Full wine by 4th grade
Sep 9th, 2006, 05:11 PM
#21
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Interesting point Carrybean. And congrats for doing so well.
Growing up, I never saw my parents take more than two glasses or wine or one beer over an entire evening. I never saw either of them even slightly drunk. Never. I never saw any of my friend's parents drink more than a glass or two of wine and only at special dinners. The one case of beer my parents kept in the basement lasted months. The only time my parents served alcohol at dinner was Thanksgiving (and then it was that awful Cold Duck). There was no pressure not to drink, it just wasn't part of the culture. I seldom drink more than two glasses of wine in an evening. None of my childhood friends grew up to be more than light social drinkers. With that background, coming to the UK has been...eye opening.
Growing up, I never saw my parents take more than two glasses or wine or one beer over an entire evening. I never saw either of them even slightly drunk. Never. I never saw any of my friend's parents drink more than a glass or two of wine and only at special dinners. The one case of beer my parents kept in the basement lasted months. The only time my parents served alcohol at dinner was Thanksgiving (and then it was that awful Cold Duck). There was no pressure not to drink, it just wasn't part of the culture. I seldom drink more than two glasses of wine in an evening. None of my childhood friends grew up to be more than light social drinkers. With that background, coming to the UK has been...eye opening.
Sep 9th, 2006, 05:20 PM
#22
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Forgot to add, that when I went on a high school trip to France, even though it was a scholastic student tour, we were served wine at dinners during the trip and toured a winery and were encouraged to sample the wine. Since then, European tours for high school students have gotten incredibly strict about that. I remember reading how some Colorado student (an honor student) on a short exchange program was suspended for having one small glass of beer with his host German family. I thought that punishment was more than a little excessive.
Sep 9th, 2006, 05:27 PM
#23
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"I don't like icy cold drinks in the U.S. or Europe--they make my teeth hurt."
I'd agree with that, and ice in a drink makes it noisy, too.
In my early twenties I visited my wife's aunt in Somerset. She offered us gin and tonic before dinner. The tonic was at room temperature and there was no ice. It tasted better than any mixed drink I'd ever had, and I have pretty much shunned ice ever since.
Anselm
I'd agree with that, and ice in a drink makes it noisy, too.
In my early twenties I visited my wife's aunt in Somerset. She offered us gin and tonic before dinner. The tonic was at room temperature and there was no ice. It tasted better than any mixed drink I'd ever had, and I have pretty much shunned ice ever since.
Anselm
Sep 9th, 2006, 06:03 PM
#26
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BTilke, where in the Lehigh Valley are you from? Allentown? Quakertown?
My DIL is from Shamokin.
My parents are both European (Italy, Poland) and I think it is ridiculous to write that giving children alcohol will prepare them for responsible drinking later on in life. That is BULLCRAP. There are plenty of alcoholic, binge-drinking Europeans.
Starrsville, why don't we all go out and get our 4th-graders a hooker??
Christine
My DIL is from Shamokin.
My parents are both European (Italy, Poland) and I think it is ridiculous to write that giving children alcohol will prepare them for responsible drinking later on in life. That is BULLCRAP. There are plenty of alcoholic, binge-drinking Europeans.
Starrsville, why don't we all go out and get our 4th-graders a hooker??
Christine
Sep 9th, 2006, 06:31 PM
#28
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"colleges in the US where the majority of the students "qualify" as binge alcoholics."
<b>Gross generalization and stupid remark, indytravel. </b>
Yes, pointing out the stupidity of your remark is worth being banned from Fodors. And (in for a penny, in for a pound) I think that fourth graders who drink wine are pathetic little children who have bad parents. It reminds me of the pool repairman we had who chain smoked, and remarked that he had started smoking at age 6. His father had given him his first cigarette because they thought it was "cute." That's very, very lower class---giving children adult beverages or other vices---in American, Europe, or on the moon.
<b>Gross generalization and stupid remark, indytravel. </b>
Yes, pointing out the stupidity of your remark is worth being banned from Fodors. And (in for a penny, in for a pound) I think that fourth graders who drink wine are pathetic little children who have bad parents. It reminds me of the pool repairman we had who chain smoked, and remarked that he had started smoking at age 6. His father had given him his first cigarette because they thought it was "cute." That's very, very lower class---giving children adult beverages or other vices---in American, Europe, or on the moon.
Sep 9th, 2006, 06:46 PM
#29
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Gross generalization? Really.
Enter "binge drinking" into google.com and see what you come up with.
This one?
http://www.cspinet.org/booze/collfact1.htm
How about this one.
http://www.securityoncampus.org/update/news/032502.html
Maybe this one:
http://www.intheknowzone.com/binge/stats.htm
Oh wait a minute, only 42% on this site.
Maybe all these web sites are wrong. Maybe drinking isn't a problem in the US.
