mjs

I think Stu’s itinerary is a reasonable one. There are however other options such as Paris-Tuscany -Rome that would work.

StuDudley

How does one get from Paris to Tuscany in less than 3 hrs. All the travel times I suggested were less than 3 hrs.. The Val d'Orcia in Tuscany is perhaps our favorite "non-Paris" spot in all of Europe. But it takes some doin' to get there. Much more difficult/time consuming than Provence or the Cote d'Azur - assuming Paris is in the itinerary.

Stu Dudley

wollastoni

There are two points of entry from France to Italy :
- the French Alpes : I recommend visiting them in winter when there is snow if you guys like skiing, or in summer during the hiking season.
- the French Riviera (Provence) : I think it is the most wonderful region of Europe (especially Luberon, Alpilles, Côte d'Azur) : https://www.provenceweb.fr/e/index.htm
I recommend Provence in April/June and September/October when it's not overcrowded and not too hot.

mjs

I do not understand the reason for a 3 hour limit for moving from one destination to another. If the op wants to spend some time in Italy as well as France they can fly directly from Paris to Florence in about an hour and 45 minutes. Spend something like 5 nights in Paris than move on to Tuscany for the rest of their time with the last destination of Rome for at least one night before flying home.

StuDudley

We never fly inter-europe. IMO, it wastes too much time and adds too much stress. I make sure my itineraries don't box me into a corner where an inter-europe flight is necessary. If so - I change the itinerary. The only time we found it necessary, was a connection from SFO to FRA to Florence. When we boarded for Florence, they would not allow our carry-on luggage into the passenger cabin. We had to "check it in" at the gate to the plane. Ours is small compared to others, but too big for this puddle-jumper. We rented a car in Florence, but the rental office was too far from the airport so we had to take a cab. And it was a bit difficult navigating out of Florence. Imagine doing this for 7 people - 2-3 cabs to CDG or Orly, 2-3 cabs in Florence.

There is no magic in 3 hours limit. It is just a rule of thumb for me. If I have a "move" longer than 4 hours - I change the itinerary.

The TGV from Avignon to the Gare de Lyon in Paris is simple. The station is easy to get to, turning in the car is a no-brainer, finding the departing track is easy, and no luggage check-in or pick-up. We often have meals at the Gare de Lyon Tran Bleu restaurant - which I consider to be a "sight-seeing" destination. In June, we took the TGV from Avignon to Paris & dined at Train Bleu. We took 5 trips to/from the Gare de Lyon & southern France this year & last.
https://www.le-train-bleu.com/en/

Stu Dudley

bilboburgler

Internal Europe flights, check out of hotel often at some god-awful hour, travel to airport, get through security, wait for flight, fly, wait for security travel to next city centre check in.

Kills half a day everytime

Train, leave hotel at a civilised hour, wander to train, board, drink coffee, arrive, walk to hotel. Often faster than aircraft.

mjs

Stu I do not disagree with your premises and take the train most times over flying. 5 1/2 hours train from Copenhagen to Stockholm last year as an example. In this case however if the OP wants to visit Tuscany and Paris, it’s 1:40 min direct flight vs 9 hours by train with connection.

mjs

In fact I am currently on a train from
Kyoto to Nara. Interesting. Our train came into the station and the passengers disembarked on the other side. A man than came through the cabin and switched all the seats in reverse so we would be facing the direction the train was traveling. Lastly cleaning people came through than we were let on.

StuDudley

I would never take a train for more than 5 hours. But I would revise the itinerary before I would take a plane.

If the OP wants to visit Tuscany from Paris - I would advise him to forget either Paris or Tuscany and do something like Venice, Tuscany, Rome or the Paris/Cote d'Azur/Provence plan I proposed. The 1 1/2 hr flight door-to-door is going to consume most of the day for 7 travelers with typical "too much" luggage. I also suspect most of them are not experienced foreign travelers (do they speak/read both French & Italian?).

Stu Dudley

Sassafrass

It is always nice to help someone figure out the best way to achieve their travel objectives. Sometimes their objectives are not all possible or workable, so next thing is helping with advice or how best to revise their itinerary to still come as close as possible to their goals. I think the OP is underestimating how many days they have and travel time. They have 16 nights, not 16 days, etc. They will need to think seriously about modes of travel for getting from base to base and for sightseeing, and how that will affect lodging location. They need to realistically calculate total travel times, not just flight or train times. IMHO, they will need to cut something, perhaps even reverse the itinerary, but what depends on their most important interests. When the OP returns with more information, they can be given options.

SusanP

The OP already said that he will take all the suggestions back to his family and come back with a revised itinerary.

janisj

^^^ this -- most posts since #10 three days ago are just arguing with each other over who travels smarter. Let's wait to see what the OP comes up with . . .

craigvattiat2624

Wow, what a lively discussion! Again, I appreciate everyone's input. It's been very helpful.

This won't be our first time traveling to Europe, but we also aren't seasoned travelers. As a few of you have said, we're trying to hit a few places each family member wants to visit. Yes, it will lead to more "getting there" and less "being there", but we are a diverse group and will have to each make some compromises. My brother and older daughter really want to visit the Alps, thus the stop in Chamonix/Annecy. My wife and younger daughter really want to visit Italy. My mom and dad want my girls to see both France and Italy. I'm cool staying in one country, but we have to all agree on a plan.

