Hi everyone,

My husband and I are going to London in September with our 15 month old baby to visit family that recently moved there. We're travelling in Virgin Premium Economy, and my parents will be on the same flight with us in Economy. Initially, we were all in economy but my husband and I upgraded to Premium because we figured it would give us some more space, a bit easier check in, etc. and hopefully make our first flying with baby more pleasant.

I have a few questions I hope you can answer...

1) We are thinking of using the Baby B'Air Vest to restrain her on my lap. Has anyone used it? And I've read that it can't be used on takeoff and landing... so what do you do with a lap-riding baby during takeoff and landing? Do they have something else they provide to secure the baby?

2) Are we crazy to fly without buying her her own ticket? I'll probably be flogged here on Fodors but we didn't buy her a ticket because we knew she'd probably be crawling all over us anyway and she sleeps so very well in my arms. Plus, Virgin said you can't bring on your own carseat anyway... so we just assumed that she'd be safest on our laps. To compensate for the (dis)comfort of having a toddler in one of our laps, we went ahead and bought premium economy... it ended up being about the same as 3 seats in economy. And we figured we're guaranteed the bulkhead bassinet with an infant ticket, so it seemed the perfect plan. However, since buying our tickets, all I've read says that you should have your child in a carseat, and I'm now rethinking our plans. Of course I don't want to endanger my precious babe. Now I'm serious wondering how we can convince Virgin to move us back into economy on a packed flight, even though my husband says people travel with lap-held babies every day all over the world without incident.

3) I'm still nursing her (yes, people do still nurse at this age) though she does know how to drink from a sippy cup. However, I don't know how she'll handle the pressure in her ears on takeoff and landing, and she may want/need revert to nursing if the sippy cup doesn't help her. Are there any restrictions about nursing a baby during takeoff and landing? I guess I was naively thinking I could just let her sit there on my lap and nurse with the baby b'air vest on, let her get into the most comfortable position she can find and just fall asleep... believe me, it's the way to keep her quiet and asleep on that flight. But now I'm questioning whether that will even be allowed. Will she need to be sitting upright, in my lap, facing out? What can I expect in terms of regulations?

4) Does anyone know what a bulkhead bassinet looks like or if they have any size limits? Virgin has us noted that we'd like a bulkhead bassinet for the flight... just wondering how they attach to the wall, etc. Do those have restraints on them if we actually were able to get her to fall asleep on it?

5) In the event we do switch back to Economy, assuming that's even possible, Virgin says you can't bring on your carseat, so what do they provide when you purchase a toddler a seat? (Heck, we aren't even planning on bringing our carseat because we're only doing London and Paris and won't have a car during the trip.)

Most of the people I know who travel to Europe with their children regularly say they never buy the younger kids a seat. So it never even occurred to me that we might want to. Ugh!

Thanks in advance for your help on this.

~kat

I always flew with my under 2 year olds on my lap. I'm kinda glad I made it through those years just not knowing any better.

If you are holding a child in your lap, it is OK to breastfeed. I would always let them nurse through most of the flight.

I would vote, however, for 3 economy seats if you can change it, even if you can't bring on a safety seat.
I tried first class twice with my kids and found both times that passengers in first class do not want to tolerate anything from children. Also, getting the baby off your lap to sit in the middle seat will be a relief at times.

I would check with Virgin to see if there is any type of booster seat or safety device that they do allow. If they don't, depending on the size of your 15 month old, a regular seat belt on their lap may be safer than being on your lap.

In regards to a restraint during take off and landing they provide this seat belt attachment thingy that you strap into your own seatbelt then you seatbelt the child as they sit on your lap. You could maybe breastfeed during this time with a little adjustment of the belt.

The bassinet they provide is not very big - it is probably 22" long? I am guessing - very tight for an older toldler. We used one when our sone was about 11 moths old and that was it - it wasn't strong enough for him after that point in his life and he never wanted to stay in it as he was a little older. If the seatbelt sign goes on at all they make you take the baby out of the bassinet (yes even if she is sleeping) and strapped back into a seatbelt (or the seatbelt attachment if you didn't buy the extra seat) - that was the worse part about it.

We've flown both ways with our kids (every year of their life) - as a baby the bassinet is great...as a toddler - it just doesn't work (unless your child is really small and doesn't like to climb out of things). There is a weight limit to the thing - call Virgin and ask. I would vote for the extra seat because then you can fold up the arm rests and put the baby between you and kep her strapped in the seatbelt at all times even while she's sleeping then you don't have to bother her during turbulent weather.

Whatever you choose - it will work out fine. luck.

Call Virgin or check the website. The website says "skycots" are provided for infants up to 12 mos. After that, for kids up to 36 mos, they have a chair specially designed for the aircraft but you have to buy a child fare to use it.

