Have you found travel a religious experience?
Jul 12th, 2004, 12:54 PM
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What an interesting post Gardyloo, I enjoyed reading your views very much..
I cant say that i have found any religious experience in my travels.
Of course, I grew up in Rome and since I was a child I took the beautiful Churches for granted, also it was never a big deal for me to have the Pope ..(the Bishop of Rome) residing in our city .. It was always a natural thing for me .. Took it for granted..
Religion is something very personal, it must come from the Heart and soul.If one believes deeply does not matter in what religion he or she is praying.
I cant say that i have found any religious experience in my travels.
Of course, I grew up in Rome and since I was a child I took the beautiful Churches for granted, also it was never a big deal for me to have the Pope ..(the Bishop of Rome) residing in our city .. It was always a natural thing for me .. Took it for granted..
Religion is something very personal, it must come from the Heart and soul.If one believes deeply does not matter in what religion he or she is praying.
Jul 12th, 2004, 01:00 PM
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nocinonut, I think it would be <i>wonderful</i> if all denominations within religions, or all religions, taught that a loving Creator does not favor any one denomination, religion, or group of people. Sadly, that is not the case.
Jocelyn, I didn't mean to give the impresssion I think that religion has been responsible for only horrors and injustices. Far from it. But I also don't think you can simply dismiss the horrors and injustices throughout history as merely the wrong-headed doings of individuals and groups. When any group of people is taught that they are somehow superior to another group, more favored by God, then is a natural <i>tendency</i> for an us (good) vs. them (bad) mentality to develop. And it is precisely that mentality that gives birth to horrors and injustices.
Look, for example, at hate crimes committed against gays & lesbians. True, these acts are committed by individuals, but can you honestly say that centuries of <i>official</i> condemnation -- official condemnation which continues to this very day -- play no part whatsoever in this?
Or, for another example, even if Hitler was not a religious man himself, would his denunciatons of Jews have found such resonance, would his seeds of hatred have found such fertile soil, if Jews had not <i>officially</i> been condemned as as "Christ-killers" for so much of history?
<i>Many wonderful things</i> have been done -- and continue to be done -- by religious people, from religious people dedicating their lives helping poor people in Africa to Catholic priests who were in the forefront of civil rights marches in the South in the 60s, <i>fighting</i> injustice.
Interesting, Rufus. If I was ever going to choose a religion, I think it would be Buddhism. In a wonderful little book I have called <i>Life: A User's Manual. Great Minds on the Big Questions</i>, there is a piece called "Be Still and Know" by Thich Nhat Hanh, a Vietnamese Buddhist monk (hhttp://www.seaox.com/thich.html)
In it he mentions having shared the Eucharist with Father Daniel Berrigan and notes that "some of the Buddhists present [at a conference of theologians and professors of religion] were shocked that I had participated in the Eucharist, and many Christians seemed truly horrified." But then he goes on to say "To me, religious life is life. I do not see any reason to spend one's whole life tasting just one kind of fruit [i.e. religion]. We human beings can be nourished by the best values of many traditions."
Futhermore, he goes on to essentially echo what I said in my comments above, to Jocelyn. He writes...
"Professor Hans Kunig has said, '<i>Until there is peace between religions, there can be no peace in the world.</i>' People kill and are killed because they cling too tightly to their own beliefs and ideologies. When we believe that ours is the only faith that contains the truth, violence and suffering will surely be the result."
Jocelyn, I didn't mean to give the impresssion I think that religion has been responsible for only horrors and injustices. Far from it. But I also don't think you can simply dismiss the horrors and injustices throughout history as merely the wrong-headed doings of individuals and groups. When any group of people is taught that they are somehow superior to another group, more favored by God, then is a natural <i>tendency</i> for an us (good) vs. them (bad) mentality to develop. And it is precisely that mentality that gives birth to horrors and injustices.
Look, for example, at hate crimes committed against gays & lesbians. True, these acts are committed by individuals, but can you honestly say that centuries of <i>official</i> condemnation -- official condemnation which continues to this very day -- play no part whatsoever in this?
Or, for another example, even if Hitler was not a religious man himself, would his denunciatons of Jews have found such resonance, would his seeds of hatred have found such fertile soil, if Jews had not <i>officially</i> been condemned as as "Christ-killers" for so much of history?
