I was traveling with my European BIL last week. We were eating at a diner and I asked him about his experiences with "ice cold Cokes" when he moved to the US at 15 years old. He agreed with many of the European Fodorites that he did not understand the appeal of iced drinks.

He also said he didn't understand why Americans "washed" down their food with drinks. Everyone at the table had already had refills on soda. He pointed at his glass - maybe an inch of soda consumed by the end of the meal.

As we talked about sodas, he shared that a milestone of his childhood in Paris was drinking full wine at lunch by the 4th grade. Before then, it was watered down wine. He said "What else could we drink?" He shared that tap water wasn't very good back then and sodas weren't common.

What a difference. Cokes were sold in vending machines during my school days and he was drinking wine with lunch in Paris at the same time!

The US is a strange, strange place. We shout "just say no!" from the rooftops. You can't have alcohol. You're not 21.

Yet it's super, super sexy all over the media. Beer commercials scream this is a product you want. Billboards extoll the coolness of drinking gin.

I prefer the European way. Teach your children how to drink. How to deal with sex. How to be a grown-up, long before they're grown-ups.

Was the tap water not potable where you were dining with your BIL? Soda with a meal? I'm not surprised he only had a sip.

As for drinking pure wine with his meals by the 4th grade, he was lying unless he comes from a family of alcoholics. While most French children have tasted most alcoholic beverages in their young years, it is exceedingly rare for children to drink wine on a regular basis before the age of at least 15. And even in places where people have an aversion to tap water, bottled water has been readily available everywhere since WW2, so I certainly would not use the tap water as an excuse to drink wine.

No. The tap water was not an "excuse" to drink wine. The drinking of wine was cultural.

No. My BIL is not a liar. There has never been a more honest person on the face of this earth. He does not embellish, exagerrate or stretch the truth in any way. In any case, there would be absolutely no reason to do so. This was a casual conversation and he brought up the topic of wine after I asked about ice cold drinks.

I rarely get offended on this board, but kerouac, I am offended by your comments regarding his being a liar unless his family was alcoholic. How incredibly crass of you.

He grew up in Paris in the 1950's. He said tap water in Paris at that time was very iffy. He does agree that tap water in Paris is quite potable now.

How strange that you would question the quality of the drinking water in last week's diner. What in the world does that have to do with anything? I have no idea what the tap water in Nyack, NY tastes like. I was drinking a soda - although probably mixed with local water. No one who drank water with lemon during the week had any complaints though. Geez.

Geez.

I grew up in Rome and although that we always had wine with our meals,I never really cared to drink full wine at dinner unless I mixed it with San Pellegrino, our sparkling water in a bottle.
When a child grow up knowings that drinking is not a sin, the child when he/she get older does not care to drink the forbidden nectar.

Our bars are open places where people can enjoy a gelato, a coffee or an aperitif and nobody get drunk there, unless of course they are young Americans that dont know how to handle liquers or beers.

I always remember the first time that I went to Frankfurt to visit my pen pal.

I never saw so many young Americans drunk as skunks in my life.
They were far away from home, nobody told them what to do and for the first time in their life, were free to drink as there were not tomorrow.
It was a truly pathetic scene.

Yes kismetchimera just like colleges in the US where the majority of the students "qualify" as binge alcoholics.

It is sad.

I completely agree. Neither my BIL nor his 25yo son drinks. "Forbidden nectar" is right.

Oh and don't forget. Fully 1/2 (yes 50%) of pregnancies in the US are unplanned. New millennium or not that's still a stunning slap in the face to the so-called "abstinence" people.

starrsville, thanks for reminding us that there are still some "old fashioned" Europeans around. I've seen enough young people (and older ones too for that matter) in Europe recently washing down coke after coke with meals. To think it is strictly a US custom is nonsense -- especially these days. I know some Americans who never drink coke or any other carbonated drinks. And oddly enough I'd guess I was in about the 4th grade when my parents started serving me wine with dinner (on special occasions) and we lived in OHIO!

Out of curiousity, do you also agree with the Europeans not allowing those under 18 to receive a driver's license?

Neo, I agree. I asked the ice cold coke question because I got slammed on this board by Europeans on an earlier thread and got lecture after lecture by a certain Fodorite who needed to convince me/ us that it was horrible for digestion. BIL agreed that he had not been served an ice cold soda before he moved to the US at 15 - and that his family also believed that cold drinks were bad for the digestion. Of course, his soda was ice cold while we were having this conversation - and his children have only known sodas served with ice. I assume his feelings toward digestion problems have changed. His feelings on "washing down" food with liquids have not.

My parents never hid the alcohol or attached any stigma to drinking and none of their kids have ever had a drinking problem.

wren, my BIL traveled all over Europe via trains throughout his teens. I was totally amazed at the freedom he was given to go on weekend and summer trips alone. Perhaps there is less of a need to drive a personal car? In any case, his son did not even apply for a driver's license until a full year after he was old enough. Again, the son lived in an area of good public transportation and functioned well without a driver's license. Perhaps the two are connected? My friend from NYC has never driven and has never felt the need to apply for a drivers license. I can tell you I was the polar opposite on this one though!

