FedUp

Wondering if anyone has ever fought back physically against the pickpockets in Italy or France or the like? Reading all the posts about the constant harassment tourists undergo does not make me sympathetic towards this group of individuals who assume none of us work hard for those dollars we bring to Europe. Any stories of anyone really letting the pickpockets have it? I swear I feel like keeping my Swiss Army knife at the ready or breaking some kids arm while it's digging in my bag. Not PC, but this is ridiculous that Americans don't pressure foreign governments to police tourist areas better. And to have the natives stand by and accept this as the status quo reflects truly on their character. Any opinions?

Sjoerd

Assuming you are not a troll I will try to give an answer. <BR>You don't NEED to have your pockets picked. Some simple precautionary measures suffice to make it impossible for pickpockets to do their job. Only lazy, ignorant and/or stupid people have their pockets picked. It is not a "constant harassment". <BR>And the risk is as big in New York City as in Rome, so why isn't the NYC police doing anything against it? And why do American "natives" accept this "status quo"? <BR>You have probably never been to Europe, and if you have, please don't come again. <BR>

Jim Rosenberg

Sjoerd, you don't think you're coming down just a LITTLE hard on our poster here, do you? I agree that being naive is "asking for it" and a little bit of street smartness goes a long way toward preventing -- all but eliminating -- this type of crime. That said, I think that to say ONLY lazy, stupid or ignorant people become victims may be going a bit far. There are stories on this board about people "fighting back", but many cases, pickpocketing is more a crime of stealth than an actual confrontation with someone. There is pickpocketing and then there is mugging. Take precautions, be alert and if you spot someone sizing you up, your demeanor can send a big message. After hearing about a rather infamous area at the Brussels Midi station from a local where thefts are rampant, I had the opportunity to "case" a particular young gentleman who was trying his his best to engage me in a situation that was quite obviously a set-up. Since the few valuables I had were secured like Fort Knox anyway, I played the situation out for nearly 10 minutes, just to gain some insight (business must have been slow for him that day). It was obvious to me that he had accomplices outside the station and he needed to get me to a particular location to complete the job. Keep in mind that pickpockets and thieves are not necessarily just a bunch of mindless thugs. Some of them have more creative, interesting techniques to engage you. Many travelers relish the opportunity to interact with "the locals" and that affinity is a characteristic that will sometimes be incorporated into the set-up. It's not all just "smash & dash". Forewarned is forearmed, but as for carrying a weapon, FedUp? Horrible idea. Forget about it. If you don't want someone digging in your bag, don't carry a bag. You CAN and SHOULD protect yourself with good-sense precautions. That said, the odds are such that even most lazy, stupid and ignorant people probably get through their trip without being robbed. Sjoerd is right: it is not a "constant harrassment". On the flip side of that, complacency about it will greatly increase your risk.

Bob Brown

Good Afternoon or Morning as the case may be. Having been the target of a pick pocket in Paris, I would can assure Mr. Fed Up that if his pocket is picked sucessfully, he probably will not know it until well after the fact. <BR>I never felt a thing other than the fact that the fellow bumped into me as I entered the car while he was pretending to read the route map posted above the door. <BR> <BR>I learned that the guy had fingered my pocket only when another passenger on the Metro train asked me, in English, if everything was still in my pockets. I felt, and nothing was gone. <BR> <BR>Now this does not rule out some of the clumsy attempts to rip or cut a pack off of you and run. Nor does it exclude some of the vandalizing behavior that you encounter from time to time on the Paris Metro. <BR> <BR>As for toting a concealed weapon, I don't suggest it. The European cops don't take lightly to smuggled firearms. <BR>You could easily wind up in more trouble because of the weapon than the thief, if you pulled out a pistol and tried to use it. As for a knife, those guys probably have bigger ones and know how to use them. <BR> <BR>I also doubt very much if you could get a pistol through airport security. <BR>I have been stopped because I had keys and coins in my pocket. <BR> <BR>There are ways to conceal your passport, airline ticket, and credit cards. <BR> <BR>In my case in Paris, even if the thief had been successful in lifting my billfold, he would have gotten an old piece of leather, $7.00 US, and my voter registration card. <BR> <BR>I do not know if it was the skinny feel of my billfold or the fact that it was in a zippered pocket that foiled him. <BR>Perhaps some of both. I have never had an expert tell me if a zippered back pocket was a deterrant or not. One friend of mine who is extremely street smart said that the zipper would not hold up a real expert. It might if the would be thief picked the wrong side of the pocket to look for the zipper. But I would not count on it. And I am not going to stuff a wallet full of paper and parade about the Paris Metro system trying to attract a thief in order to find out. <BR> <BR> <BR>