<i>Many wonderful things</i> have been done -- and continue to be done -- by religious people, from religious people dedicating their lives helping poor people in Africa to Catholic priests who were in the forefront of civil rights marches in the South in the 60s, <i>fighting</i> injustice.
Interesting, Rufus. If I was ever going to choose a religion, I think it would be Buddhism. In a wonderful little book I have called <i>Life: A User's Manual. Great Minds on the Big Questions</i>, there is a piece called "Be Still and Know" by Thich Nhat Hanh, a Vietnamese Buddhist monk (hhttp://www.seaox.com/thich.html)
In it he mentions having shared the Eucharist with Father Daniel Berrigan and notes that "some of the Buddhists present [at a conference of theologians and professors of religion] were shocked that I had participated in the Eucharist, and many Christians seemed truly horrified." But then he goes on to say "To me, religious life is life. I do not see any reason to spend one's whole life tasting just one kind of fruit [i.e. religion]. We human beings can be nourished by the best values of many traditions."
Futhermore, he goes on to essentially echo what I said in my comments above, to Jocelyn. He writes...
"Professor Hans Kunig has said, '<i>Until there is peace between religions, there can be no peace in the world.</i>' People kill and are killed because they cling too tightly to their own beliefs and ideologies. When we believe that ours is the only faith that contains the truth, violence and suffering will surely be the result."
Jul 12th, 2004, 01:20 PM
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capo,
You bring up a lot of valid issues, ones that I've struggled with as well. I have a book that you (or someone else out there) may be interested in reading. It's called "A Case for Faith," written by Lee Strobel, the former legal editor of the Chicago Tribune (I believe). When he wrote his first book, "A Case for Christ," he was an atheist, intent on discrediting the Christian Church. Through his research he became a believer. He addresses questions like: how can a loving God allow suffering in the world or send people to hell; how can Christians claim Jesus is the only way to God; why is Christian history filled with violence; how can God order the killing of children in the Old Testament; and doesn't evolution explain where life came from. It's an interesting read, no matter what you believe.
You bring up a lot of valid issues, ones that I've struggled with as well. I have a book that you (or someone else out there) may be interested in reading. It's called "A Case for Faith," written by Lee Strobel, the former legal editor of the Chicago Tribune (I believe). When he wrote his first book, "A Case for Christ," he was an atheist, intent on discrediting the Christian Church. Through his research he became a believer. He addresses questions like: how can a loving God allow suffering in the world or send people to hell; how can Christians claim Jesus is the only way to God; why is Christian history filled with violence; how can God order the killing of children in the Old Testament; and doesn't evolution explain where life came from. It's an interesting read, no matter what you believe.
Jul 12th, 2004, 01:30 PM
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Interesting thread. As a retired minister, I do have a religious inclination...sorry capo my friend.
But my outlook is constantly widening beyond my Middle Western Protestant views. This comes about through reading, discussions, and travel also.
In traveling being in a cathedral is often inspiring as also is a fjord or choral concert or Celtic chapel/holy site. In many cases I would say my religious life is simply enriched by exposure to things in travel. Yes, years ago I was moved by sights in the Holy Land but equally in ancient Greece and Spain. This on top of exploring Shaker and Amish places in the U. S.
On this level religion is simply a personal feeling of appreciation for life and beauty. Of course, the Christian faith is much more and this means an ethical dimension. Some of you have touched on the question of how our views on religion here compared with elsewhere. We in the U. S. may claim to be quite religious but in some European countries where worship is a minimum there exists a certain basic ethic of caring for others which I find more religious in a sense.
Bill in the Ozarks
But my outlook is constantly widening beyond my Middle Western Protestant views. This comes about through reading, discussions, and travel also.
In traveling being in a cathedral is often inspiring as also is a fjord or choral concert or Celtic chapel/holy site. In many cases I would say my religious life is simply enriched by exposure to things in travel. Yes, years ago I was moved by sights in the Holy Land but equally in ancient Greece and Spain. This on top of exploring Shaker and Amish places in the U. S.
On this level religion is simply a personal feeling of appreciation for life and beauty. Of course, the Christian faith is much more and this means an ethical dimension. Some of you have touched on the question of how our views on religion here compared with elsewhere. We in the U. S. may claim to be quite religious but in some European countries where worship is a minimum there exists a certain basic ethic of caring for others which I find more religious in a sense.