We made the trip overseas a number of times on Virgin when our child was a toddler and purchased a seat on each occasion. We did the same thing 4totravel does...lifted the armrest, but the baby in the middle and used one of our laps as the pillow. Don't know how easy the special seats are to sleep in as Virgin didn't offer them at the time.

Of course most lap held babies fly without incident. Most flights never experience the kind of turbulence or, God forbid, worse that could harm a lap held child. Most people don't NEED to wear a seatbelt to survive a trip either.

THere was a plane crash many years ago where the top of the plane was blown off the plane. There were survivors, but no children in their parents laps survived however. Is that likely to happen again? No. But there's a reason they have seat belts and if you need them, your child is not safe in your lap. They could say "oh well most of the time the plane doesn't crash so we don't need seat belts" Like "Oh most of the time the boat doesn't sink, so we don't need enough life boats for everyone" Most of the time the plane doesn't crash so you don't need to restrain your child.

That's why children need seat belts in cars, because it's been proven you cannot hold your child in your lap in a crash. When my kids were babies we ddin't have much money but that didn't stop me from buying a ticket for my baby and strapping her in her car seat in her own seat.
You have a seat belt - is your safety more important?

Joelle

I always bought a seat for our son, even when he was 3 months old. We took him to Italy when he was 13 mo. old, and also bought him a seat. Back then (14 years ago), you were allowed to bring a car seat -- I'm glad to hear they now have seats specially designed for aircraft that they will provide you -- back then, we had to stow the car seat at the airport for the duration of the land portion of our trip.

I consider it a smart, safety move, and frankly was scared smart by some of the information I had read over the gravity/turbulence issue and children flying out of your hands. When our son was two, we had horrible turbulence on a flight from Toronto during bad weather (never again!), and that extra cost was well worth the price during the several hundred foot drop of the plane during that flight.

Joelle, I don't think kat considers her own safety to be more important than her child's. She's hasn't flown with the baby before and is asking about the various configurations and any restraints they might offer.

Please dear lord don't let me be the one who has to sit next to them.

How can a large squirming & nursing toddler, being held on your lap, on a long flight to Europe (assuming you're traveling from the US/Canada) be comfortable for anyone involved? I don't know about the safety factors for the child, but hopefully it is not allowed since it would be incredibly inconsiderate at best to those around you. Babies flying are bad enough (what if we all cried loudly on the plane when we felt like it?)... please at least buy the child a seat.

For the airline regulations, I suggest contactingvarious airlines you'd consider using. Like other rules (suitcase allowances etc.) it's best to have the real info from your carrier along with the opinions and past experiences of other parents.

Kat,

First: do not feel discouraged by negative/useless advice. You can travel with a baby on your lap and, believe me, even if you did buy her a seat, she would probably travel on your lap. Ignore if people complain when she cries or moves too much: there are also unpleasant adults in flights who we have to ignore, such as those who snore, those who drink too much and become annoying and so on.

Breastfeeding is great during takeoff and landing to relief the pressure. It will also make her sleep faster in a different environment.

As for safety: when the "seatbelts" light is on, she will have to wear that special seatbelt for babies. Yes, it is safe for regular bumps. Let's be honest: if there were to be a crash (may God forbid), even regular seatbelts wouldn't help anyone. Besides, you will not be allowed to use a regular seatbelt on your baby, even if you buy her a seat, because it would apply too much pressure around her waist, which is more detrimental than the baby one, which seems unsafe (but it is not).

Good luck and enjoy your trip.

Daniele

Daniele, That's a brilliant idea!! All the people who snore too loud or drink too much and the babes can share a section on the plane...

Just kidding ;-)

skatterfly:

1) I have never heard of the Baby B'Air Vest, it sounds like a new deviation from the makers of the Baby Bjorn? I used my BB all the time, on the flight over it was especially helpful for my baby daughter (but she was much younger than 15 months). I would think a 15 month old is not going to want to stay that constricted/contained for that long of a flight so I would vote against that. Since you are traveling with your husband, your little one can trade laps and go between the 2 of you.

2) No sense spending the $ to buy her a ticket when you don't have to yet! Might as well milk the freebie ticket as long as you can! I was broken-hearted that I had to start paying for my little one when she turned 2! Presuming Premium Economy is the uppermost rows of Economy, I would think you are getting more leg room, etc. You can request bulkhead row, as long as it is not an exit row. What's been nice for me as a United Premier traveler, is that I get the bulkhead with her and if it is 3-across seating, the 3rd seat is left empty so we have an "extra" seat. Hopefully, there won't be too many in your row so that might allow for your toddler to amble over into the adjacent seat.

