L84SKY

While I can understand why some people wouldn’t feel comfortable in Germany and for a psychically sensitive person it would be horrible. The brutality in Germany has been fairly recent by historical standards. So, of course there are still people in their eighties in Germany that may have been members of the Nazi party.

Still, I think, it’s important to remember that almost every civilization has had it’s atrocities because people, just like us, with all of our hatreds and prejudices, make civilizations.
SeaUrchin made a salient point when she wrote about the woman from Germany who said, “her whole village knew what was happening but were either afraid to do something or thinking better them than me.”

Don’t we each hope or think that we would be brave enough to stand up to tyrants but when it comes down to the brass tacks? But don't we really only pray that we will never be tested?

Chances are good that we would find out that we’re cowards. If all people were either brave or crazy enough to stand up to evil we wouldn’t have invented a special name for heroes.

Mary_Fran

I admit that I visited Germany only reluctantly at first but then fell in love with its beauty and its people.

As I visited, I could not but see parallels with much that I perceive having happened in my own country over the past six years. From a review of <i>The 'Hitler Myth': Image and Reality in the Third Reich</i>, by Ian Kershaw

&quot;No longer able to separate propaganda from reality and believing their own deceptions, they failed to deal with reality in a rational manner. Another factor in successful propaganda is that somewhere, someone responsible is able to keep fact and myth separated.

&quot;It is unlikely that a similarly charismatic figure could rise up to lead millions like Hitler did, but the idea that we need to follow a strong leader in times of crisis has not disappeared. The Hitler Myth has disappeared, but myths about leadership and social unity persist — and can continue to pose dangers for all involved.&quot;

hetismij

I am not Jewish, I did not live through the war, but I understand the concerns.
We never told my father that my son't girlfriend was Japanese. My father fought in Burma, and could never have understood his grandson having a relationship with a Japanese girl. My aunt, on the other hand, who's husband was killed at Kohima, welcomed her and was hoping to visit her in Tokio, after visiting Kohima. The relationship broke up before that happened.
My sister in law is Jewish. She lost all her family in the war - her parents are the only survivors from their generation in their families, so she has no cousins, no aunts, nothing. She learned German at school. Worked in Germany for a year, spent two years in Israel - and her view is she would rather spend her time in Germany, with the ghosts, than in Israel with the fanatics.
I have a German Daughter in Law. She and most young Germans struggle to understand what happened in Germany, why the things that happened happened, how their grandparents/great grandparents could do such things.
And living in Holland for many years now I have only rarely come across anti-German feeling amongst the Dutch to be honest. Even people I know who worked in the Resistance, who hid Jews, who lost family to the Germans now welcome Germans in to their homes.
The Nazi salute and Heil Hitler, along with the swaztika are banned in Germany, as they are in Holland. I suspect whoever did the heil hitler at the sight of a star of david was British - they (we) seem to find it funny, or at least an element does.
I think you have to give it a try. If you don't feel good there then you know how you feel an dont have to go back. But you may find it a healing experience adn an enriching one. If you don't go you will never know.

kleeblatt

Interesting comments from above.

Living in Switzerland, we also have a view of Germans. Individually, they are wonderful, warm people. As a group, they can become arrogant and self-centered. Each European country has its stereotypes of each other and I'm sure the Swiss aren't always seen in a positive light either.

Just came back from Berlin yesterday. I had a lovely time and encountered only friendly, helpful Germans. Definitely friendlier than the Swiss. Walking around Berlin, memorials for Jewish victims are seen everywhere. It becomes a bit depressive after awhile because one wants to learn from the past but live for the moment and future.

I cannot speak for the Germans but can for the Swiss. We are a bit wary of the Jews as a group because of their flair to make money, their different religious ways and our sense of guilt due to their persecutions. We are also wary of the Islams because of their different religious practices and cultural differences. We are also wary of the many African blacks coming into Switzerland because they look so different and we aren't familiar with their cultures and religious beliefs. We have many people from Sri Lanka living in Switzerland but they are well-liked because they are hard workers, friendly and cause no problems.

