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Have you found travel a religious experience?

Have you found travel a religious experience?

Old Jul 12th, 2004, 02:52 AM
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Have you found travel a religious experience?

I was brought up Anglican, a pretty harmless faith. The nearest we came to bigotry was my grandmother's dark suspicion that our Catholic neighbours were under orders from the Pope to out-breed us. But as both families were working class we always lent each other a hand, or at least a cup of sugar, when necessary. Many years later a visit to Vietnam suggested that the Buddhists were even more harmless than the Anglicans. Later, during a ramble through New Hampshire, I thought the Shakers had a point, but as their celibacy rule had left only five or six of them alive, a situation that even my grandmother would have questioned, I had my doubts. Has anyone out there turned Shaker, Buddhist, Catholic, Muslim or anything else as a result of their travels?
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Old Jul 12th, 2004, 02:59 AM
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Well I remain a confirmed atheist throughout my travels, and if anything the opulence of catholic churches has reconfirmed my nonbeliefs, but I did buy a buddha in Thailand, does that count? I approve of the peaceful nature of buddhism, but doubt that I am reincarnated from a snake or something.
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Old Jul 12th, 2004, 06:23 AM
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Our understanding of early church history has been greatly broadened by visiting the 5th century churches in Rome and Ravenna. We're Episcopalians (US version of Anglican).
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Old Jul 12th, 2004, 06:32 AM
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I am, as they say, "a person of faith," and travels have both deepened my religious beliefs and given me things to question and reflect on. Born a Moravian and now Lutheran (mostly because Moravian churches are thin on the ground in many places), there is a tour we are hoping to take next year on the roots of Lutheran spirituality. We learned about it too late for this year, but are hoping it will be repeated next year. This is the link:
http://www.elca.org/wittenberg/spirituality/
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Old Jul 12th, 2004, 09:49 AM
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How can one view the majesty of the Swiss Alps, or snorkel in the clear lagoons of French Polynesia, and not be in awe at the wonder of creation? I might not see those as religious, but I certainly call them God experiences.

Like BTilke (even in the Lutheran sense), travel has deepened my beliefs, and broadened my understanding of the commonality of humankind's relationship with God, despite religious differences.

For me, there's a link between your question, Neil, and the one I posed in an earlier thread about the influence of travel on one's politics. Personally, I'm struggling with the apparent contradiction between a (Christian) nation founded "under God" (the USA) and what I believe is a Christian understanding that God doesn't recognize borders between countries or religions.

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Old Jul 12th, 2004, 10:10 AM
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beachbum, I believe it is the IDEA of a foundation under God. God is the Perfect Idea and this country was founded on the Christian Idea.

It is a material thing, boundaries, not an Idea.

IMHO.
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Old Jul 12th, 2004, 10:14 AM
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One of my husband's best friends born and raised cathoic for 30+ years went to Isreal and came back Jewish. He joined a Jewish dating service, married Jewish woman and they now have 5 children. Obviously religion ia a very strong part of their lives. He is the same person, just different religios beliefs, I guess it visiting Isreal was a religious awakening for him.

Myself, visiting Italy remined me of all the glorious parts of Catholicism. The history of how I was raised. I'm not as religious as I was when I was younger (I relate more to Budda but sill believe in Jesus) and visiting all those beautiful churches brought back many happy memories of attending mass when I was a child.
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Old Jul 12th, 2004, 10:31 AM
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I found Monserrate to be one the most spiritual places I've been.
When I went into the Mattias Church in Budapest, I felt like I could feel the thousands of prayers that had been prayed in there. It was a full and overwhelming but glorious feeling.
As religion is concerned, everyone is right. And I get really ticked off when people don't agree with me. I also believe there's not much difference between Jesus and Buddha. God is God is God.
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Old Jul 12th, 2004, 10:51 AM
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I haven't found travel a religious experience, but I travel religiously. Does that count?
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Old Jul 12th, 2004, 10:53 AM
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Great writing, Neil.

I was brought up Lutheran (the "state religion" of Minnesota but came to dimiss most, if not all, religious dogma of any kind. It is astonishing to me that any people -- any educated people that is -- would cling to the belief that a loving Creator would somehow favor one religion, or one group of people, over another.