Well neither I nor anyone in my family or my late husband's is an alcoholic thank goodness. But I remember as a little girl being given a glass with some wine in it that had water added to it at dinner. I don't know if it was every dinner or just Sunday dinner however. I an still remember the glass (nonstem, I was a sloppy kid, lol). We had a bottle of wine on the table every night at dinner and as we grew older, perhaps around age 10, if we wanted a bit "straight" my father served it to us at and that point no water was added. My father (who was raised in Australia btw) felt that wine was a civilized drink to have with a meal. How proud he would be of the wines the Aussie's are now producing.

And my maternal grandfather who was from Germany had vineyards in Lodi, CA. He sold the grapes to wineries but he made his own wine for home consumption.

I grew up not thinking of wine as alcohol. I remember going to parties in HS and being shocked at fellow students that got smashing drunk..and yes they were the ones generally speaking whose parents thought even drinking wine was a sin.

My daughter and stepchildren grew up as I did regarding wine.

This is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Cross my heart!

Hi starrsville, wish we could be having a glass of wine together this evening!!

I have long heard that most German children - - beyond the age of breastfeeding - - were raised on beer, for a decade or more around WWII. There were, as I have been led to believe, essentially no dairy products available to much of the general public.

And even today, a (very large) beer (by American standards) seemed to be an essential part of the lunch break (for the highly skilled automotive workers), when I went on the Porsche factory tour in Stuttgart.

Best wishes,

Rex

That is interesting Rex, and sad of course too. Is there any nourishment in beer? BTW, I had read your post and had to leave. A neighbor has a gentleman visiting her who is from Baden-Baden Germany and is the age that he would have been a child during WWII and after. Such a strong and healthy looking fellow. It got me thinking about various people from Germany I have know that had grown up during the time period you are referring to and they all seem healthy and strong. Maybe beer is good for a growing child, lol. A child not having milk is not funny of course but that thought did go through my mind while driving. Take care.

Although not rich in calcium, I guess, I would say that beer compares not so bad as a substitute for milk. Certainly comparable in calories. A diet from that era might have had plenty of calcium through cabbages and related products, I think. Protein and fats would be lacking in any "famine" dietary regimen (all bread and potatoes is the usual "bad" diet that leads to malnourished children).

I have heard lots of stories from my mother's childhood in Germany. She bathed her pet pig in the tub unknowing that it would soon be dinner. She milked plenty of goats and sheep. But the one thing she did not do as a child was drink beer, lol. Maybe she should have had a few before learning the fate of her beloved pig...

In none of the public schools I attended was anything available to drink except milk and water. Definitely no soda machines. I think the teachers would have been horrified to see an elementary school child drinking anything other than milk at lunch (this was before raised consciousness about lactose intolerance and the invasion of juice boxes).
I don't like icy cold drinks in the U.S. or Europe--they make my teeth hurt. I drink maybe 3 cokes a year although I am pretty addicted to sparkling water (no ice in that either, it just makes it go flat faster).
Re Germans and beer, I toured a plant making very sophisticated medical equipment and their workers also thought nothing of having a beer with lunch. Just one though.
I worked in Brussels at one of the mega pharma companies and they had a supposedly very strict no drinking policy. Not even for special lunches for guests....BUT one of the desserts offered every day in the company cafeteria was baba au rhum. I tried one and it had almost half a cup of rum in it! Two of those and I would have been out for the afternoon. Those babas were very popular with staff on Fridays ;-)

In the Lehigh Valley (PA) where I grew up, there was one bar famous (or infamous) as being the place where local teenagers could get a beer, as long as they limited themselves to just one and behaved themselves. It was a PA German farming and steelworkers community, so nobody thought anything untoward about farm or steel kids quietly having *one* beer. Even the cops knew about it, but turned a blind eye (most of them had been to the bar themselves as teenagers).

I grew up with wine on the table, always. We were allowed a small glass at holidays and Sundays, even as small children. My parents did not drink other alcohol, and neither did any of our relatives; just wine. And yet, as a teen, I was always getting smashing drunk at any chance I had. Just thought I would add that to show that the European way isn't a gaurantee against teenagers being binge drinkers.

Starrsville and Loveitaly can I come over for a glass of wine?
We let our 17 year old drink wine on this latest europe trip. I grew up with wine at the dinner table.My mom is Colombian. When our son turned 15 we started to introduce wine at the dinner table. I hope I'm doing the right thing ,but my older son has told me horror stories of kids who are in college and don't know how to drink, they end up getting blasted all of the time.
Give me 5 minutes..I'll be right over.

Well, I was raised with small glasses of wine on special occasions from the time I was a child & drinking in my family wasn't frowned on.

I've successfully been in AA for over 32 years now but was a full-blown alcoholic by the age of 22. I certainly see a large amount of young drunks on the tube & in the streets at night in London so I'm not sure this whole prudish America slant in this thread is accurate.