Gerry

Hans: <BR> <BR>Please don't take offense. I agree with you completely. These crimes are a local problem to be addressed locally. Not by the EU or travelers or anyone other than the people that life there. That's my whole point. Smart visitors should try to become aware of the issues they may face. And, hopefully someone might point it out to them. Like the Roman cop. Like the German who says don't cross agaist the red light. In Italy, you just walk into the traffic and drivers drive around you. It seems no one pays any atention to traffic lights. Don't try this the next day when you are in Switzerland or Germany! You might get killed. You should thank the locals for shouting at you. Even if it may have seemed rude to you, they may have just saved your life. This is the type of advice tourists need. <BR>I have travelled in Germany, Switzerland and Austria and never once gave a thought to wearing a money belt. It does not seem to be a problem there. But each local has its own dangers and requires its own precautions(even Germany). Hans, if you go to Italy wear your money belt. Take my advice and don't be stubborn or think I'm rude. As I've said, I lived in Rome for a year some 30 years ago. There was no problem then. Times have changed! Be warned! Spain looks like is has much more serious problems. And remember that these guys can travel more freely now that your borders are comming down. <BR>And, of course, I would not break a little gypsy girl's arm. Its just an expression of how you feel after having your person violated. She wasn't even the guilty party. It was her mother who I'm sure was lurking nearby and giving the orders, but I did not see her. That's who we would punish under American law. The parent is responsible. <BR> <BR>Just a cop story: <BR> <BR>DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME AND CERTAINLY NOT WHILE ON VACATION: <BR> <BR>Some time back I had to order a prisoner trasported to the hospital for treatment.(Broken nose, broken ribs etc.) He said he had been brutally beat up by 2 businessmen in suits for no reason. They just didn't seem to like him. And, he was cying! Turns out he had stuck a gun in these 2 business mens' faces and demanded their money. He didn't get their money. He got something else. <BR>No prosecutor in SF would either want to or dare prosecute those businessmen. <BR>And yes the police did pat them on the back. Do you think this guy went back to robbing businessmen when he got out of prison? Just food for thought. <BR> <BR>Gerry

elvira

Never ever ever ever fight for property. As Sensei says "nobody comes out of a fight clean" - I don't know of anyone who would like getting a broken arm or broken nose to save a camera. <BR> <BR>We (4 women) were accosted by two women (one with a 'baby' strapped to her chest), each trying to dip into our purses and pockets. As we hurried away (making no aggressive moves, as everything was secure), one of them grabbed my friend's arm to stop her; the other piece of crap was glued to her back, preventing her from escaping. That did it. I grabbed the scum and threw her off, got in her face and screamed threats until she and her lowlife pal backed off. Later we saw them working the line waiting to see the Last Supper, but they gave us a real wide berth. <BR> <BR>Unless you're prepared to do serious physical damage to someone, don't go into a fight. Walk or run away.

Shanna

Does anyone else remember, rather many years ago, when Japan was having a terrible problem with pickpockets and purse-snatching, so bad it was affecting the tourist industry. My vague recollection was passage of a law making it a capital offence and once the first person was hanged, so to speak, the crime rate dropped considerably. Now it may very well be that this was an "urban legend" but it was broadcast as "news" over the radio. There will be always be crime at frontiers - and frontier can be partially defined as a place where cultures collide. As a single woman, I can appreciate FedUp's wearied sense of always being on guard, but I've traveled frequently and far without excessive diligence and never been bothered, except for the two revolutionaries in Paris who tried to be intimidating but stole nothing. Sometimes it's a good thing to stay away from the Forum for a while or just stop reading these posts; they can create a false picture.