Bill in the Ozarks
Jul 12th, 2004, 01:38 PM
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One salient feature of Buddhism that helped sway me is its refusal to define a "god" or "gods." The nature of whatever god or gods may exist is not knowable, and it is not necessary to know in order to lead a proper life.
Jul 12th, 2004, 02:26 PM
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<i>...intent on discrediting the Christian Church. Through his research he became a believer. He addresses questions like: how can a loving God allow suffering in the world or send people to hell; how can Christians claim Jesus is the only way to God</i>
Thanks, Jocelyn. I'd never discredit any church, denomination or religion, per se. If I'm trying to discredit anything, it's the <i>notion</i> that -- as Thich Nhat Hanh put it -- "[a faith] is the only faith that contains the truth." I have no problem with the notion that Jesus is <i>a</i> "way to God", or "the only way to God" <i>for some people</i>. I have a HUGE problem with the notion that Jesus is "the only way to God" for <i>all</i> people.
At the risk of sparking a theological brouhaha here, and getting the thread shut down, I see Jesus's famous words, "no man cometh unto the Father, but by me" -- the primary source, in my understanding, of the "only way to God" notion -- as metaphorical, not literal. To me, what Jesus meant there is that one cannot know Love (i.e. God) unless one loves.
Thanks, Jocelyn. I'd never discredit any church, denomination or religion, per se. If I'm trying to discredit anything, it's the <i>notion</i> that -- as Thich Nhat Hanh put it -- "[a faith] is the only faith that contains the truth." I have no problem with the notion that Jesus is <i>a</i> "way to God", or "the only way to God" <i>for some people</i>. I have a HUGE problem with the notion that Jesus is "the only way to God" for <i>all</i> people.
At the risk of sparking a theological brouhaha here, and getting the thread shut down, I see Jesus's famous words, "no man cometh unto the Father, but by me" -- the primary source, in my understanding, of the "only way to God" notion -- as metaphorical, not literal. To me, what Jesus meant there is that one cannot know Love (i.e. God) unless one loves.
Jul 12th, 2004, 02:41 PM
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Capo, what you quoted is what alot of religious people think, that Jesus was speaking metaphorically. So you do believe in the teachings just not in the worship? Religion may be in a building but spirituality is everywhere.
Jul 12th, 2004, 03:13 PM
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Good point, you don't have to be religious to be spiritual.
I say silent prayers pretty often for guidance and for gratitude and I haven't attended a church service in a long time.
I just can't look at all the beauty of life and of the Earth and our galaxy and not have it become a spiritual experience.
So in answer to the original question, yes, I have found travel a spiritual experience, because I turn my thoughts that way.
I say silent prayers pretty often for guidance and for gratitude and I haven't attended a church service in a long time.
I just can't look at all the beauty of life and of the Earth and our galaxy and not have it become a spiritual experience.
So in answer to the original question, yes, I have found travel a spiritual experience, because I turn my thoughts that way.
Jul 12th, 2004, 03:34 PM
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<i>He addresses questions like: how can a loving God allow suffering in the world</i>
Jocelyn, that reminds me of something. In the early 90s, I briefly dated a woman from NYC who had come out to Seattle to go to Bastyr University, to become a naturopathic physican. Although she wanted to remain in the Seattle area she wanted even more to bring the "naturopathic gospel" back to the East Coast, so she ended up setting up a practice in Mystic, CT, in 1994. In September 1998, she was heading to visit her only sibling, a sister married to a Frenchman and living in France, when the plane she was on, a Swissair flight, crashed near Halifax, killing everyone aboard.
So here was a woman who had given up a lucrative real estate practice in Manhattan to dedicate her life to helping people via naturopathic medicine...and she gets killed in a freak accident. Things like that sure make you wonder: Why?
A month later, in mid-October, I was in Nice and drove up to the perched village of Peillon very early on a Sunday morning. Climbing to the top of the village, I discovered a small little square, in front of an equally small church. No other tourists (yet); just a few cats and the soft whisper of the wind through the trees. I sat down on a bench and thought of this woman, thought of how her life was tragically cut so short, how that can happen to any one of us, at any time without warning. I'll aways remember that morning in Peillon.
Why? I think that's a question that great minds have always sought to answer. But never can.