I have to admit that I don't know that much about Eastern religions, like Buddhism, but they don't strike me as being "holier-than-thou" religions as the three great monotheistic religions are.

To me, values that people of all religions and beliefs can, and should, share are love, compassion, understanding, and forgiveness. I don't see these as religious or secular values. I see them as humanistic values, universal values.

Ironically, I think one of the things that travel to Europe has done for me is driven home what horrors and injustices have been done in the name of religion, in the name of God. As an example, two things in Rome: the statue of Giordano Bruno in Campo di Fiori (he was burned at the stake by the Catholic Church for "heresy" and his statue now faces the Vatican); and the Jewish Ghetto, which Pope Paul IV established in 1555, decreeing that Jews must live segregated in quarters with gates and that they must sell all their property to Christians, issuing the Cum nimis absurdum bull which stated: "it is absurd and inconvenient that the Jews, who through their own fault were condemned by God to eternal slavery, can ...show such ingratitude towards Christians and affront them by asking for their mercy.... have become so bold as to not only live amongst Christians but near their churches without any distinctive clothing."
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Old Jul 12th, 2004, 11:09 AM
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capo, not all religions cling to the belief that a loving Creator would somehow favor one religion, or one group of people, over another, at least not every denomination.

I was taught in a Christian church that it is us to have to align ourselves with God who is Constant and not the other way around.
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Old Jul 12th, 2004, 11:13 AM
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Oh, here is my religious experience in Italy. I was brought up Protestant but in this small chapel surrounded with devout Catholic women I was moved to tears by their sincerity and devotion. Their prayers were so beautiful and the surrounds so simple and pure that it was heaven on earth.

I tend to think Catholic when I am in Italy anyway, it must be the water.
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Old Jul 12th, 2004, 11:44 AM
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This is a provocative question. I think it's linked to the same themes that are raised in the thread about travel influencing one's politics. So as usual I'll turn it into an opus and herewith a couple of anecdotes:

I visited Czestochowa cathedral in Poland, in the mid-1970s. For those not familiar, Czestochowa is an important pilgrimage destination, especially for those wanting to pray at the chapel of the Black Madonna. It's not only a religious shrine, but one of enormous national significance to the Poles and to Slavs in general. And of course the Polish authorities of the day were amazingly able to ignore the parts in Marx's gospel that blathered on about opiates of masses and all that, and to permit, or even support, a flourishing Catholic church across the country.

On the way into the church, I observed a young woman, obviously herself a pilgrim, go into a grand mal seizure in the park adjacent to the cathedral. Her companion tended to her - no panic, just followed what I assumed are the rules in dealing with these occurrences. Of course, coming from the west we virtually never see these things in public nowadays, but I expect Socialist medicine in Poland was less well-equipped with medications and therapies to deal with the girl's illness.

Anyway, when I got inside the cathedral, I was amazed to see (for the first time for me, old hat to my Polish companions) all the dozens of sets of crutches, canes, other medical devices (even a prosthetic leg!) that people had attached to the chapel's screen. Miraculous cures in some cases, I guess, or else maybe they were put there by those who had given up all other hope, or by the families of those who no longer had need of them, for one reason or another.

It changed my view of the psychic power of big religion right there and then. Here was this dirt-poor country, in Europe no less, with millions of people who could only - in the 1970s, mind - be described as "peasants," engaging in acts of faith (and desperation) that could only be called medieval.

Inside the church, the glory of the decoration, the wealth that it bespoke, and the gloomy majesty of the place really moved me - negatively. How the hell could a modern society let people literally foam at the mouth out on the street while tolerating this leftover of superstition and subjugation?

A year later, I visited the Iranian city of Qum, one of Shia Islam's most holy places (this is where the Ayatollah Khomeini hung out before the heat sent him off to Paris - oh too bad.) Now we're talking serious medievalism here, folks. Guess what - same deal. Poorer than poor, folks from all over the world coming to pray, seek intervention, perform sacred obligations, all that. Blind people, young kids (okay, just boys) coming to enter the Madrassas; a few coming in Mercedes, others on donkeys, all estates. For these folks, their religion was their life, it was all they owned and they were holding onto it like it was a sack of gold. And meanwhile the Shah was a hundred miles away, tuning his violin for the coming bonfire.

