LoveItaly

But Sue, if you live in a really hot section (hot as in temp only unfortunatly) of California you do want to spend evenings outdoors. It is about the only time you can tolerate being outdoors. And how nice it would be if there was something to do, even just a cafe with outdoor table and chairs where you could have a drink and sit and visit with friends etc.

wren

When I read posts such as these, I always wish that the best of European culture could be combined with the best of American culture. What an incredible place that would be!!!

JJ5

DenverDice, this is not held against your observation of culture shock. Nor against any other poster on this thread, but mainly relates to the many longer defaming American cut downs of the last few days. Except for the "live life to the fullest". I don't know about that. Maybe, but not the Europeans in Belgium, Germany, Austria, Italy/Sicily that are related to me.
They are not all of the classes that sit in cafes. My German relatives have not had any children purposely. They work more than I do and don't live such "full" lives, IMHO.

LoveItaly, those are all nice phrases, "melting-pot, quilt etc." and now in college the salad bowl analogy. Not reality in my life. Period. I've been razored on my face just for being white, beat up for not being Cuban/Hispanic, almost raped by two total strangers and cut for being in the "wrong" place- a bus stop. This all before I was 20. And I tell you this, not to say poor me, but to let you know that I KNOW that I have different life experience than the more sheltered in my culture. I am NOT mean in return, but giving- yet because of this can easily recognize the food this kind of meaness feasts upon. Nor do I hold it against the USA itself, but against the city structure and political manipulations of power there- and also the density from immense human migrations.

The mean spiritedness of the criticisms of "American" life on these boards is far beyond the constant echos of the same buzz words: suburban sprawl, car SUV use, too many fat people, needing better transport/more trains etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. That is understandable and constant/boring but not what is so troublesome to people like myself or maybe Stellarossa and quite a few others. The American bashing is quite like the name calling done to the "new" kid who is teased and tormented by the bully. But ALL of those things come from our age and physical variables which are DIFFERENT than Europes.

Europe is not the new kid. It's an adult that shows you his charming side. Lots of my relatives are buried in three countries from the results of his not-so charming side. Close relatives.
Just being a woman in a Mediterrean country carries a different burden that has nothing to do with sitting out at night or not. My Sicilian grandmother died at 43 after 15 pregnancies. She didn't do ANY cafe sitting, nor much eating either. Things may be entirely different now. Maybe, and for the peasant classes, I hope so. Not in Poland- if I can believe my students from there.

We are an immense region in the USA. Structures and transportation reflect those huge expanses. One girl from Essex that is my graduate aide, just said to me. "I could never understand why Americans didn't walk more and drive less. Now I do. There is nothing close enough." I and 65,000 others love our town and our more than 1/2 acre each. Something maybe most Europeans couldn't or wouldn't want. But not all- because at least 20 of my 60 nearest neighbors are immigrants and about 1/2 are from Europe.

And WE know each other, talk and don't have to be afraid to walk the prairies, even at night. We don't need a cafe as we have each others yards and houses in which to meet. AND we trust enough to do so. Actually our parks and our Village Library and Recreational Center are packed at night.

Those who grow your food, weld your cars, service all your restaurants, fix your hotel beds, load your luggage, put the fuel in the airplane, package your food, move it all to get to the places it will be processed and package it to ship, sell it to you, and especially the truck drivers- are not going to have 30 hour work weeks in this vast nation. We simply do not have demographics or topography for that- except maybe in your California valleys. WHICH the same people who complain about fuel use, food "types" etc. the most, have used for habitats for themselves instead of close distance truck farming- as in Europe.

Next time I read a bashing like I have tried unarticularly to describe- I will just say "White Rose"- how about that?

It's almost always highlighted by name calling, sometimes in "jest" with innumerable political negativity.

Actually I myself am ready to bow out of these boards completely. Because it hurts me and my own spirit to read the "whine" all the time. Coached in fine language, but yet a whine. Yet I continue because I love the travel information, the goodness of most of the posters, the awesome exchange over great distance.

I do not think many of you would get the real point concerning the "work" issue until all those who do your physical and 24/7 work on both continents, just stayed home.