Jocelyn, that reminds me of something. In the early 90s, I briefly dated a woman from NYC who had come out to Seattle to go to Bastyr University, to become a naturopathic physican. Although she wanted to remain in the Seattle area she wanted even more to bring the "naturopathic gospel" back to the East Coast, so she ended up setting up a practice in Mystic, CT, in 1994. In September 1998, she was heading to visit her only sibling, a sister married to a Frenchman and living in France, when the plane she was on, a Swissair flight, crashed near Halifax, killing everyone aboard.
So here was a woman who had given up a lucrative real estate practice in Manhattan to dedicate her life to helping people via naturopathic medicine...and she gets killed in a freak accident. Things like that sure make you wonder: Why?
A month later, in mid-October, I was in Nice and drove up to the perched village of Peillon very early on a Sunday morning. Climbing to the top of the village, I discovered a small little square, in front of an equally small church. No other tourists (yet); just a few cats and the soft whisper of the wind through the trees. I sat down on a bench and thought of this woman, thought of how her life was tragically cut so short, how that can happen to any one of us, at any time without warning. I'll aways remember that morning in Peillon.
Why? I think that's a question that great minds have always sought to answer. But never can.
Jul 12th, 2004, 03:56 PM
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Capo, is sad but this is part of life..
We always know where we are born, but we never know where we are going to die..I was born in Rome, now I live in the USA, but I will never know where or in what country I will meet the Maker..
I dont think that God wants US to suffer, but he gave Us free will and we decide what we are going to do with our life..
Nobody know what is going to happens someday..perhaps is a blessing not knowing , it gives US peace of mind..
Thats the reason that every day we are alive is a Blessings and we should make the best of it..
We always know where we are born, but we never know where we are going to die..I was born in Rome, now I live in the USA, but I will never know where or in what country I will meet the Maker..
I dont think that God wants US to suffer, but he gave Us free will and we decide what we are going to do with our life..
Nobody know what is going to happens someday..perhaps is a blessing not knowing , it gives US peace of mind..
Thats the reason that every day we are alive is a Blessings and we should make the best of it..
Jul 12th, 2004, 04:03 PM
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capo,
I certainly do not claim to have all of the (any?) answers. Trust me, some horrifying things have happened in my own family that have made me question my faith. What I can tell you is that I have seen God do some amazing things from some really bad situations. Sometimes the answers don't come until years later, or we may have to wait until we meet our maker face-to-face. I continue to have faith that the answers will come in due time.
As far as interpreting John 3:16 as metaphorical...the Bible is indeed very cryptic, and if you take one verse out of context you can make it say just about whatever you want it to say. The thing is, this is not an isolated theme. The words "Redeemer" and "Savior," along with many others along that line, appear throughout the New Testament in reference to Jesus.
Oh, and yes, I am an educated person.
I certainly do not claim to have all of the (any?) answers. Trust me, some horrifying things have happened in my own family that have made me question my faith. What I can tell you is that I have seen God do some amazing things from some really bad situations. Sometimes the answers don't come until years later, or we may have to wait until we meet our maker face-to-face. I continue to have faith that the answers will come in due time.
As far as interpreting John 3:16 as metaphorical...the Bible is indeed very cryptic, and if you take one verse out of context you can make it say just about whatever you want it to say. The thing is, this is not an isolated theme. The words "Redeemer" and "Savior," along with many others along that line, appear throughout the New Testament in reference to Jesus.
Oh, and yes, I am an educated person.
Jul 12th, 2004, 04:14 PM
#33
I think it would be nice for some to know, to make them accelerate plans or simply to mend fences and forgive their enemies. Things most people do not do.
To hear the call of a bird first thing in the morning is a delight but ignored by most.
"I'd rather learn from one bird how to sing
than teach ten thousand stars how not to dance."
To hear the call of a bird first thing in the morning is a delight but ignored by most.
"I'd rather learn from one bird how to sing
than teach ten thousand stars how not to dance."
Jul 12th, 2004, 05:17 PM
#34
At PLUM VILLAGE Thich Nhat Hanh leads a year-round program of meditation practice for residents and for visitors who come for at least one week. The Summer Opening is from July 15 to August 15. For information write in advance to:
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Tha^y's 14 Precepts:
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"Do not be idolatrous about or bound to any doctrine, theory, or ideology, even Buddhist ones. All systems of thought are guiding means; they are not absolute truth.
