceited; it is never rude or selfish; it does not take offence and is not resentful. Love takes no pleasure in other people?s sins but delights in the truth, it is always ready to excuse, to trust to hope and to endure whatever comes.
Love does not come to an end.
Whether being a practicing Catholic (of the kind lyb described above) has anything to do with it or not, I don't know, but I enjoy visiting ancient churches and places of worship while travelling, and have an eclectic photographic collection as a result. There is something to be said about standing in a place with a huge emotional past. I am also moved by religious art and fascinated by the architecture (mainly Gothic as they tend to be, except in wonderful Barcelona) as well as the devotion of worshippers past and all they endured in the name of their faith. That takes some guts. Having questioned and argued my own beliefs - even strengthened them in the process perhaps - I truly believe that it comes down to a matter of faith.
Later this year, I'm planning a day trip to Medugorje from Dubrovnik. With an open mind, I'm looking forward to it.
I was expecting the lightening bit Sea Urchin !
Capo : Here's another favourite bible quote (Paul to the Corinthians) :
Be ambitious for the higher gifts. And I am going to show you a way that is better than any of them.
If I have the eloquence of men or of angels, but speak without love, I am simply a gong booming or a cymbal clashing. If I have the gift of prophecy, understanding all the mysteries there are, and knowing everything, and if I have faith in all its fullness, to move mountains, but without love, then I am nothing at all. If I give away all that I possess, piece by piece, and if I let them take my body to burn it, but am without love, it will do me no good whatever.
Love is always patient and kind; it is never jealous; love is never boastful or conceited; it is never rude or selfish; it does not take offence and is not resentful. Love takes no pleasure in other people?s sins but delights in the truth, it is always ready to excuse, to trust to hope and to endure whatever comes.
Love does not come to an end.