Louis

Dear FedUp: <BR> <BR>You asked if anyone has ever fought back against pickpockets. Well, I have, although I was not being pickpocketed as much as I was in rush to get some friends to the d'Orsay and let my guard down. <BR> <BR>It happened two years ago at La Place St. Michel in Paris at an ATM machine. I was so concerned about getting on with what we were doing that I entered my debit card pin number incorrectly. Consequently I caused a tie-up at the machine and soon found myself being helped by a resident of that city, who pulled off a scam in which I let myself get caught. <BR> <BR>To make a very long story short, he pocketed my debit card and I thought the machine had kept it. So I went around the corner and into the bank to retrive the card. Some ten minutes later when I came out I found the "mec" who had tried to "help" me and his companion at the machine. Apparently they thought I had left the area. I realized immediately what had happened and confronted the guy and asked to see the card he was using. He refused and held the card behind his back. That was when I jumped on him and wrestled the card away. As soon as I saw it was my card I got angrier but my wife started pummeling the man with my hat! (My hat.) <BR> <BR>He tried to be brave for a few seconds but his companion had already taken off and my friend, who is bigger than I, was standing next to me. So the scam "artist" took off and I chased him until he went into the Metro. <BR> <BR>Afterwards, when I had calmed down, my friend told me that it was a very stupid thing for me to do. The guy could have had a knife and I, been hurt real bad. My friend was right. I realized I shouldn't have taken on the guy. My luck that day went beyond just getting my card back. <BR> <BR>I don't think I'll do that again -- I was already 53 at the time. Now I'm just very carefull and don't let myself get rushed and forget what I'm doing at the moment. <BR>

FedUp

First, Michelle and others, let me say this is not a troll! I was/am dead serious with the question and appreciate the lively exchange that is resulting. <BR> <BR>Also, what I said initially was that "I feel like keeping my Swiss Army knife at the ready or breaking some kids arm." "Feel" being the operative word. I really don't know what I will do, but the frustration of having to waste so much of my precious travel time worrying about pickpockets and their complete disregard for me and my hard-earned belongings is what becomes overwhelming. <BR> <BR>And, Michelle, I live in one of the most popular and beautiful tourist destinations on earth--San Francisco. While, as a woman, I am vigilant when traveling alone in isolated areas of the city or late at night, I do not EXPECT nor is it LIKELY that anything bad will happen to me. I said "Being aware of my surroundings at all times, with the possibility of being kidnapped and raped." Yes, it is a possibility...just as it is possible my house will catch fire (that's what insurance is for) or I will trip on the sidewalk. As Gerry said, these occurrences are so rare here, that we're talking about an entirely different thing. I would laugh at the thought of having to wear a money belt here. Neither I nor my fellow citizens take the street crime or the violent crime lying down though, and as Gerry said, I think that's the crux of the matter. We don't accept it happening to us or anyone else for that matter. If I am not actively working to change the system, someone else will be. <BR> <BR>Also, Michelle, I did not mean to imply that Europeans can't do without American dollars...and didn't say that in fact. What I inferred, however, is that tourism dollars (no matter from which country) account for millions of dollars in a country's economy (such as Italy or England). You only have to read the BBC reports of what the U.K. economy has suffered due to travel cancellations because of foot-and-mouth disease to understand the impact tourist dollars have. To pretend that Rome's economy wouldn't be hurt if tourists boycotted it is naive (not that something like that would be done, in all likelihood). However, governments, tourism bureaus, legislators negotiate these kinds of things all the time. In the U.S., travel organizations meet all the time to discuss safety issues, etc., and towns/cities change legislation in order to win back travelers to assist their citizens in having a better livelihood. Just as Rome was spiffed up for the Jubilee Year, neighborhoods or whole cities are revamped in order to win tourism dollars. Anyway . . . . <BR> <BR>I really appreciate the opinions and facts people are expressing; the interchange is what's important with this difficult issue. <BR> <BR>And, Michelle, what I would still say to you is...what is YOUR personal opinion on pickpocketing? How has it impacted you, if ever? What do you feel can be done about it? And why would we or you consider it simply the status quo and not work to change the situtation? Thanks in advance for your thoughtful consideration of those questions.

Sjoerd

Some people mix up pickpocketing (stealing without any violence) and mugging. We are talking about pickpocketing in this thread, right? <BR>I live in Amsterdam and never use a money-belt. None of my friends do. My 70-year old mother goes shopping with her purse in her handbag. But she does put her handbag tightly against her body with her hand on it. She has never been pickpocketed. <BR>Don't be paranoid, just hold your hand on your money, leave real valuables in your hotel safe, and you will be fine! Enjoy your holidays in safe Europe!