Do not think that the knowledge you presently possess is changeless, absolute truth. Avoid being narrow-minded and bound to present views. Learn and practice non-attachment from views in order to be open to receive others' viewpoints. Truth is found in life and not merely in conceptual knowledge. Be ready to learn throughout our entire life and to observe reality in yourself and in the world at all times.
Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education. However, through compassionate dialogue, help others renounce fanaticism and narrowness.
Do not avoid contact with suffering or close your eyes before suffering. Do not lose awareness of the existence of suffering in the life of the world. find ways to be with those who are suffering by all means, including personal contact and visits, images, sound. By such means, awaken yourself and others to the reality of suffering in the world.
Do not accumulate wealth while millions are hungry. Do not take as the aim of you life fame, profit, wealth, or sensual pleasure. Live simply and share time, energy, and material resources with those who are in need.
Do not maintain anger or hatred. As soon as anger and hatred arise, practice the meditation on compassion in order to deeply understand the persons who have caused anger and hatred. Learn to look at other beings with the eyes of compassion.
Do not lose yourself in dispersion and in your surroundings. Learn to practice breathing in order to regain composure of body and mind, to practice mindfulness, and to develop concentration and understanding.
Do not utter words that can create discord and cause the community to break. Make every effort to reconcile and resolve all conflicts, however small.
Do not say untruthful things for the sake of personal interest of to impress people. Do not utter words that cause diversion and hatred. Do not spread news that you do not know to be certain. Do not criticize or condemn things you are not sure of. Always speak truthfully and constructively. Have the courage to speak out about situations of injustice, even when doing so may threaten your own safety.
Do not use the Buddhist community for personal gain or profit, or transform your community into a political party. A religious community should, however, take a clear stand against oppression and injustice, and should strive to change the situation without engaging in partisan conflicts.
Do not live with a vocation that is harmful to humans and nature. Do not invest in companies that deprive others of their chance to life. Select a vocation which helps realize your ideal compassion.
Do not kill. Do not let others kill. Find whatever means possible to protect life and to prevent war.
Possess nothing that should belong to others. Respect the property of others but prevent others from enriching themselves from human suffering or the suffering of other beings.
Do not mistreat your body. Learn to handle it with respect. Do not look on your body as only and instrument. Preserve vital energies (sexual, breath, spirit) for the realization of the Way. Sexual expression should not happen without love and commitment. In sexual relationships be aware of future suffering that may be caused. To preserve the happiness of others, respect the rights and commitments of others. Be fully aware of the responsibility of bringing new lives into the world. Meditate on the world into which you are bringing new beings.
Do not believe that I feel that I follow each and every of these precepts perfectly. I know I fail in many ways. None of us can fully fulfill any of these. However, I must work toward a goal. These are my goal. No words can replace practice, only practice can make the words.
"The finger pointing at the moon is not the moon."
Registrar
Plum Village
Meyrac
47120 Loubès-Bernac
France
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tha^y's 14 Precepts:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Do not be idolatrous about or bound to any doctrine, theory, or ideology, even Buddhist ones. All systems of thought are guiding means; they are not absolute truth.
Do not think that the knowledge you presently possess is changeless, absolute truth. Avoid being narrow-minded and bound to present views. Learn and practice non-attachment from views in order to be open to receive others' viewpoints. Truth is found in life and not merely in conceptual knowledge. Be ready to learn throughout our entire life and to observe reality in yourself and in the world at all times.
Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education. However, through compassionate dialogue, help others renounce fanaticism and narrowness.
Do not avoid contact with suffering or close your eyes before suffering. Do not lose awareness of the existence of suffering in the life of the world. find ways to be with those who are suffering by all means, including personal contact and visits, images, sound. By such means, awaken yourself and others to the reality of suffering in the world.
Do not accumulate wealth while millions are hungry. Do not take as the aim of you life fame, profit, wealth, or sensual pleasure. Live simply and share time, energy, and material resources with those who are in need.
Do not maintain anger or hatred. As soon as anger and hatred arise, practice the meditation on compassion in order to deeply understand the persons who have caused anger and hatred. Learn to look at other beings with the eyes of compassion.
Do not lose yourself in dispersion and in your surroundings. Learn to practice breathing in order to regain composure of body and mind, to practice mindfulness, and to develop concentration and understanding.