Greece had 1000s of years to grow up. And like most of Europe the climate permits much more outside activity. Our cafes in Chicago and environs are open about 9 or 10 weeks a year if we are lucky. On the fastest train, it would still take 2 or 3 days to cross the vast plains. We in the USA are not limited to the constructs of 2000 or 3000 years of social structure.

That lovely "innate difference"/ ambiance IS delightful upon many, many occasions in Europe. Of that I did not miss the point at all. IT IS DIFFERENT FOR A REASON.

And no one on this thread has been nasty, except maybe for the expectation of "jingoism" before any hint had begun. All preconceived ideas again, yet a kettle willing to call the pot black- or just plain name call. I wonder if any of the Twin Towers victims would think it was jingoism. We are at war with violent Islamic fundamentalism whether you want to be or not- and almost any American OR European is a "fair" target. They HATE! Yet you also rant for "Peace" with hateful words. Or with pretend thinking like Nevile Chamberlain. Very hard for someone to hear who has a brother telling her much of what HE sees in Iraq when he is out. He sends me pictures and words that tell other stories. As do the Islamic women from Jordan, Iran who I know.

But believe me, there are thousands upon thousands of slow, slow, slow ways of life in these here USA- with people inside at book discussion groups, beer halls, etc.etc. way, way past the roll up the sidewalk 8:30pm vision. AND many people take pride and fulfillment from family AND in their work ethic. I had one person open city hall for me just to get me an address change. You aren't RUSHED. As a city person most of my life I'M THE ONE WITH LISTS IN MY HEAD.

YOU are making YOUR life, where YOU live it, what it is. It is not just being DONE to you. If you think it has and don't like that others may RUSH to get the choices you have where YOU are and that ruins YOUR group speed (in frank words that is really basically with your living costs saying, "I got mine- now slow down YOU don't need to get yours.&quot

AND if you want a replica of this environment, I DO repeat what I said in the other thread. Move there and see if it seems the same in permanence and see WHY things are that way.

Europe's best features belong to the more retired elder, and are not the place where the new kid on the block lives. And not all places in Europe are so leisurely either, not even all in the Mediterranean areas.

alya

Does anyone on this post want to change places with a citizen of Niger!

We are so lucky we don't know how lucky we are.

Stellarossa

ttt for DenverDice

logos999

I was born and have spent all of my life in Munich. I know how lucky I am. Been to many places, but there really is no place like home. And I know I didn't have to "experience" either communism or fascism. This is mostly thanks to the US army. One the one hand you hate them for bombing everything into pieces, on the other hand it was the only solution at the time. Life in the western US is very backward compared to central Europe, but I also quite admire them for sticking to their values, whatever they may be and weather I like them or not.

Yawn_boring

As another poster stated, when we are on vacation everything seems better -- that's why we travel! The average Greek might not think his or her life is so mellow and pleasant. let's not forget that jobs and opportunities are rather scarce in most countries, and those from the US who have the money/time to travel almost always work like dogs to do so.

Yawn_boring

PS -- logos999-- the reason you were bombed? do the terms hitler or holocust ring a bell?

JJ5

Thank you, and I have relatives in Munich, Frankfurt, and Idar-Oberstein. My father came to Chicago from Idar-Oberstein in 1930 when he was 11. so I do know your home. I've only been there twice, but once when I was in my mid-30s before the wall fell- I was there and meet my second cousin. We will finally meet again next year.

And "backward" is a value judgment to which you are entitled, but it IS your value judgment. I tend NOT to make value judgments of that qualitative nature, but sometimes I'm not successful. I am far more successful in not name-calling. And in not tolerating that practice around me.

jules4je7

Yawn_Boring -- you have a good point. When I was an exchange student in the 1980s, I went to South America, where the perception of those of us in the USA was that we all lived in Beverly Hills-style houses, had multiple cars, maids, etc. Little did they know (and those who I told didn't believe me) that my Dad pulled down $17,000 a year as a Lutheran pastor, with 5 kids in the house. We were POOR, and the only way I was able to go was that church we belonged to helped me with the money for my plane ticket.