Pretending it isn't a problem is also a problem.
Enter "binge drinking" into google.com and see what you come up with.
This one?
http://www.cspinet.org/booze/collfact1.htm
How about this one.
http://www.securityoncampus.org/update/news/032502.html
Maybe this one:
http://www.intheknowzone.com/binge/stats.htm
Oh wait a minute, only 42% on this site.
Maybe all these web sites are wrong. Maybe drinking isn't a problem in the US.
Pretending it isn't a problem is also a problem.
Sep 9th, 2006, 06:49 PM
#31
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Due to my mother's uncle being an alcholic I was tut-tutted at an early age when the subject of alcohol came up. I never had a drink until I was about 21 years old. I never really wanted one, I watched other kids get stone drunk but I would drink a coke just because I liked the taste.
When I started going out to nice restaurants I would have wine with dinner. Then when I would go to clubs I would have a Tom Collins (remember those?) because I was so warm from dancing the Collins were refreshing.
I have been drunk twice in my life and it was so unpleasant I decided never to do that again. I have a few glasses of wine in a week. More, if I am in Italy!!
I don't know where I fit in this theory, starrsville.
When I started going out to nice restaurants I would have wine with dinner. Then when I would go to clubs I would have a Tom Collins (remember those?) because I was so warm from dancing the Collins were refreshing.
I have been drunk twice in my life and it was so unpleasant I decided never to do that again. I have a few glasses of wine in a week. More, if I am in Italy!!
I don't know where I fit in this theory, starrsville.
Sep 9th, 2006, 06:54 PM
#32
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It's not a theory - at least, it's not my theory.
kerouac called my BIL a liar - or claimed his parents were alcoholic.
Neither is true. kerouac. john. 2tired.
I'm exhausted from their antics.
If nothing else, it confirms that people are stranger than one can imagine.
john/handmaiden/IOC equates wine with hookers.
2tired asserts there aren't any problems with binge drinking on college campuses.
I give up. Let them take over this thread and this board with their parallel universe.
kerouac called my BIL a liar - or claimed his parents were alcoholic.
Neither is true. kerouac. john. 2tired.
I'm exhausted from their antics.
If nothing else, it confirms that people are stranger than one can imagine.
john/handmaiden/IOC equates wine with hookers.
2tired asserts there aren't any problems with binge drinking on college campuses.
I give up. Let them take over this thread and this board with their parallel universe.
Sep 9th, 2006, 07:06 PM
#33
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Frankly, I don't think that it really matters at what age one takes a drink. That will not an alcoholic make. You either are or you aren't. My ex-husband is an alcoholic, drank for 30 years and bless him has been sober for the last 15 years, but he is still and alcoholic. My older brother and SIL are both alcoholics, my younger brother and myself luckily are not. We had almost no alcohol in the house when I was growing up and years later, reading between the lines, I think my dad did or could have had a drinking problem. I drank quite a bit in college, never did the binge thing, but as I got older and wiser, I just finally realized I didn't like it and didn't have to do it. I still rarely drink, I just don't care much about it.
I don't really approve much of giving alcohol to small children just because of their small size and weight, I think it could be dangerous. However, a child being given a sip of wine is certainly not a "sin", and trust me, it won't MAKE him an alcoholic. Like I say, you are or you aren't and drinking does NOT make you one.
I don't really approve much of giving alcohol to small children just because of their small size and weight, I think it could be dangerous. However, a child being given a sip of wine is certainly not a "sin", and trust me, it won't MAKE him an alcoholic. Like I say, you are or you aren't and drinking does NOT make you one.
Sep 9th, 2006, 09:14 PM
#35
In my book, a 4th grader is 9 years old. Drinking pure wine with lunch is not normal and certainly nothing to brag about. You can be offended all you want, starrsville, if you think that is a good thing.
But perhaps the BIL was talking about being in "quatrième," which, as all of you know, translates to 8th grade.
But perhaps the BIL was talking about being in "quatrième," which, as all of you know, translates to 8th grade.
Sep 9th, 2006, 09:26 PM
#36
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I am not in the least offended by your opinion that drinking wine at lunch is "not normal". "Normal" is based on your frame of reference. Your frame of reference was, and is not, the same as his as a child growing up in Paris in the 1950's. Other Fodorites experience attest to the fact that your frame of reference (as an American now living in France, I believe) is not relevant to the reality of my BIL's experience - and many others.
Your last post is not in any way offensive. You have your opinion and you just stated an opinion in a non-offensive manner. I may or may not agree with it. I may or may not agree with many opinions on this board. That is what makes a forum such as this very interesting.
Your original comment however, is HIGHLY OFFENSIVE. Because something does not match up with your frame of reference does not excuse you or should not allow you to say "As for drinking pure wine with his meals by the 4th grade, he was lying unless he comes from a family of alcoholics". That comment is completely offensive.