FedUp

I have made over 35 trips to Ireland and England, with only one trip to the continent back in the 70s, and have traveled extensively in the U.S. and Canada, plus one trip to Hong Kong.I have never been pickpocketed during any of those travels. I have every intention of being a "secured" traveler on my first trip back to Italy and France in over 25 years, but I am becoming overwhelmed by all the tales on this forum of thieves feeling about inside even zippered and velcroed interior pockets, slashing bags with knives (although nothing of monetary value inside) or, as in Paris, of slicing a woman's neck while trying to steal her neck-hanging money belt. Taking the money belt precautions religiously, I still find it hard to resolve myself that I am in danger of losing my little miscellaneous travel items or travel journal in a front hanging Eagle Creek Wanderer bag to the indiscrimate thieves. Additionally, the tale of the travelers' car being broken into four times in France was another concern for this solo traveler. <BR> <BR>I do wish to travel again to Europe. I look forward to and want to be open to the experience but to travel as an aware and prepared American. However, if this all becomes so accepted as the status quo, I'm concerned that it will morph into even more violent scenarios as time goes on. Here, it appears that the *majority* of violent acts are not between strangers, but those who already know each other. Are the rates of petty thievery the same here as in Italy? What accounts for the difference, if any? In every instance I have been privy to, if a tourist here in San Francisco is robbed and a local is nearby, there is none of this turning away or ignoring the poor individual. I've only seen concerned San Franciscans chasing down thieves, assisting the travelers in locating police, etc. Why, at least from the postings and from the guidebooks, does it seem that the Italians themselves accept that this is acceptable for tourists to endure? I just don't understand.

FedUp

Oh, and by the way, I am a woman who is feeling this urge to lash back. Perhaps it's a reaction to having to always be super vigilant on a daily basis for my personal safety. Being aware of my surroundings at all times, with the possibility of being kidnapped and raped while walking to my car in a parking lot, is one thing--now traveling I have to worry about my small insignificant belongings being pilfered? It just seems one indignity after another. Sigh!

BTilke

Sjoerd's response was WAY out of line!!! At the Gare du Midi in Brussels, more than 30 people have their pockets picked EVERY DAY. Similar problems at the Marolles market (which is patronized by locals far more than tourists). Are they all stupid, lazy, ignorant?? The police certainly don't think so. There are a lot of slick pros out there. I've had my wallet stolen at the Gare du Midi in less than 5 seconds and Sjoerd, for your information, I am neither stupid nor ignorant/lazy and it was EXTREMELY rude for you to give such an arrogant and insulting response. <BR>To answer the original question, yes, some people have. A friend of mine fought of a female pickpocket on the #1 metro line in Paris. The pickpocket made her try in the seconds before the metro doors shut; my friend recognized the attempt and shoved her off the metro; the doors shut and the pickpocket was left at the station shouting obscenities at her intended victim. <BR>BTilke (Brussels)

Capo

The only time I came close to being pickpocketed was on my very first trip to Europe, in London. Being that it was my first trip, I was a fairly naive traveler, and was carrying my camera in the back pocket of a small backpack. While getting onto a subway car, I felt a small tug on my backpack, whirled around, and saw a guy who had his hand partially in that pocket. I can't say I "fought back", but I was so angry that I kicked at him, narrowly missing (unfortunately) as he jumped back onto the platform smirking. <BR> <BR>Anyway, I agree with other people here who say that, unlike my situation, in most cases you won't realize you've been pickpocketed until it's too late so there would be no one to fight back against. <BR> <BR>Re: "Not PC, but this is ridiculous that Americans don't pressure foreign governments to police tourist areas better. And to have the natives stand by and accept this as the status quo reflects truly on their character." <BR> <BR>I suspect that if a country, or city, depends heavily on tourism, and tourism were to *significantly* decline due to petty crime, that steps would be taken. As for your second comment, does the fact that Americans accept so much *violent* crime as the status quo reflect, in the same way you're suggesting, on the character of Americans?