Michelle

Well Fed-Up you asked so here goes. My personal opinion of pickpockets is that they are pretty scummy characters. It's impacted me in that I am more aware of my surroundings, but not to the extent that it stops my enjoyment of life or makes me less polite to strangers. Yes, I have been a victim of crime and fought back (Copenhagen). I hung onto my bag and people (European people) ran to help me and chased the would-be thief, belying your words "Explain why your countrymen and women stood by while tourists fight off the thieves." I would also say that I know Europeans who have been mugged in New York, San Diego and Chicago, but that doesn't stop me going to these cities nor has it impacted my positive opinion of Americans. Also, even if it were possible, I wouldn't expect the British government to "pressure" the Government of the United States in order to make New York etc safer for me. You said (first message) "Not PC, but this is ridiculous that Americans don't pressure foreign governments to police tourist areas better." Pressure????? What right has any foreign nation to pressure my country? None. Sorry Fed-Up, we may be smaller and less powerful countries but America does not have the right to pressure us. Negotiation/discussion - yes, pressure - no. <BR> <BR>You also said "And to have the natives stand by and accept this as the status quo reflects truly on their character." Now to me that's a pretty big put-down of Europeans - and I'm not taking you out of context here. We don't accept it, as other Europeans have already stated. <BR> <BR>I said you were insulting. OK I'll apologise for that. Maybe it's a different use of languageand/or a different way of looking at life. But I do not agree that Europeans would stand by and give no assistant to someone who had been robbed. I have seen an incident on the London tube where a bag thief was tripped and caught by other commuters. I therefore disagree with the low opinion of Europeans you seem to have. <BR> <BR>Lastly, yes there is crime in Europe, but I think you have an exaggerated view of it. I travel constantly (work and leisure) and have done so for 25 years, that's a lot of travelling. In all that time I have suffered the one incident mentioned above. Last year I was in Rome and Southern Italy for 6 weeks and didn't even see any incidents let alone be a victim. Yes, there were beggar types around, but I avoided them. I don't know what the crime statistics are but if you're reasonably alert (not to the extent of spoiling your holiday), you'll probably be OK. I'm off to Italy in 3 weeks, to be honest I haven't given a thought to pickpocketing. I hope you enjoy your stay in Europe.

A Finn

Well said Michelle! As a fellow European I agree with you and must say that I was a bit amazed with the flaming responses the first European (Sjoerd) in this thread got, when responding to false accusations and (yet again) patronizing attitude by an American. It is very easy to see why an European might (and will) over-react to such opinions. The most annoying thing that caught my eye was the fact that FedUp thinks that Americans should PRESSURE foreign governments in some way. Hey come on! You are not in control of the whole world. I am not denying that there is a lot of pickpocketing in major tourist cities and attractions, but that does not mean that every European uses or has to use a money belt. I (a Finn) donīt own one and have never used one. Perhaps I have been fortunate, but have never encountered any troubles even in large cities.

FedUp

I really appreciated your post, Michelle. The whole point of my original one was that all I was hearing on this forum were the horror stories about constant pickpocketing and no locals coming to the tourist's aid. Your personal experience provided a different perspective, and a welcome one. Thanks. <BR> <BR>And perhaps everyone is misunderstanding my use of the term "pressure." When I refer to "pressuring foreign governments," I am not referring to strong arm tactics or one "powerful" nation running roughshod over a less "powerful" nation [others term, not mine]. I am speaking of the everyday negotiations (direct and indirect) between tourism agencies, legislators, the public, etc., that go on all the time. <BR> <BR>For example, the current energy crisis in California is really causing concern to our city and state officials with regards to our tourism industry, as tourist dollars account for over $1 billion (!!) of San Francisco's economy!! Therefore, our local officials and tourism respresentatives are feeling a covert pressure to deal with this crisis. Tourists have expressed their fears of rolling electrical blackouts causing them to have a "camping out" kind of experience in SF. That's the kind of pressure I'm talking about. <BR> <BR>And regarding the "natives standing by"...as I said before, in very few of the posts on THIS forum regarding pickpockets is it ever mentioned that any other person came to the aid of the travelers. I was referring to the posts I've read here. That's why I asked to be educated about the subject. And, thankfully, some people did provide the good Samaritan stores, which were encouraging. There were not a lot of them, regrettably. <BR> <BR>I still say, however, [and will stand by this] that if an American, European, Asian, whoever--any "native"--stands by while someone in their sight is being robbed, beaten, etc., that that action through inaction is an indirect sign of acceptance of that as the status quo and that it reflects somehow on their character. I believe it of myself and hold others to that standard as well. If anyone finds that a "put-down," well, I'm sorry I don't understand. I call it expecting behavior exhibiting concern for your fellow human being. <BR> <BR>Again, thank you, Michelle, for your encouraging words about visiting overseas safely. I do look forward to my own trip in the near future and hope you and others have enjoyable and safe travels.