My BIL is fluent in five languages and even you would not have any difficulty understanding what he says. He said "4th grade" - he meant "4th grade".
Wine with lunch at 4th grade was very much "normal" for him. Watered down wine prior to 4th grade was very much "normal" for him. Access to a soft drink machine in his elementary school was not "normal" for him. At breaks during school I would go to the vending machine and buy a Grape Nehi. It was a treat for me because I was not allowed Grape Nehis at home.
Wine in Paris for a child's lunch = normal for him. Not normal for you and me (if you did indeed grow up in US).
Sodas sold and/or served in elementary schools = normal for me. Not normal for him.
Your frame of reference does not define normal for everyone else (thank God).
Your last post is not in any way offensive. You have your opinion and you just stated an opinion in a non-offensive manner. I may or may not agree with it. I may or may not agree with many opinions on this board. That is what makes a forum such as this very interesting.
Your original comment however, is HIGHLY OFFENSIVE. Because something does not match up with your frame of reference does not excuse you or should not allow you to say "As for drinking pure wine with his meals by the 4th grade, he was lying unless he comes from a family of alcoholics". That comment is completely offensive.
My BIL is fluent in five languages and even you would not have any difficulty understanding what he says. He said "4th grade" - he meant "4th grade".
Wine with lunch at 4th grade was very much "normal" for him. Watered down wine prior to 4th grade was very much "normal" for him. Access to a soft drink machine in his elementary school was not "normal" for him. At breaks during school I would go to the vending machine and buy a Grape Nehi. It was a treat for me because I was not allowed Grape Nehis at home.
Wine in Paris for a child's lunch = normal for him. Not normal for you and me (if you did indeed grow up in US).
Sodas sold and/or served in elementary schools = normal for me. Not normal for him.
Your frame of reference does not define normal for everyone else (thank God).
Sep 9th, 2006, 10:03 PM
#37
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starrsville, being called a liar seems to be a fairly common thing around here. I recently innocently mentioned that twice in France restaurants refused to take a MasterCard (as soon as they saw it, not because the card wouldn't work) but that they would take VISA. I was called a liar as that simply couldn't happen. It was NOT possible that a lowly waiter could have been mistaken for example. I'm not sure how these people who aren't in a certain place at a certain time are able to know what did or didn't happen as opposed to those of us who lived these experiences. Since I mentioned I was in about the fourth grade when I was first given wine with a dinner by my family, I suppose I'm next to be called a liar once again!
Sep 9th, 2006, 10:15 PM
#38
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Oh starrsville and Neo I have had two or three posters that from time to time challenge everything I say and indicate I am a liar. It used to upset me but now I just chuckle about it and wonder what in heavens name is their problem. As you know I have had the same screen name since I originally posted on Fodors..whenever that was, sometime after 9-11-01 I believe. I always say I have only been to Italy except for a short trip into Switzerland as far as Europe is concerned. I have said time and time again I was born and raised in the SF/Bay Area. That my mother's maternal side of the family came to SF shortly after the Civil War. But in the past I have been accused of never having been in SF, of knowing nothing about Italy etc etc.
Just ignore those type of posters or BLAST them. Just do whatever works for you but please don't let people like that upset you. You are both to special to worry about a few unpleasant and grumpy posters.
Just ignore those type of posters or BLAST them. Just do whatever works for you but please don't let people like that upset you. You are both to special to worry about a few unpleasant and grumpy posters.
Sep 9th, 2006, 10:15 PM
#39
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LOL, Neo!
And, next I will be called a liar because I said that soda machines sold Grape Nehis in my elementary school in the 4th grade. Of COURSE, I have to be lying because sodas weren't sold in xyz's elementary school! Don't people realize how narrow-minded they sound when they can't conceptualize that others' experiences are different from theirs?
What possible reason would you have to make up the Mastercard story?!?! These flamers need to get a grip.
And, next I will be called a liar because I said that soda machines sold Grape Nehis in my elementary school in the 4th grade. Of COURSE, I have to be lying because sodas weren't sold in xyz's elementary school! Don't people realize how narrow-minded they sound when they can't conceptualize that others' experiences are different from theirs?
What possible reason would you have to make up the Mastercard story?!?! These flamers need to get a grip.
Sep 9th, 2006, 10:20 PM
#40
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LoveItaly, the thought that has been bothering me the most since kerouac's unbalanced post was "Is HE what Parisians think Americans are like?". I shudder to think that such a small-minded, black & white, "I'm right so therefore you are wrong" approach to others is representing an "American" point of view. That is truly distressing. I would love to attach a sign to his back that says "This man does not represent all Americans". Such sarcasm and condescending tone in his posts.
Okay. Good advice, LI. Just let it go.
Okay. Good advice, LI. Just let it go.