Do not utter words that can create discord and cause the community to break. Make every effort to reconcile and resolve all conflicts, however small.
Do not say untruthful things for the sake of personal interest of to impress people. Do not utter words that cause diversion and hatred. Do not spread news that you do not know to be certain. Do not criticize or condemn things you are not sure of. Always speak truthfully and constructively. Have the courage to speak out about situations of injustice, even when doing so may threaten your own safety.
Do not use the Buddhist community for personal gain or profit, or transform your community into a political party. A religious community should, however, take a clear stand against oppression and injustice, and should strive to change the situation without engaging in partisan conflicts.
Do not live with a vocation that is harmful to humans and nature. Do not invest in companies that deprive others of their chance to life. Select a vocation which helps realize your ideal compassion.
Do not kill. Do not let others kill. Find whatever means possible to protect life and to prevent war.
Possess nothing that should belong to others. Respect the property of others but prevent others from enriching themselves from human suffering or the suffering of other beings.
Do not mistreat your body. Learn to handle it with respect. Do not look on your body as only and instrument. Preserve vital energies (sexual, breath, spirit) for the realization of the Way. Sexual expression should not happen without love and commitment. In sexual relationships be aware of future suffering that may be caused. To preserve the happiness of others, respect the rights and commitments of others. Be fully aware of the responsibility of bringing new lives into the world. Meditate on the world into which you are bringing new beings.
Do not believe that I feel that I follow each and every of these precepts perfectly. I know I fail in many ways. None of us can fully fulfill any of these. However, I must work toward a goal. These are my goal. No words can replace practice, only practice can make the words.
"The finger pointing at the moon is not the moon."
Jul 12th, 2004, 05:24 PM
#35
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Budman, how about the English Channel? 
<i>This personification of our interconnectedness reflects what I find compelling about Buddhism.</i>
Thanks, elle. Very nice passage from Hanh. I think he's my new hero!
Interesting to see you mention that about the Cathars and Languedoc. In the fall of 1998, I ended up returning to Nice and the Cote d'Azur but had considered visiting Languedoc instead so I'd done a fair amount of reading on that area and learned about the Albigensian Crusade (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albigensian_Crusade)
Albi itself sounded like an interesting town. I remember its nickname is "Albi the Red" because of the rose-red brick prevalent in the town. Have you ever been there?
<i>This personification of our interconnectedness reflects what I find compelling about Buddhism.</i>
Thanks, elle. Very nice passage from Hanh. I think he's my new hero!
Interesting to see you mention that about the Cathars and Languedoc. In the fall of 1998, I ended up returning to Nice and the Cote d'Azur but had considered visiting Languedoc instead so I'd done a fair amount of reading on that area and learned about the Albigensian Crusade (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albigensian_Crusade)
Albi itself sounded like an interesting town. I remember its nickname is "Albi the Red" because of the rose-red brick prevalent in the town. Have you ever been there?
Jul 12th, 2004, 05:58 PM
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What a nice, thoughtful thread... I kept waiting for the wacko's to show up and inject their narrow political views.
I have had many semi-spiritual experiences in traveling, but few I'd define as "religious." My sweet baby sister died from a heart attack in her sleep at 52, and at each church we visit in Europe, my big sis and I light a candle for her and are comforted by her spirit flickering behind us when we leave the church. I still like to think that some place in Europe, Kitty's spirit is flickering vibrantly in the dark.
I have had many semi-spiritual experiences in traveling, but few I'd define as "religious." My sweet baby sister died from a heart attack in her sleep at 52, and at each church we visit in Europe, my big sis and I light a candle for her and are comforted by her spirit flickering behind us when we leave the church. I still like to think that some place in Europe, Kitty's spirit is flickering vibrantly in the dark.
Jul 12th, 2004, 06:09 PM
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Haven't made it as far north as Albi, yet. I suspect the red brick must be from the same source as that of Toulouse, <i>La Ville Rose</i>. Coming from a city that is predominantly red brick, I tend to be attracted to cities with a greater use of limestone and other materials. Except for the Place des Vosges, brick seems so pedestrian to me. . .
The city of Beziers played an interesting, if tragic, role in the Albigensian Crusade. In 1209, a large number of Cathars took refuge in the city. When the crusaders stormed the city, they found that not only had the Cathars taken refuge in the churches, but so had the entire population of Beziers, Catholic and Cathar alike.