Paul

Fighting back Against Pickpockets <BR> <BR>I have one message to all of the people who have come to any european city and been pickpoted abused or whatever. <BR>The answer is as we found out long ago in england is to kick shit out of anyone who tries it on. <BR>Unfortunately most European countries appart from the UK hates tourists and foreigners.So forget all of the lovely tourist attractions just be on your guard.Why do you think we have had so many wars between the UK and European nations? Answer they hate us we hate them. <BR>So if indoubt just kick the shit out of any low life scum because they cant fight anyway. <BR>As an aside the USA is not full of angels either I have had problems in New York.L.A. San Franscisco,and Florida and ive had to fight there too. <BR>I am not naturally agressive but the secret is take no shit from anyone and be on your guard.

Capo

Gerry, thanks for your response above; I appreciate it. <BR> <BR>FedUp, Re: 'I still say, however, [and will stand by this] that if an American, European, Asian, whoever--any "native"--stands by while someone in their sight is being robbed, beaten, etc., that that action through inaction is an indirect sign of acceptance of that as the status quo and that it reflects somehow on their character." <BR> <BR>On the character of the <I>individual</I> perhaps. (Out of curiousity, how certain are you that <I>you</I> would go to the assistance of someone being beaten?) <BR> <BR>However, on the "character" of all the people in the country -- which is what you <I>seemed</I> to be implying in your original post -- no.

Kathy

Hi, <BR>I concur with Bob Brown. Most criminals preying on tourists in Europe are so rapid & so adept at their "craft", that the victims do not realize they've been victimized until after the crime has occurred. A friend of mine was walking down a street in Rome when a guy on a motorcycle came by with a knife & cut her purse strap right off her shoulder! The joke was on him, however, as my friend had put a small amount of cash in her front pants pocket, the rest of her valuables were in her hotel safe & her purse contained only make-up and a hankie. Likewise in Florence, pickpockets would usually follow their "marks" or intended victims for a block or so, prior to skillfully "accidentally" & apologetically bumping into them. Alas, the back pocket or backpack had been "picked", they would later discover. I think this is part of why the victims don't fight back & why foreign police don't appear to do a lot. Capo had a favorable experience with an official who obviously knew his stuff & was more than happy to assist visitors to his country, but I fear gendarmes & polizia would have to be 20 thick on each block of France & Italy to effectively eye every suspicious character & prevent all crime to tourists. I think all the commonsense advice you take in your own country to prevent yourself from being a victim will also prevent you from being one while on any journey. <BR>Kathy

FedUp

Capo: You asked, so...I, with a family member or a friend on different occasions, have actually come to the aid of four (4) separate sets of travelers or citizens once in San Francisco, once in Ireland, once in Florida and once in England. Three cases were attempted or successful muggings where we chased down the muggers or were able to retrieve the belongings; the fourth was a hit-and-run accident in which we chased down the driver, alerting the police to his location. <BR> <BR>Perhaps it is being raised in Montana that instills this don't-let-them-get-away-with-it mentality. I really don't know. But I would feel terribly guilty to sit by and do nothing or just turn the other cheek while someone is in trouble.