Good question from the OP. Walking around Berlin Mitte as a Jew, I would feel very angry towards the Germans because of the reminders of WWII around each corner.

hausfrau

I usually don't get involved in this sort of discussion (at least not on a friendly travel forum), but I am honestly shocked and dismayed by how many people on this thread have said they refuse to visit Germany. Do you refuse to visit France, Austria, Holland, Norway, Italy, Belgium, and Luxembourg? There were Nazi collaborators in all of these countries. Do you refuse to visit Japan? Have you renounced your American citizenship because of our decimation of Native Americans? Is there a country in the world that does not have blood on its hands? Read L84SKY's post again and ask yourself the tough questions.

The best way to overcome the horrors of the past is to engage with the people of the present. (We've learned that lesson before - the ostracism of Germany following WWI was one of the factors that led to WWII.) Today's Germans are, on the whole, vehemently anti-war. German schoolchildren visit concentration camps and spend years learning about the world wars. It is illegal here to deny the Holocaust. Germans are terribly ashamed about their past, but they acknowledge it and are trying to move on. The exhibition at Dachau does a better job than any American history textbook at explaining how Hitler came to power and how the events of the Holocaust unfolded.

One of my best friends in high school was Jewish. She studied German for years and traveled to Berlin right after the fall of the Berlin Wall. It was obviously important to her and her family to process what happened, then move on and embrace the Germany of today.

I actually KNOW a German Jew, married to an English Jew. They live happily in Stuttgart.

It is one thing to acknowledge your feelings and respect the memories of those who perished. To denounce an entire country 60 years later is narrow-minded and only goes to support the inherent failings of human society.

Finally, for those who say the Germans they have encountered are rude and obnoxious (which has nothing to do with the subject of this thread), you must realize that you are falling into that dangerous age-old trap known as the &quot;cultural stereotype.&quot; Don't let one or two bad experiences mar your image of an entire country. That only goes to foster misunderstanding and, in its worst form, hatred.

luveurop

I'm shocked. I had no idea that there were so many people who wouldn't visit Germany.

I had a German exchange student in one of my classes last year. She was the nicest girl you would ever want to meet. Smart as a whip, and always helping other students, and always smiling and well mannered. She was a treasure in my class and I will never forget her.

I've never been to Germany because I'm a Paris addict.

Maybe someday.

Ingo

Well said, hausfrau. Exactly my thoughts. And hi schuler, I agree with you, too! Glad you had a good time in Berlin.

I am VERY surprised and saddened by what I read on this thread. As a German born 1969 on the eastern side of the iron curtain I experienced authoritarism and lack of freedom until the wall came down. I am wondering what to expect on my first trip to the U.S. Will my being German be held against me? Are you uncomfortable with the LOCATION Germany or with the german PEOPLE?

Just wondering. Maybe I have to think twice before going through immigration service in NYC.

sardog10

Hausfrau: Thank-you. I have also read this thread with the same feelings of dismay and disappointment. You are much more eloquent in your expression that I could be but my feelings are the same. How can we ever hope to find peace in this world if we can't be willing to find forgiveness or at least some measure of understanding this many years later? I'm not saying that we deny the events, but let's try to look at the society now as well. How long do they have to &quot;pay&quot; before we forgive them?

logos999

&gt; Will my being German be held against me?
There, you don't need to worry. Most people you meet won't know what or where Germany is. Others have watched the Discovery Channel and know that German equals Nazi. People are not informed, and don't care to get information in general.

All those stereotypes are alive on both sides of the atlantic. .

HeatherH

I was also surprised at all the people refusing to visit Germany. I'm an American living in Germany, and yes, there are several Jewish people living here. I personally know at least a half dozen families living in my small (pop about 20,000) town who are German and Jewish. As for the cutting in line, I believe it's much more acceptable here than other places - it's happened frequently to us, even when we're with German friends - they just laugh it off or cut back...

kleeblatt

Hi Ingo! Always a pleasure to hear from you.

We cannot change the past but we can learn from the past. WWII was about power, fear, propaganda and victims. Hitler called for war and the Germans blindly believed him.