The Abbot of Citeaux, who had ordered the massacre of all Cathars, instructed the troops: "Kill them all, God will know his own." In his subsequent report to Rome, he bragged that some 20,000 people-- were put to death, the majority of them being members of his own faith.
Jul 12th, 2004, 07:01 PM
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Cigalachanta
,I have the book.. "Peace is Every Step" The path of Mindfulness in Every day Life, by Thich Nhat Hanh..
It has a Foreword by the Dalai Lama..
The chapter of the fourteen precepts of te order of Interbeing, is called : "Love in Action".
I love to read his books..
,I have the book.. "Peace is Every Step" The path of Mindfulness in Every day Life, by Thich Nhat Hanh..
It has a Foreword by the Dalai Lama..
The chapter of the fourteen precepts of te order of Interbeing, is called : "Love in Action".
I love to read his books..
Jul 12th, 2004, 09:29 PM
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I really didn't expect to see so many thoughtful, erudite and well-written responses to my idle query! I'll have to print this thread and read it in bed.
Yet again I find myself on capo's side. I've been a non-believer since my teen years, although I like to think that I can appreciate the religious impulse, especially when listening to works like Bach's Mass in B Minor or Mozart's Requiem.
At the same time I worry that the ability to believe firmly in something that's incapable of proof one way or the other can create a mindset ready-made to accept other, more harmful, beliefs. I find claims to know what "God" likes or wants, based on interpretations of writings by ancient scribes, very strange indeed.
I'm not convinced that religious differences as such are the root cause of wars and persecution, but they can embed the conflicts long beyond the events that gave rise to them, and they can provide the moral justification for unspeakable acts.
Power, wealth and territory seem to be the key motivators - look at the Crusades. Were the Albigensians slaughtered because of their unorthodox beliefs, or because they looked to be establishing a competing centre of power and wealth that threatened the supremacy of the Roman church?
Have the troubles in Northern Ireland really been about small differences between Catholic and Protestant doctrine? Or did they start as a result of the dispossession of the native Irish (who happened to be Catholic) by English and Scots settlers (who happened to be Protestant), and are now being perpetuated by ancient antipathies symbolised by different religious identities?
A year or two ago I listened to a lengthy radio interview with the American Episcopalian Bishop John Shelby Spong during his visit to Australia, and I remember thinking that if anyone could entice me back into the Church it would have to be him. Ironically, the clergy of the Diocese of Sydney, which is fiercely Low Church (and Philistine IMO) refused to let him occupy a pulpit in their city!
Apropos of my grandmother's fear of being outbred by the Catholics, she didn't live to see me marry into a large (10 children!) Catholic family.
Yet again I find myself on capo's side. I've been a non-believer since my teen years, although I like to think that I can appreciate the religious impulse, especially when listening to works like Bach's Mass in B Minor or Mozart's Requiem.
At the same time I worry that the ability to believe firmly in something that's incapable of proof one way or the other can create a mindset ready-made to accept other, more harmful, beliefs. I find claims to know what "God" likes or wants, based on interpretations of writings by ancient scribes, very strange indeed.
I'm not convinced that religious differences as such are the root cause of wars and persecution, but they can embed the conflicts long beyond the events that gave rise to them, and they can provide the moral justification for unspeakable acts.
Power, wealth and territory seem to be the key motivators - look at the Crusades. Were the Albigensians slaughtered because of their unorthodox beliefs, or because they looked to be establishing a competing centre of power and wealth that threatened the supremacy of the Roman church?
Have the troubles in Northern Ireland really been about small differences between Catholic and Protestant doctrine? Or did they start as a result of the dispossession of the native Irish (who happened to be Catholic) by English and Scots settlers (who happened to be Protestant), and are now being perpetuated by ancient antipathies symbolised by different religious identities?
A year or two ago I listened to a lengthy radio interview with the American Episcopalian Bishop John Shelby Spong during his visit to Australia, and I remember thinking that if anyone could entice me back into the Church it would have to be him. Ironically, the clergy of the Diocese of Sydney, which is fiercely Low Church (and Philistine IMO) refused to let him occupy a pulpit in their city!
Apropos of my grandmother's fear of being outbred by the Catholics, she didn't live to see me marry into a large (10 children!) Catholic family.