FedUp

Capo: Yes, sadly, I do believe that Americans' acceptance of violent crime really reflects on our changing character...evidenced by my own desire to lash back at pickpockets. I never would have thought of such a thing years ago! We Americans have almost become numb to violent crime, and while spending millions of dollars on sports stadiums and player's paychecks, won't spend another dime on teachers' or policemen's salaries. We don't even police ourselves in the violent content of our movies, songs, etc., and I think it is being reflected in the increasing violence of our communities, in general, and in our children, in particualr. However, I don't believe the average citizen "accepts" violent crime or petty thievery per se; in fact, one hears more than enough stories of Americans ready to reek vigilante-style vengeance on criminals, or holding them down in the street until the police arrive, of chasing them down in their cars. While we allow it to some extent with our pocketbooks, we certainly seem to fight back as individuals. I'd be interested to know if Italians do the same. Do they right incensed articles in their newspapers protesting their own street thievery? Just curious.

Jim Rosenberg

Great discussion and BTilke is the one who clued me in to the Midi station situation. (You were RIGHT ON TARGET, as was all of your other advice! Thanks again!). It's true that in many situations, the victim may not discover the crime until some time after it has occurred. As for comparing crime rates, the U.S. gets a big rap for the levels of violent crime, but a good point is made above: much of it is NOT stranger vs. stranger. My impression is that theft, pickpocketing, etc. are far more prevalent in Europe. In discussing this with someone in France with respect to homeowners insurance, there is a reason beyond tradition that those shutters actually close and lock. The fact is that you may not be insurable against many types of theft without them in some areas. Where I live, car alarms are the exception, rather than the rule. Not where I travel in Europe, however. I will leave it to others to argue over my point and I'm sure they will, but based on what I've seen and heard, I believe the statistical risks of being a crime victim for something like pickpocketing or theft are substantially greater in many areas of Europe than they are in the U.S.

Bob Brown

Good point raised by fed up. <BR>We do not pay the people who preserve law and order. <BR> <BR>

Capo

Fed Up, Re: 'However, I don't believe the average [American] citizen "accepts" violent crime or petty thievery per se;' <BR> <BR>Well, perhaps the average Italian or French citizen doesn't accept petty thievery either. I'm wondering why you seemed to make the assumption, in your initial post, that the natives in countries like Italy & France "stand by and accept" petty thievery? <BR> <BR>Good comments about violence in America. IMO, we're a country that's always had a bit of a love affair with violence. <BR> <BR>Back to Europe... I'm very sad that you're feeling overwhelmed by the stories on this forum about pickpocketing and other types of thievery and hope this does not dissuade you, in any way, from traveling to wonderful countries like France and Italy. Please bear in mind that countless numbers of people travel to France and Italy every year without incident.

FedUp

I regrettably only assumed that the Italians and French were more accepting of the petty thievery because in no postings (I've read) regarding these thefts have I heard of any instances whereby the locals helped out the individuals being robbed, chased down the little thieves or otherwise intervened, other than, after the fact, reminding the tourist to check his/her pockets. I also have spoken to associates overseas who claim it rarely, if ever, is commented upon in the newspapers or journals, while our crime is a constant source of discussion and debate from Letters to the Editor to conference seminars on the subject by tourism groups or convention bureaus, etc. Criminal acts here tend to launch Americans into activism--Mothers Against Drunk Drivers, all the new legislation promoted by parents against violence. I'd love if Paolo or another Italian would enlighten us on if I am being ignorant and if Italians are up in arms about the petty crime and its increasing violence. I really am open to being educated. But nothing here yet has pointed to a different attitude by natives of some European countries. Please share if you know otherwise. Thanks.