Simply put, people idealize other cultures, and we often do the same of others as well.

I guess I don't see anything wrong or anti-American as questioning whether the grass is greener -- I see it as the human condition. In all reality, due to my multi-European ancestry, I hold some of the traits of about 7 European countries, both physical and temperamental. I am proud of them all.

I just don't think DenverDice or anyone else should come home from a fabulous vacation with the travel bug -- and not be able to say "hey, why don't we live like that?" It may be a slightly naive question, but I've asked it myself before. And I don't consider anyone including me, un-American for asking that. It's part of how we improve is by asking "Can we make this better?"

Happy Travels,

Jules

Sue_xx_yy

Jules, I think you've hit the nail on the head - it is the human condition to search for a utopia. Although my guess is that if one ever found what one thought was utopia, one would find the meaning of "If God wants to punish you, he gives you what you ask for..."

Because people worldwide are the same in many respects. They gather together to celebrate life and their families..but people have also been known to gather together and plot to destroy life, or fracture their families. (I keep thinking of someone who lived for a time in a certain African nation. To the uninitiated, one would never know that when people gathered in the streets, singing beautifully, it was the sign to batten down the hatches, lock one's door, and pray that the almost inevitable ensuing riot wouldn't result in too many deaths. For the song in question was a tribal anthem, a challenge to those not of that tribe...)

So, even given Greek (or California - nod to Loveitaly) weather, could we really conclude that for people to meet at a cafe would guarantee the happy, positive gathering over the other kind?

Meanwhile I still maintain that slow is overrated as a virtue. I'll leave leisurely transatlantic crossings to my ancestors, who certainly had time to think about life on the way over. Me, I'll take a modern jet streaking across the ocean at 500 miles plus per hour every time.

JJ5

No, I agree, you should be able to envision improvement and to dream without harsh criticism.

But what fries me is the mean-spiritedness, and choice of language these last months here on the "comparison" questions. Something quite different from envisioning improvement. And it has not appeared on this thread.

I have this funny thing called loyality. Not only for the opportunity to make my own success from absolutely nothing (which I have), but for the further opportunity of being able to help mentor along the young ones coming today from "enlightened/progressive" systems that have rejected them.

Wednesday

What I get out of the post and from my experiences when returning home has been that sometimes I wish we were focused more on the "richness" of life rather than being rich with money. I have always tried to take something positive back from people I meet on my travels that are very happy with less "things". Just my experience.

logos999

> the reason you were bombed?
Although this has nothing to do with the subject of this thread. Indiscriminate bombings of residential areas can not be the answer either, people are never only good or bad. Remember that in those days the holocaust wasn't what initiated those bombings, the allied forces didn't care about it until the soldiers saw the "mess" for themself much later. Otherwise they would have reacted differently (I hope).
------------------------------------
> And "backward" is a value judgment
Right, it is hard not to make those judgements. However this does't mean it is negative, it is to say that most of the people still live the way they did decades ago, either because they don't have the money to change things or they simply like that way of life better. While in the cities almost everything has changed, right? If you compare anyplace in Greece and those towns in the US, Greece has "modernized" drastically. And yes, something in me makes me envy those "rural" people in the western US.

JJ5

Well if all the cities are progressive and enlightened and all the rural people are unchanged and "backward". (Or Americans are "backward".) Then call me backward.

Better to be backward than to be "enlightened/advanced", egocentric, selfish, and unconnected as some poor miserable souls I see coming by me out of the city. They act like they've gotten a second life after they experience community and living for more than themselves.

lilminkey

This country is different than most .I worked in New York City Manhattan for several weeks a few years ago,it is hard to believe the energy of that city .It was like being on high alert for 12 hours a day, but I must say it made me feel great,the song said it all if you can make it here you can make it anywhere New York New York. Yea......OLD BLUE EYES!!!

Clifton

JJ5,

I've been reading what you've written on the thread here and have quite enjoyed it your writing. I don't know that I agree with each and every point, but found it well thought out all through. I hadn't posted, since I don't know a thing about Greece, but this seems to have taken on a life outside of the original topic.