3) I, too, nursed until my little one was 12 months old. She also used the pacifier at night and I brought that along on flights and she would suck that during take-off so her ears wouldn't pop. I wouldnn't recommend nursing while taking off, there are too many distracting noises and jolts, she won't pay too much attention. If you have a suck toy, or even the sippy cup with milk or something, had that to her as the plane is taking off. The swallowing/drinking motion will help her ears.

4) The baby bassinette available on international flights is limited to a smaller baby. My little one used it as a 4 & 5 month old, then again as a 9-12 month old. Past 12 months and in the walking stage is not recommended. Toddlers like to move around, squirm, sit up, try to get out of there, etc. We were told that they are used for babies only.

5) You don't need a carseat in an airplane. If you decide to purchase her a seat, you just seat-belt her in like everyone else. I put the blankets and pillows around my little one to cushion her/fill up the seat area.

Bottom line: you don't need to buy a seat yet. Save yourself the $400-$600 on a ticket and use it the next time you go when she is 24 months old!

not qualified tomake comment. the only time my children have flown is with mummy and i didn't get to go with them. I wouldn't call a trip to europe as being veyr long if you're from the US continent. try travelling from Australia or NZ to europe. so my comments come from observing the heaps of toddlers i saw going to and from europe. I never heard one baby cry to the point of being annoying. all the parents i asked said that having the child with them wasn't too much a of a problem

re: Q3, i ahve never come across anoyone who said the ear popping thing was a problem. our children certainly ahve never had a problem but sucking is a good idea (the baby, not you).

my boy is autistic and if my wife can travel with him then i'm sure most others ahve a good chance at surviving a trip and again, as observed they seem to do ok.

regarding question 2...you got two perspectives 1) is the extra cost for a separate seat really too much considering how much your child is worth? 2) is the temporary inconvenience worth whinging about when even the most whingiest spoilt people will get over it eventually anyway.
i don't know which is wisest but i do know you'll get over the extra cost as well. one day you won't even know you spent it. but it seems to me you'll remember for a lot longer stuffing around with the car seat. I wouldn't take it.

i think you've shown good character in buying the premium ticket. i'm sure you'll make good decisions.

Hi -- good thread.

Check with your airline, then perhaps repost with more specifics? For example, United prohibits the use of seatbelt-extenders, which are common on EU carriers.

Best advice I got was from friends in London (he's HK Chinese, she's from Seoul). Babies are just another carry-on. The most important carry-on in the world! They will do baby things, and the best you can hope for is keep them to their schedule & have lots of amusing diversion tactics. They've taken their little one long-haul 3-4 times now . . .

And, yes, I know we all hate shrill ankle-biters ,) but do spare a thought for people whose parents/family live half a world away, & perhaps themselves are unable to fly. To them, that shrill package of beastliness is *the most priceless thing* (& lets face it, most kids bounce back from travel better than us) . . . .

hi skatterfly! I just saw this post... I used the Baby B'Air vest with both of my sons. I think it was good when my son was under 1 and didn't move around much. After 1, we always bought him a seat because I wanted him in a car seat. We actually bought the Sit N Stroll, which is a car seat which has wheels to pop out, turning it into a stroller. It's really not great as either a car seat or a stroller, but it does help eliminate one of the numerous items babies requier when travelling. However, the Sit N Stroll would not be good in London -- it wouldn't last a block if you hit cobblestones.

Regarding the Vest, I think it's a decent enough invention, because at least she is attached to the seat belt during take-off/landing and during turbulance. It's not going to be as safe as a car seat, but much better than trying to just hold her. It never seemed to bother either of my sons to wear it -- it's relatively soft & not too bulky.
And it should be easy enough to nurse with it on her. That is, as easy as it can be on a plane, which is not easy compared to being home in the glider!

Oh, and the pressure won't be super bad for her, unless she has a cold or ear infection. And even a sippy cup helps relieve the pressure, if she will keep sipping.

Good luck with the flight. My first child always did well on flights -- even on the flight to London when he was 10 months. He loved playing with the seat belt. My second son is a dream child, except in cars or planes. If your daughter does well in the car, she'll probably be fine on the plane. Just bring lots of distractions.

You're flying with a toddler, people with young children are never popular on flights. If you're going to start nursing her and making a fuss as if you're the only parent of flying with a toddler in the world you're going to anger people.

People don't want to see nursing, especially a toddler, and not if they've paid to upgrade to a premium cabin. Take her to the toilet and do it in private. I'd certainly complain if you did that in front of me, it's natural, but so are lots of things! It's nor pleasant, and is off putting.

kat,

If you're unsure, and the seat is available, why not buy 1 extra seat in economy (assuming that Virgin won't rebook your premium tix to 3 econ tix). That way you can switch off with your parents and get the best situation for you and your daughter. It certainly gives you more options. Good luck to you no matter what you decide.

Maureen