Capo

FedUp, good for you! (I'm being serious, not sarcastic.) That's impressive, especially chasing muggers, since one can never be sure whether or not they're armed. I'd feel guilty doing nothing too, and would like to think that I'd take some action, but I think most of us can't really be certain how we'd act, or react, in cases like that until they actually happen. <BR> <BR>I remember when we were reading a lot of stories about pickpocketing and mugging in Barcelona before going last year. There were at least a couple I recall where people <I>did</I> mention that locals helped chase people down, or helped thwart an attempt, so I certainly think there <I>are</I> people who are willing to go out of their way to help. <BR> <BR>Out of curiousity, after reading all of these posts, are you any more (or less) inclined now to visit Italy or France?

linda

Actually, this msg. is to ask for advice on how to protect myself from theivery and pickpockets. From the discussion, I gather that I should use a money belt, but are there any special ways that I should wear the money belt to protect it? Do travelers cheques provide any security? Please provide some tips on how to protect myself from pickpockets and theivery. Thank you.

Capo

Linda, my girlfriend and I do the same thing; we carry cash, a credit card (and an ATM card if we plan on getting more cash that day) in a money "pouch" which is securely attached to a thin, but strong, strap that goes around our waist. The strap is hidden under our shirts, and the "pouch" is tucked into the front of our pants. <BR> <BR>Is it more awkward to get money out this way? Yes. (Do we care? No. :~) Is it uncomfortable? No. Do we feel lot more secure? Yes. Have we ever been pickpocketed? No. <BR> <BR>Because of this, we don't feel the need to carry traveler's checks. <BR> <BR>Now, this is probably not going to help all that much, or at all, if you're actually mugged, especially if the assailant has a weapon. But I think the vast majority of European street crime is non-violent petty crime like pickpocketing.

Rex

Just came back from Rome where I had my first experience in twenty trips to Europe, getting hit by a pickpocket. <BR> <BR>And while I think that Sjoerd is a great contributor to this board, I don't think that I was lazy, ignorant or stupid. I simply let mt guard down - - for maybe one, two or three seconds. For what it's worth, Sjoerd, I know how it feels to make a word choice that sounds harsh, when it wasn't exactly what you meant. <BR> <BR>As fot the pickpocketing - - if it had not been for some other American teens nearby, I don't think I would have realized that I had been hit - - they were THAT slick. <BR> <BR>It was at the Colosseum. I had just stepped away from the ticket booth. In retrospect I virtually "announced" myself to the pickpocket(s). The tickets (for six) were 60.000 lire, and I handed over a 100.000 bill. The ticket seller asked me "do you have a 10.000 lire note to go with this?", and I pulled out a "paper wallet" (the kind that American Express provides), thumbed through it, and replied - - no, I have nothing but "fifties" (50.000 lire notes - - there were five of them in there). I stuck the "wallet" back in my (front) pocket, and stepped away to show my family the ticket. They (my family) virtually encircled me - - then I took a few steps forward towards the turnstile. <BR> <BR>Right then, an American teen said "Mister" - - I think you just got pickpocketed - - or at least they tried. I saw two boys run off that way. <BR> <BR>I felt my pants quickly - - my "real wallet" was still in my hip pocket, my passport (front pocket) was still there, and some loose smaller bills in both front pockets. I actually thought they had not succeeded, but then I realized that the "paper wallet" was gone. <BR> <BR>I was angry and irritated of course. But I was almost equally impressed in a weird way. I had not seen them, and no one in my family had seen them. I didn't feel a thing. <BR> <BR>I'm quite certain the American teens were not part of it. We continued to talk to them as we went onward with our visit in the Colosseum. <BR> <BR>I didn't notify the police. These were (I guess) slick operators, who were no doubt long gone in a minute. And I hadn't personally seen or really even experienced the crime committed against me. <BR> <BR>The only thing I would different in such a situation is to be very, very careful when you have out a "stash" of cash (and of course, this wasn't all THAT much) - - especially in the next 60 seconds. <BR> <BR>Best wishes, <BR> <BR>Rex <BR>

sylvia

Did you know that pickpockets often stand by "Beware of pickpockets" notices. It seems that 99.9% of people when they see such a notive, tap their pocket to check that it's still there. This shows the pickpocket exactly where it is! As other people have said, professional pickpockets are very skilled. Even if you spot the thief, he will have passed your property on. <BR>A friend of my daughter's caught a teenage girl stealing her 'phone in London and carried out a citizen's arrest. She held the girl until an officer arrived.