Things like these put me off religion, and it was almost 20 years before I saw and experienced the flip side, and frankly got turned around.

I traveled for the first time to Jerusalem, went to Bethlehem, the Church of the Holy Sepulcher, and the West Wall. (At the time going to the Dome of the Rock or Al-Aqsa was not a brilliant idea.) I watched the monks praying at Golgotha, stood at the Wall and said Kadish for my late stepmother.

And how can one not be changed by that? The antiquity, the power, the real presence - if not the presence of the holy, then at least the presence of the millions of the faithful, over the thousands of years, who have invested these places with their souls, their prayers, their lives? Yeah, I know that's all pretty florid sounding, but you have to see it, you have to feel it. I dare anyone to have their cynicism last longer than five minutes in these places.

Well, for me it turned back the clock. I won't say I came away born again or with any of my religious convictions supercharged. I heard no voices, I observed no burning bushes. But my faith was absolutely kindled - faith in people to seek out and swear to an ethical code, even if they don't practice it all the time. Faith to make these artifacts last and to preserve them; faith to journey across oceans and centuries for the sake of belief in Godly acts and thoughts.

Has travel changed my religious beliefs? Ye This is a provocative question. I think it's linked to the same themes as are raised in the thread about travel influencing one's politics. So as usual I'll turn it into an opus. So herewith a couple of anecdotes:

I visited Czestochowa cathedral in Poland, in the mid-1970s. For those not familiar, Czestochowa is an important pilgrimage destination, especially for those wanting to pray at the chapel of the Black Madonna. It's not only a religious shrine, but one of enormous national significance to the Poles and to Slavs in general. And of course the Polish authorities of the day were amazingly able to ignore the parts in Marx's gospel that blathered on about opiates of masses and all that, and to permit, or even support, a flourishing Catholic church across the country.

On the way into the church, I observed a young woman, obviously herself a pilgrim, go into a grand mal seizure in the park adjacent to the cathedral. Her companion tended to her - no panic, just followed what I assumed are the rules in dealing with these occurrences. Of course, coming from the west we virtually never see these things in public nowadays, but I expect Socialist medicine in Poland was less well-equipped with medications and therapies to deal with the girl's illness.

Anyway, when I got inside the cathedral, I was amazed to see (for the first time for me, old hat to my Polish companions) all the dozens of sets of crutches, canes, other medical devices (even a prosthetic leg!) that people had attached to the chapel's screen. Miraculous cures in some cases, I guess, or else maybe they were put there by those who had given up all other hope, or by the families of those who no longer had need of them, for one reason or another.

It changed my view of the psychic power of big religion right there and then. Here was this dirt-poor country, in Europe no less, with millions of people who could only - in the 1970s, mind - be described as "peasants," engaging in acts of faith (and desperation) that could only be called medieval.

Inside the church, the glory of the decoration, the wealth that it bespoke, and the gloomy majesty of the place really moved me - negatively. How the hell could a modern society let people literally foam at the mouth out on the street while tolerating this leftover of superstition and subjugation?

A year later, I visited the Iranian city of Qum, one of Shia Islam's most holy places (this is where the Ayatollah Khomeini hung out before the heat sent him off to Paris - oh too bad.) Now we're talking serious medievalism here, folks. Guess what - same deal. Poorer than poor, folks from all over the world coming to pray, seek intervention, perform sacred obligations, all that. Blind people, young kids (okay, just boys) coming to enter the Madrassas; a few coming in Mercedes, others on donkeys, all estates. For these folks, their religion was their life, it was all they owned and they were holding onto it like it was a sack of gold. And meanwhile the Shah was a hundred miles away, tuning his violin for the coming bonfire.

Things like these frankly put me off religion, and it was almost 20 years before I saw and experienced the flip side, and frankly got turned around.

I traveled for the first time to Jerusalem, went to Bethlehem, the Church of the Holy Sepulcher, and the West Wall. (At the time going to the Dome of the Rock or Al-Aqsa was not a brilliant idea.) I watched the monks praying at Golgotha, stood at the Wall and said Kadish for my late stepmother.

And how can one not be changed by that? The antiquity, the power, the real presence - if not the presence of the holy, then at least the presence of the millions of the faithful, over the thousands of years, who have invested these places with their souls, their prayers, their lives? Yeah, I know that's all pretty florid sounding, but you have to see it, you have to feel it. I dare anyone to have their cynicism last longer than five minutes in these places.