The thing we liked about our original itinerary was that we'd spend some time in a big city (Paris), some time in the mountains (French Alps), some time on the beach (Amalfi Coast) and some time in small hillside towns (Tuscany). We like the idea of a variety of different environments.

I suggested we get that experience by staying in one country (France), but again, my family REALLY wants to spend time in both countries. So, we will.

Here's the new plan, which isn't very different from the old one, we just removed Tuscany from the equation. You probably won't like this plan either; maybe we can't be helped.

June 15-19 Paris
June 20 - Travel day. Leave Paris and take the train to Chamonix
June 21-23 Chamonix with a day trip to Annecy?
June 24 - Travel day. Chamonix to Sorrento - Is this even possible in 1 day? If so, best mode of travel?
June 25-28 Sorrento
June 29 Travel day. Travel to Rome
June 30 full day in Rome
July 1 - fly home

Does anyone have an alternative suggestion for how to meet our desire to get a bit of France and Italy, AND hit the mountains, coast, small towns, and a big city while reducing travel time? Be gentle.

A few other notes:

• We don't speak French or Italian. My girls speak Spanish.
• We won't likely rent a car, but we haven't really looked into the details of how to get to each destination yet. I know that's important.
• We're in it for a bit of everything: food, culture, art, archaeology, scenery.

swandav2000

Hi craigvattiat2624,

To get from Chamonix to Sorrento, take the bus from Chamonix to the Geneva airport, then fly to Naples and get transportation from there to Sorrento. Sorry I've never been to Amalfi Coast, but others will be able to advise you.

Train info in France: sncf.com is the website of the national rail service, and others here like trainline.com.

Have fun as you plan!

s

SusanP

You're going to waste a lot of time with the distance between all these places, but if you insist...
While five days is in no way too much for Paris, take one day from there and add it to Rome.

StuDudley

"""but we haven't really looked into the details of how to get to each destination""

That is very obvious!!!

You are dreaming!!!

Stu Dudley

mjs

This is a little bit like putting lipstick on a pig but I suppose you could skip Paris and fly into Geneva, do what you want in the alps than fly to Naples as suggested above. You than hire a small bus and driver to take you to Sorrento, spend your time in the AC than onto Rome for your big city experience.

bvlenci

Sorrento is a 12-hour drive from Chamonix, and I don't think it would be possible in one day by public transportation. Also, remember that Chamonix is also a long haul from Paris, something like 6 hours and 3 changes of train. Every change of train is an opportunity for something to go wrong and screw up your whole itinerary. Miss one connection and you might be stuck overnight in some town you never heard of.

I have a few alternative suggestions that might satisfy all your requirements.

June 15-19 Paris

June 20th

1st option Fly to Bergamo (Easy Jet or Ryanair). The Italian Alps are just at your doorstep there. Maybe you could rent a car there, or take a bus to an Alpine village. Maybe necker could advise on this. Or you could stay in Bergamo and take day trips into the mountains.

2nd option Fly to Venice. Spend the night there and take the express bus to Cortina d'Ampezzo the next day. Cortina is a ski resort, but you can rent a car or take a bus to a mountain village.

I would have a slight preference for the second option, which is a bit easier transfer-wise, and would give you a glimpse of Venice, robbing a day from your next destination.

June 24 - Travel day to Sorrento from wherever. This will still be an arduous trip, but much better than the trip from Chamonix.

June 25-28 Sorrento
June 29 Travel day. Travel to Rome
June 30 full day in Rome
July 1 - fly home

Sorrento is not on the Amalfi Coast, but it can be a base for excursions to various Amalfi Coast towns, as well as Capri and Pompeii.

I would strongly advise skipping the Amalfi Coast altogether and substituting either a town on the Ligurian Coast or one of Italy's great lakes. I don't see that anyone in your group specifically wanted to see the Amalfi Coast. It's not really a beach destination anyway, with small rocky beaches. My choice would be Lake Garda, easily reached from Venice, or Lake Como, convenient to Bergamo. If you want a sandy beach, to lie in the sun and swim in the water, there are tons of other choices. Italy has 7,500 km of coastline.

I also second the previous suggestion to take a day from Paris and add it to Rome. In that case, move all the dates above to one day earlier.

bvlenci

Whether you travel by car or by train, you will have to keep luggage to a bare minimum. The luggage of seven people won't fit into a normal car, or even a normal van, unless you restrict the sizes. On a train, especially the local trains that arrive in small villages, you won't find generous storage space. Also getting all seven people with large suitcases on an off trains, and to the track of your next train, is problematic.

I would rigourously enforce a limit of one small suitcase for each person, about 50 cm (20 inches) high. In addition a small daypack or purse for each person. (This will be useful for excursions, either in cities or on hiking trails.)

bilboburgler

Liguria is the answer, somewhere like Sanremo or Savona or Imperia are just as pretty, good beaches, nice restaurants just international tourists.