One thing I would say, to your loast point, is that misery, I think, as well as happiness, can exist easily in either city or countryside. Coming originally from a town of 256 people, I know that alcholism, abuse, etc do happen commonly in those more pastoral places. While demands on upward mobility aren't as much a concern, sometimes survival or retaining one's home, can be. I suppose it's all just an individual experience when you get down right to it.

One other thing... as far as the making one's own way from nothing. I've often heard the "up by the bootstraps" sort of story. Each time, I've always wondered if that's really possible. I think about where I was at 18-19, living outside behind a dumpster, behind a barred up liquor store off the bay area in Houston. I feel very lucky to be where I've made it to 20 yrs later, but can't help feeling that if it weren't for the kindness of others, seen and unseen, that the trip would have been a short one. Again, possibly an individual experience. But also again, I really have been enjoying your writing.

lilminkey

jj5, The points you make are from a person much like myself we grew up battling every day and so did our families,the ideas of sipping expresso in a cafe to our parents and grandparents were unlikely.more likely they would be serving those people then they would go back to their humble lifestyles trying hard to make it work. My people came to this country not in first class.They came here because they would have died if they stayed in Italy.We have worked hard every day and finally my son broke through and he is A Doctor, but believe me it cost me every cent I had to get him there.I hope he will do the same for his childrren.Life is Hard good luck JJ5 I hope the best for you.

Sandarini

Hi Dice--

20 years ago, after our first trip to Greece, my husband and I felt the exact way you do, in fact all he could talk about was buying a small house in Greece and going to live there as soon as possible. Well, me being the realistic one, knew that would never happen; we could barely afford our modest home here and knew a second home, anywhere, was not in the cards.

Twenty years later, we still live in that same modest home; however, we've incorporated the Greek lifestyle into our everyday life. We have chosen to live modestly, so we can accomodate all that we feel is important to that "lifestyle".

We have a patio with a large tree where we have what we call our "Greek lights"; bare bulbs hanging from the tree limbs. There, we enjoy the warm summer nights listening to our favorite Greek CD's., sipping our ouzo and eating mezes. We just shut our eyes and we can hear the vlisvos (soft lapping of the waves.)

During the year, Greek salad is a staple, as well as, tzaziki, pita, calamari, lamb chops with rosemary, Greek chicken, Greek yogurt & honey, etc. Oh yes, Ouzo & Retsina, too.

Our home is filled with some beautiful Greek prints and some original watercolors, as well. We buy and read anything having to do with Greece. We attend a yearly Greek festival in a large city 1 1/2 hours away, every year. We find & shop at Greek markets, in large cities we visit; for our olive oil, etc. Wherever we travel in the states or Canada, the first thing we do is look for a Greek restaurant; we've had many adventures, meeting some fine Greek Americans. We've hosted Greeks we've meet in Greece in our home, as well as, some Greeks we met while
eating in their Restuarant.

I've read this and other Greek travel boards for years, always planning our next trip. We've been back to Greece only 4 times in the last 20 years, but that's Ok, as you can tell, Greece has not and will never leave us.

Sandy in Oregon

JJ5

Thank you all for the good thoughts and I'm catching the hope and passing it on everyday at my university.

I did the bootstraps thing. It is wholely possible if you have your health. And I never received any welfare, aid from a family members, assisted living arrangements from anyone, food stamps etc. etc. etc. Don't mean that I think those things are bad, just that I never went that route. My kids thought round steak was from the gods. They have marvelous lives, all of them, and they all give back to others as well. All of my education for high degrees was begun after I reached the age of 42.

And Clifton, what you say is especially true. But where I live and particularly in the 1960's,'70's, and 80's- you could definitely count the misery coming out of my city, Chicago. You still can. There's more than one murder a day just from gang banger activity.
It doesn't happen downtown, so the most affluent and tourists only tend to see the flowered toppings.

And in my small MI town of 750 people, when these things are occurring, someone almost always knows and stops the enablers at some point. But you are absolutely right, it happens everywhere. And it is also possible to make / find a slower pace here in the USA- it's out there and a huge country.