Cholmondley_Warner

we might have to skip them if the day they are planned it pours. Would doing HC on a Sun or Bank Holiday be better?>>

I would say that Greenwich would be better in the rain than HC. The best bit of HC (IMHO) is the gardens, wheras much of Greenwich is inside - Maritime Museum, Observatory, Queens House, Covered Market etc

noe847

You will probably be amazed when you start to investigate the Tower. I had some sort of vague image of "a" tower. Well, there are lots of towers (something like 20), and the oldest part of the complex, the White Tower, is a stunning Norman castle (built soon after 1066). There are also a few palaces. I've only scratched the surface on my visits, which have been around 2.5 hours (but going with different people, so I've essentially always done the same bits). Wikipedia gives a decent overview: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tower_of_London
There's a great graphic showing the medieval building phases at:
http://vrcoll.fa.pitt.edu/medart/ima...r-General.html
Aerial photos:
http://viewfinder.english-heritage.o...aspx?uid=17370
http://www.britannica.com/eb/art-14868/Tower-of-London

When you're at the Tower, your daughter may really enjoy viewing the ravens. Legend has it that if the ravens ever leave the Tower, the monarchy will fall. Taking no chances, the wings of the ravens are clipped!

As for the Yeoman Warder tour, it may be too strong for a sensitive 5 year old. My girls were 17 and 21 when I've accompanied them, so of course I didn't really focus on that aspect! Maybe someone else with younger children will recall the gory bits. As best I can remember, there was definitely mention of the imprisonment/murder of the two boy princes, and also of various beheadings and executions within and without the walls. The delivery is in a (humorously?) dramatic fashion, but these things definitely were highlighted.

janisj

&quot;<i>-If I were to try and do Tower and Greenwich in one day, I would have to skip St Paul's on that day?</i>&quot;

The Tower and St Paul's in one day, or the Tower and Greenwich in one day - both are doable. But the the Tower, St Paul's and Greenwich is really not feasible.

3+ hours at the Tower, 3+ hours in Greenwich, 1-2 hours at St Paul's - plus transport, plus meals -- just not doable. You need to get a handle on the size of London -- it is HUGE and it takes time to get from place to place.

lennyba

Wallace collection is definitely looking like the museum for us. It seems, according to my map, that it isn't very close to any other sights, so is the area that it is in good for strolling, window shopping, pubs, etc.?

I second the suggestion above that the Wallace might not be *the* best choice for such a young one. But if you do decide to go, on one trip we walked from the Wallace to Regent's Park (lovely) and then along the canal footpath to Little Venice.

tuscanlifeedit

Since you have Regent's Park on your first day, you could do the Wallace collection then. I am not sure about the Hop On/Hop Off bus. That is just me: I don't find them appealing.

odie1

Thanks all, have rethought my itinerary and have made changes, and of course I have a few new questions...

Thurs May 22:
-arrive hotel by 9 AM
-head to and check out ST Jame's Park lunch at Inn, unless someone has another place they recommend
-Cabinet War rooms
-walk past Horse Guards to Trafalgar square and back around the Strand Victoria Embankment
-Hotel to rest and relax
-walk around Southbank
-dinner at Master's fish

Fri May 23:
-9 am Tower for crown jewels, still trying to decide on yeoman tour but plan on spending about 3 hours here
-Tower Bridge just to look
Lunch St Katherine's Wharf
-#15 bus to St Pauls
Is planning on being done by 3 PM seems right?

Sat May 24:
-Westminster Abby
-walk to B Palace
-Queen's Gallery (I think I will make this our museum of choice)
-Royal Mews
-Lunch
-Princess Diana Playground
-back to hotel, relax, regroup
-Covent Garden for checking out street entertainment
-Dinner somewhere nearby, maybe Chinatown?

Sun May 25:
-train to Hampton Court, expect to spend most of the day, might take boat back to Richmond and then train to Waterloo (as per a suggestion on another thread), of course it all depends on the weather

Mon May 26 (bank holiday):
-Still trying to decide now if we want to go to Greenwich or stay in and around London proper exploring other parts of the city like Chelsea, St Jame's, or other quaint area with lots of unique stores, etc

Tues May 27:
open until 12:30

London eye will be dependent on weather.

Questions:
-How much should I expect if we did Greenwich going both ways by DLR? and what if we did the train one way?
-I did axe the Wallace collection, and although the V and A sounds great I though with time constraints and all, the Queen's Gallery would fit the bill well. Both of their current exhibitions look intriguing to all of us!
-Should I scale down and choose one, either St Paul's or Westminster Abby?
-I know I have to look more into it, I have found the whole traveling within London very confusing, but is the Oyster card the way to go for us? It seems much of our stuff is within walking distance or out of zone 1/2. Would just paying as we go and grabbing a cab every now and then be THAT much more?

Again, thanks so much. I am getting very excited. I was London when I was 15, so about 20 years ago and I remember not loving it then, so I am looking forward to having a completely different experience this go round!