Capo

Well, for what it's worth, let me share a very *positive* experience that my girlfriend & I had when in Rome about a month ago. While punching our subway tickets at the turnstiles at the Piazza Barberini station, we noticed a shifty-looking guy to our left. After we passed through the turnstiles, we were stopped by a policeman who asked to look at my ticket. I was dumbfounded, since I'd punched it and couldn't figure out what I might have done wrong. In the meantime, while we were being detained, this shifty-looking guy passed us and headed down the escalator. The policeman turned, pointed at him, and pulled down at the bottom of his right eye as if to say "bad character...keep an eye out for him." So the reason he stopped us had nothing at all to do with my ticket; it was just a pretext to detain us. He was merely going out of his way to warn us about this guy...and that REALLY impressed us as an "above-and-beyond-the-call-of-duty" kind of act. <BR> <BR>We also talked with a 20-ish Roman woman on a train from Rome to Arezzo. She told us that she'd been pickpocketed in Rome, and I didn't get any sense that she was any less angry about it than a tourist would be. <BR> <BR>Romans seem to be on their guard too. More than once, when I'd accidentally brush up against someone on a crowded subway car, they'd quickly turn around and look at me. <BR> <BR>I've been to Europe ten times. In all those trips, aside from the aborted attempt at stealing my camera (which I noted above), the only thing I've had happen was our rental car being broken into in France. Not in Paris, or another big city, but in a car park in a small town in Provence. Fortunately, our luggage was in our hotel room and we'd taken everything else with us, so the would-be thieves came away empty-handed.

kam

My husband's cousin has just retired from the government of Tuscany and had her offices in Florence. When we were there last she told us the city of Florence was terribly concerned about the petty thievery on the streets and was trying to take action to combat it.Even some private citizens made homemade signs warning tourists to Beward of Gypsies in certain areas--don't know quite how I feel about that one. The pickpockets are very clever, however, and the Italian government is always tied up in red tape at best. And, I believe if you read some of the posts here about wonderful times in Naples, that will confirm how that city worked to improve the situation for tourists. Just last weekend, I had to remind a young tourist not to let her shoulder bag dangle out into the street--from the California cable car in SF! Tourists are just not as aware of safety issues as they would be in their own home towns and so become an easy target.

Gerry

I have lived in the USA all my life (50+) years is San Francisco Metropolitan area. Have traveled extensively in US, Canada, Mexico, Middle East, Africa and Europe. As a private citizen, I had never been a victim of any crime except having my car broken into 3 times. <BR>Just returned from Italy. On my first day there I had my wallet stolen on the Metro. Never even noticed it missing until after I arrived at the Vatican. Am I a"lazy,ignorant or stupid person?" I was wearing dark colored cloathing(black shoes and an Italian made and purchased sweater and shirt). My wallet contining some money ($80)only was in my front pocket against my skin covered by my translator book. The pocked was covered in turn by a black non-descript shoulder bag. (Note: you cannot hold onto Metro-car handrails and cover your pocket at the same time. No camera, maps etc. visable. I have 20+years experience as a law enforcement officer in San Francisco. I am trained and experienced in observation , crook-spotting and personal security. I noticed nothing unusual. Just what I took to be normal bumping on a crowded car. <BR>I am programmed to fight back and will do so because of that programing even if they stick a gun in my face. That's what we cops do. These guys are very well trained professionals. They work in teams. We have nothing even remotely simular in SF or anywhere else in the US that I have seen. You will probably never even notice the pickpocketing. <BR>Advice: <BR>Don't carry anything in your pockets that you plan to still have at your destination. Use hotel safe and money belt. <BR>I don't think it makes much difference what you are wearing etc. I lived in Rome years ago for 1 year. I could spot an American or other tourist 100 yards away. You can tell by their manner and how they walk. And you'll be speaking English or other language or Italian with a non-Roman accent(dialect). <BR> <BR>Please see my next post for continueation and comments. <BR> <BR>Gerry

Hans H

As for letting the pickpocket have it: don't do it. I don't know for the rest of Europe for sure, but if you put a Swiss Army knife into the arm of a pickpocket in Germany, you're into trouble with the law. If you intentionally break the arm of a child, even if it was in you pocket, you're also in trouble. <BR> <BR>If your reaction isn't proportional to the threat you're facing, you're breaking the law. Intentionally causing physical harm to a petty thief, especially a child or using a knife, is way out of proportion. (Not to speak about guns. If you aren't licensed, you get into more trouble for carrying it than a pickpocket, let alone pulling and threatening someone with it. And personally I would agree with the police securing a person with a gun first and going for the thief second.) <BR> <BR>Don't forget that you might not even be able to prove that the attacked person was a pickpocket (and actually you might even be wrong). If the thief hasn't got a previous conviction, how exactly do you want to prove that he was trying to rob you?