jill

Twice, a couple of years ago, once in Prague and once in Paris I instinctively reacted loudly and pushed back into the offending pickpocket. <BR>In Prague, it was on a train going to the opera, and we had just got on to go only 2 stops when I felt a tug at my bag (which had a lipstick and a tampon in it - no money). I looked around to see the bag open and another male passenger in front of me indicated I had trodden on his foot. Somehow I pushed back at the offender and yelled quite loudly in English something like 'how dare you' etc. The train stopped at a station and the 2 men shot out the door.They were quite respectably dressed and obviously out for a night doing a few pockets and bags. The other passengers (all locals)were very supportive and looked quite angry.I was quite surprised and shocked at my own rather outraged reaction. <BR>A similar thing happened with some gypsy children in Paris on the Metro when we were trying to cope with a suitcase and carry bag each(yes a bit of a crazy thing to attempt but we did make it) but they got nothing and shot off down the carriage.Several other local passengers on the train were vocally supportive. <BR>Last year on the Paris Metro we were with friends and a 'blind'man fumbled along the carriage and lifted the wallet from a friend's pocket where he had foolishly placed it. I was sitting about a foot away and was well aware of him. He was so quick and good and professional at his craft and my friend didn't realise until too late-he'd gone - thus ruining my friend's weekend in Paris from London. <BR>We also have Roman friends who told us of an incident last year where a local woman had her bag picked on a bus and yelled out loudly to the driver to stop and lock the bus door as she knew who had done it. The culprit evidently finally threw the purse across the bus when she couldn't get off and the driver finally did open the door and she ran off. Maybe we would do that at home in Australia but tourists are very vulnerable in another country. <BR>There is no way I would dream of carrying a weapon - even for defence. I believe the locals are just as concerned and they do get 'done over' too - it's not just tourists. <BR>The message is to keep valuables close to your body and well secured. Mind you I had my husband so paranoid about being robbed in Budapest and was feeling very visible and vulnerable to tourist scams.With me urging him to hurry, he shoved a wad of notes he'd taken out of an ATM machine into a money belt on the inside of his trousers belt and we took off across the street whereupon he suddenly grabbed his lower leg and hopped awkwardly to the pavement. The money had missed the purse inside his trousers and fallen down his leg.We collapsed in hysterical laughter. <BR>Nothing has changed since my first trip to Europe in 1972 when we were regaled with stories of pickpockets. I reckon the current lot are 3rd or 4th generation professionals who are cleverer than any police. <BR> <BR>

Scottster

I am a sophisticated traveller who has been to 40 countries and lived in both Europe and the U.S. I lived in Chicago for 3 years, travelled alone at night often, and never experienced crime. On a THREE day trip to Amsterdam, Holland, I had pickpockets attempt to grab my wallet in the Central Train Station/Red Light district area. I also had to fight off a mugger who physically attacked me. AMSTERDAM IS A DANGEROUS CITY. If you travel there, expect to have someone try to grab your wallet or attack you. The situation is worst in the Central Station/Red light district at night. I WILL NEVER RETURN TO THE NETHERLANDS SINCE THE POLICE AND GOVERNMENT HAVE ALLOWED PUBLIC SAFETY TO DETERIORATE SO BADLY. I tell all my friends and others not to go there. I have also experienced problems with crime in France and Spain. The situation is much worse there than in the U.S. Scandinavia and Germany are still very safe. I am trying to decide whether to go to Spain this summer. Eventually, when no tourists visit Amsterdam and all of the hotels, restaurants, etc., have gone out of business and all the people employed in the tourist industry are out of work, maybe the Dutch government might realize there is a problem. To Sjoerd: Go to the Central station area in Amsterdam at night by yourself and see what happens to you. Write back and let us know what happens.