Merseyheart

I did all the &quot;required&quot; sights in London on my first trip, so I haven't been back to Westminster Abbey. I did try on one trip, and discovered that I was too impatient for the line. St. Paul's is easy to get into, they have a nice cafe downstairs, and it's in an older section of the city.

Ohhhhh....take the tube, take the tube, take the tube. Forget taxis. You will walk a lot. Buy a Zone 1 and 2 Oyster card for the week, and let it whisk it where you want to go. (Yes, yes, the locals will tell you the Underground can be a real hassle, but they don't live in a town that lacks an organized subway.)

If you don't want to take the tube every day, you can buy a all-day pass for 4 or 5 pounds, I think, from the machine, or a clerk. I know your daughter would love the adventure of going underground to travel in the train. Don't let her miss that!

Kellye

Oh, please do not make the Queen's Gallery your museum of choice for a 5yo!!! My then 13yo and I went last summer as part of a tour of BP and my 13yo was bored to tears in that museum....and she LIKES museums. The art work was pretty and I enjoyed the commentary in the free audio tour, but it is really small and there truly isn't much there. She keeps the best bits for herself I hear.

How about the British Museum? You can do as much or as little as you like. My daughter was really fascinated with the mummies and the ancient Greek and Roman stuff. I would think a 5yo would love that stuff too. We walked through for just an hour or two and then were overloaded. It is free and I would think you could just pick one gallery to explore and at least have an introduction....

noe847

You really have grouped your activities/sights very well. Although it fits well location-wise, Cabinet War Rooms might be tough on arrival/jet lag day. But you have the experience and know how your family fares after a trans-Atlantic flight. You might not get all of those things accomplished on Thursday, but the bankside walk could fit in another free slot.

Is there a reason you are finishing up by 3:00 on Friday? That might be a good time to go to the Borough Market, and you wouldn't be all that far (St. Paul's).

There seems to be a lot on Saturday morning - not sure you could fit all that before lunch. I will be happy to hear what you think of the Queen's Gallery. I've been dying to go there, but haven't yet been.

A restaurant you might enjoy is Belgo Centraal - a hopping place serving Belgian ale, mussels, frites, and more. The atmosphere is sort of industrial meets medieval monastery. We loved our food and had a lot of fun there. It's in the Covent Garden/Seven Dials area. I first heard of it from a friend of ours who is a London native - it's his favorite.

I would go ahead and get an Oyster card. Paying as you go is very expensive. I think the 7 day will save you money, even though you will only be there for 5... With the 7 day, you save the 3GBP Oyster deposit and can use transportation any time.

It does get confusing if you are wanting to use the 2-for-1 deals, which require a train ticket or a paper travel card. When I went last year, the rules were different (and we took the train from and to the airport, so had those tickets). We had 2-for-1 coupons for the Tower, Hampton Court (we didn't end up going), the Cabinet War Rooms, and a few others.

yk

I've been to the Queen's Gallery twice now - both times I went because of the special exhibition (particular paintings that I wanted to see). IMO, Queen's Gallery will be more boring than Wallace Collection - it is just a couple of rooms with paintings and some diamonds/faberge. I don't think it's worth the admission &pound; unless you really want to see the exhibits (esp when you consider most other art museums are free).

I encourage all London visitors to try to take the bus. It involves less walking (compared to the tube) and you can sightsee. There are simplied bus maps (showing lines that go thru the tourist sites) that you can pick up for free. Cabs are very expensive, esp with the congestion in London - even if it looks like a short cab ride, it may end up being very long and expensive cuz you're stuck in traffic.

Westminster and St Paul are very different. If I have to choose one, I'd pick Westminster Abbey.

janisj

I personally would think the Queen's Gallery would be far down the &quot;musts&quot; list for a family. It is very nice and I've been several times - but there is no &quot;WOW&quot; factor and nothing of interest to a child.

I also do not think the Wallace Collection would be that great for your situation. I personally love it but a child might be bored to tears.

Pick any museum - I understand not wanting to &quot;over museum&quot; yourselves - but any one of the museums like the V&amp;A, British, etc. would IMO be better than the Queen's Gallery.

noe847

If I had to choose, it would be Westminster Abbey over St. Paul's. No offense intended to Christopher Wren, but for me, medieval trumps 17th c. Also, the I found the tombs of Mary and Elizabeth to be very moving, and the Poet's Corner to be extremely interesting (Chaucer, Handel, Samuel Johnson, etc.)

nona1

Great museums for kids - Science Museum (lots of hands on stuff, IMAX screen), Natural History Museum (lively, often kids/family activities), V&amp;A museum. Luckily they are all right next to each other, and free, so you can hop in and out of them until you find the one the whole family enjoys.

PatrickLondon

IF you want to pay for public transport as you go, do it using an Oyster. NEVER pay cash for tube and bus rides - it will cost you much more.