Gerry

Continued: <BR> <BR>Note to Capo: If there was a cop standing right next to me he probably wouldn't have seen it happen either. <BR> <BR>On our next trip on the Metro was 2 days later from Barberini station(Capo). Within seconds of boarding my wife started screeming at and fighting with a gypsy boy who had his hand in her zippered handbag. Just then I felt a hand in my pocket, the one that no longer contained a wallet but still had the translator and my hotel key(mistake!--put you hotel key in your money belt too). I grabbed an arm and found myself holding onto a gypsy girl of abour 12 yrs old. Almost broke her arm, I was so mad. While holding her, I yelled at the boy in Italian. When, he left my wife alone, I released the girl. At home, I would have taken her into custody. But I don't know Italian law and did not want to spend my vacation fighting a kidnapping charge from an Italian jail. They immediately vanished. <BR>Everyone in this crowded car acted as though nothing happened except one well-dressed Italian woman who glared at me and told me that I could get in big trouble for "abusing" children!!!! I found this attitude very disconcerting. I absolutely agree with FedUp that this attitude is not shared by citizens in San Francisco or any other US/Canadian destinations that I know of. <BR>A few days later we were strogly warned by hotel staff in Florence to be very careful of pickpockets and gypsys. I asked him since the government was aware of the problem, why couldn't they do anything to stop it. His reply: "There is absolutely nothing we can do. When we try, we are labled Facist ans Racist." Acceptable answer? <BR>Unfortunately, I didn't get to ask any Italian policemen about thier take on the problem. <BR>Other comments: <BR>Police can do very little without citizen support. <BR>We didn't report either of these incidents. I'll bet these things are much more prevelent than police statistics show. Why bother to report and interupt your vacation for another bad experience? <BR>Tourists are singled out by crooks for targeting everywhere. They are fair game. The reason is that the perpetrator cannot be prosecuted without a witness. How many tourists are willing to go back to Italy,Spain,San Francisco or anywhere at their own expense(the prosecutors don't have the money to pay it) just to testify in court and re-live a bad experience? So the charges get dropped and they go free to freely pursue thier "prossesion". <BR>It you do ride the subway, don't get on in the middle(by the stairs). All the tourists crowd onto the middle of the train. The crooks know this and they wait there for them. Walk to the ends of the train where its less crowded and safer. <BR>Thanks For Listening. <BR> <BR>Happy Travels, <BR> <BR>Gerry

Capo

Gerry, sorry to hear about your loss. <BR> <BR>I used to think I was safe by doing what you did, putting my wallet in my front pocket. But then I read too many stories, like yours, where guys had wallets lifted from that pocket. So, I considered myself duly warned and, since reading those stories years ago, have never carried *anything* I can't afford to lose in *any* of my pockets. <BR> <BR>"Ignorant" may seem like a pejorative word -- and I think most people conventionally think of it that way -- but it really means just "uninformed" or "unaware". And I'd admit that's exactly what *I* was prior to reading the stories I mentioned; I was uninformed and unaware; I was ignorant. <BR> <BR>Now, if someone *has* been informed and *has* made aware, and yet *still* chooses to, say, keep a wallet in their front pocket, or keep their wallet in a fanny pack, then I think there may be another word for that... :~)

Capo

Gerry, Re: "Note to Capo: If there was a cop standing right next to me he probably wouldn't have seen it happen either." <BR> <BR>If you were stealthily pickpocketed (is that redundant?) then I'm sure you're right, a cop wouldn't have seen either. <BR>I just mentioned my story to point out that a cop in Rome went out of his way (IMO anyway) to help and warn us about someone he knew, or suspected, was a bad character. (We waited until we saw him board a car, and then got on another car.)