Well, for me it turned back the clock. I won't say I came away born again or with any of my religious convictions supercharged. I heard no voices, I observed no burning bushes. But my faith was absolutely kindled - faith in people to seek out and swear to an ethical code, even if they don't practice it all the time. Faith to make these artifacts last and to preserve them; faith to journey across oceans and centuries for the sake of belief in Godly acts and thoughts.

Have I found travel to be a religious experience? Yes, a couple of times, and the effects are still with me.
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Old Jul 12th, 2004, 11:52 AM
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I am so sorry for the repetitive repetitiveness. Cursed "preview" function. Oops, not a Godly thought.
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Old Jul 12th, 2004, 12:17 PM
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capo, you're right that some individuals and groups have committed terrible acts in the name of religion. It saddens me, though, that you blame the religion and not the PEOPLE who twist the word of God to try to legitimize their crimes.

God favors EVERYONE. It is up to us to accept that favor from him.
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Old Jul 12th, 2004, 12:18 PM
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My years in Asia resulted in my eventual (after a lot of internal struggles) conversion to Buddhism. I was never comfortable as a Christian, though I am now convinced that Christ is a Buddha.
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Old Jul 12th, 2004, 12:22 PM
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Nocinut, When my husband and I are in Italy( he is Church of Christ, I am Episcopalian), we both feel like we could be Catholics. We are very interested in the combination of history and religion.

We attended Mass at Assisi, and there seemed to be such a holy feeling during the service.

When we stay at convents, we very much appreciate the Christian spirit of service that we observe in the nuns.

Of course, the goal of Chrisitanity is unity of the Church- maybe that is what we are feeling.
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Old Jul 12th, 2004, 12:26 PM
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I find seeing the beauty of nature a religious experience.

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction"...Blaise Pascal
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Old Jul 12th, 2004, 12:28 PM
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Although I came to the realization that man created god(s) well before I had as much travel under my belt as I do now - - the more I see of the world (and this includes in person, as well as on television and through other media), the more this clear fundamental truth is evident to me.

In every culture, from Appalachia to the Vatican, from Kuala Lumpur to Westminster Abbey, I don't know how one can escape the conclusion that the view of any god is a perfect reflection of the cultural milieu in which the local practices of worship exist (arose).

True in the halls of science, commerce, entertainment and fashion as well, I submit.

Best wishes,

Rex
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Old Jul 12th, 2004, 12:51 PM
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Let me put the other side to this.

Middle England is as tolerant a place as it's possible to find. As Neil says, our dominant religion, Anglicanism, is pretty harmless. Our becoming-dominant religion, Catholicism Lite (the Christian sect attended each week by more people than any other in the UK) is also, these days an unquestioned force for good (or would be if all of our priests could keep their hands to themselves).

So is the world view held by the Baptists, Quakers and Methodists who also keep chuches running in my village - as well as by our Jewish, Hindu, Sikh, Jain, Confucian and Muslim neighbours. In my bit of England, God comes in many forms. All benign.

But that's not what I see when I travel. I see Egypt losing its millenia of Christian and Jewish citizens. Christians being persecuted in huge swathes of the Muslim world. I've been asked what I'm doing sitting in Greek Orthodox churches.

I see in much of Latin Europe a pietistic version of Catholicism that really isn't the religion of Newman. For several years of my life, I saw how, even in the UK, religion could distort normal human behaviour to produce the ethnic cleansings of Northern Ireland (which wasn't just tribal: NI was and is the most religiously observant part of Europe).

And I see that what triggered the collapse of Communism wasn't rational, English-speaking reformed Christianity (for even the Catholic church in the US, Australia and the British Isles is a product of the Reformation). It was the atavistic religion of Czestochowa (or Lourdes, or Fatima). Just as the Shah was overthrown by the religion of Qom, and the West is challenged by the primitive Islam of the Saudi desert.

For English-speakers, travel exposes you to the uncomfortable reality that lies behind most religions. The world of religion isn't the comfortable world of the Founding Fathers or of the generations of colonial mandarins who drafted sensiible laws and constitutions.

And that's not a world I'm happy to belong to.

So travel has made me less religious.
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