But I would support the idea of getting travelcards rather than PAYG - your child will travel free, and if you're thinking you might want to use cabs when you get tired (and you will, even on your revised itinerary), you can use the big red ones at no extra cost.

Plus, a travelcard will get you one-third off riverboat fares, and will cover you whatever sort of train you use to and from Greenwich (the trip is more scenic if you take a boat one way and DLR the other, though you could take a train to or from Waterloo East). If you do go to Greenwich and take the DLR, you might stop off at Mudchute (not as dismal as the name sounds - it's a nod to industrial history, not a description) and have a quick walk through the City Farm: www.mudchute.org

odie1

So I will look more in depth at either the V and A or the British Museum, to see which one has an exhibit or two that would be interesting for all of us. so back to the drawing board a bit for a new itinerary...

We will do the Osyter card but in looking on line, I only saw 1 and 3 day peak/off peak travel cards. I am sure I am missing something here...

noe847-
-I know it sounds like a lot on Thurs but we can't check in until 3 PM, (of course we will ask when we get to the hotel but...). On previous trips across the pond we have all done well until about 3 PM or so, which is when I am hoping to return to the hotel for a rest and then we'll go out for an early dinner and try to adjust our time. Of course we will just see how it goes but our daughter has unbelievable stamina and thank goodness doesn't know what a &quot;melt-down&quot; is!
-As for friday, I am trying to keep from overplanning and figured to leave late afternoons open for spontaneous things. I had Borough Market in my origianl itinerary, but was worried about loads of crowds. Our daughter, not to mention myself, would be very uncomfortable with being in an area that you were being jostled about. I figured we would take a look and see how we feel when we are there. But I am very intrigued by the sounds of it.
-Sat morning I thought seemed reasonable. An hour or to and hour and a half at the Abby and then a walk past B Palace. But we may skip the Queen's Gallery and just do the Royal Mews. I might add the British Museum on for later in the day then Covent Garden and dinner.
-As mentioned above, still confused about the 7 day, any enlightenment would be terrrriffffficc!

Thanks again!

Cholmondley_Warner

Borough Market is busy - but it's not threatening. It's the most middle class place on the planet.

noe847

Let's see if I can make the transportation question any easier! An Oyster Looks like a plastic credit card. It is a vehicle to hold value (like a gift certificate is).

You can add the value on a pay-as-you-go basis, in which case you pay a 3GBP deposit for the Oyster card plus whatever amount you wish to load electronically onto the card. Each time you ride you touch the card to the reader and the amount of the fare is deducted electronically. You obtain more advantageous fares using the Oyster and there is a daily cap on what you will pay. You can add more value to the card when you run low - and can do it with a machine in the tube stations or at the ticket window. I believe you can turn your card in at the end of your stay and obtain a refund of the deposit plus any value remaining. I have not done this myself, since I keep our Oysters and bring them back for return trips.

OR, you can add value to the plastic Oyster card in the form of a &quot;7 day travelcard&quot; - this is loaded electronically and gives you 7 days worth of riding. You do not have to pay the deposit for the Oyster card.

If you want a 1 day or a 3 day travelcard, I believe they are only available in paper cards, and not able to be loaded onto the Oyster.

These are better deals than paying individual fares in cash, which is what you should totally avoid. I'd be very surprised if you don't ride the tube as well as buses. At any rate, the efficient folk at the ticket window of the tube station will be your best friend.

odie1

I wasn't afraid Borough Market was threatening, just crowded and tight to move around. I will definitely look into it when we are there.

Ok, so after rereading various threads, please tell me if I have it figured out...

There are many 2 for 1 deals on the days out guide website to attractions that we would like to go to and since we will be there before May 31, they will still be valid for us to use. In adding up the savings for the ones I know for sure we are going to go to it comes to about 60 pounds. SO, since we are taking a car to and from the airport, and spending one day in Hampton Court (which is outside of zone 1 and 2) and possibly going to Greenwich (is this outside of zone 1 and 2?), would walking to Waterloo Station from the hotel (Marriott County Hall) to buy a 7 day, zone 1 and 2, paper travelcard, which I believe allows us to travel at peak times and since we are hoping to be at the Tower by 9am and will probably do some traveling peak PM times, make the most sense. I believe, from previous posts it is 24 pounds per person and our daughter at 5 years old, will travel free!
Please tell me I got it??????

Cholmondley_Warner

You have to go to Waterloo to go the Hampton court. So maybe combine the two?

yk

Hi odie-

It sounds like you really only need to take the tube/bus for 3 days out of your five days there. I'm not sure if it's worthwhile to get the 7-day travelcard!

Since you want to use the 2-for-1 deal, you can buy a PAPER travelcard (zones 1-2) for the 3 days you're traveling for &pound;6.80 each day (this is for peak travel; &pound;5.30 for off-peak). This way
1) you can buy the paper travelcard from a tube station rather than a railway station
2) it'll still be cheaper than the 7-day travelcard and you still get the 2-for-1 benefit AND travel peak times.