Maybe now some of you Americans can understand why most of Europe did not want Bush to go to war in Iraq. There was just not enough evidence, not enough strategy and not enough hope for a better future in Iraq to justify it.

bellacqui

Thank you hausfrau, ingo, schuler. I am dismayed by the number of people not willing to give modern day Germany the benifit of the doubt. In my nine years of living there, I experienced everything - people who were interested in my American perspective on the events of WW2, neo nazi enclaves which set fire to immigrant housing in M&ouml;lln, the development and coming of age of a new Jewish Voice in Germany. I visited more concentration camps than I care to mention....the concentration camp network did not begin and end with the well known ones, instead it included hundreds of feeder camps. The smaller camps are some of the most moving ones. And many of them are open for public inspection.

Reconciling the events of the Second World War/the Holocaust with current day Germany is no easy feat, but it must be done, in a spirit which allows Germany to be what it has become - a free, self retrospective, respectful nation with horrific past events -- in essence, not so very different than the United States itself, in light of the decimation of native American tribes and that massive scar which was known as slavery.

Why are Jews moving back to Germany? Because it is a place where they can move to which is safe and fostering towards religious beliefs. Sorry to break the stereotypes, but it is true.

I one read a comment by one of the several Jewish media commentators and anchors in Germany who said that the day when a person can saw that they are Jewish and not be met with surprise or any reaction at all will be the day that the Holocaust is really over. He is absolutely right.

For all of the Jewish people who think they should never visit Germany:

Google Avi Pimor. He was the Ambassador to Germany from Israel for many years. Read what he has to say about life and living in Germany. He is one of my absolute heros.

Peace to everyone.

kenav

So many of you don't seem to understand why a Jew would feel funny about ging to Germany in 2007?

Are you kidding?

The Germans wanted to WIPE OUT THE JEWS FROM THE FACE OF THE EARTH! What more do you need to understand?

I do have to say, however, that Germany HAS done many things to acknowledge their past. I absolutely appreciate that. Thye are much more out front about it than Poland.

Been to Auschwitz? People in the neat little homes live acrosss the street from it. How can they open their doors and see the barbed wire killing fields every day? How could they say they didn't know what was going on? The trainloads of people, The smell of burning flesh?

Met a man in Hungary this year. He wasn't Jewish. He told me that there's a saying about Poland:
&quot;Oh no, there's no anti-semitism any longer. But there is a demand for it.&quot;

I'm a Jewish woman. No family (that I know of) was killed in the Holocaust. But 6 million of my larger Jewish Family was systematically obliterated. Deliberately, and with great planning.

schuba

passionate comments from everuone on the topic! annhig, comfyshoes, L84SKY, hausfrau, neoptarick have already said what I wanted to!

Jed

Having lost family members in the Holocaust, I said that I wouldn't go to Germany. I know that most of the Germans who were alive and complicit in the killings are gone, but I read that significant anti-Jewish sentiments are still present.

Anti-Jewish feelings that have been pervasive for hundreds of years in Germany are hard to lose in a short time.

http://www.randomhouse.com/vintage/read/executioners/

However, I recently saw that Elderhostel has a Jewish-themed trip to Berlin and Dresden, which I would consider.

http://www.elderhostel.org/programs/...wId=1%2D33W6JT

Pvoyageuse

And after 59 posts, not a single comment about the non-Jews who also died in concentration camps in Germany. I find it amazing.

Jed

This is a very focused and intensely personal topic. There are many other facets (gays, other countries, US actions, other genocides, etc.) that could be discussed but were not 'commented' on.

Michael

Schuler,

<i>We are a bit wary of the Jews as a group because of their flair to make money, their different religious ways and our sense of guilt due to their persecutions. We are also wary of the Islams because of their different religious practices and cultural differences. We are also wary of the many African blacks coming into Switzerland because they look so different and we aren't familiar with their cultures and religious beliefs. We have many people from Sri Lanka living in Switzerland but they are well-liked because they are hard workers, friendly and cause no problems.</i>

You need to see <i>Bread and Chocolate</i> (again?), and look behind the humor.

Gardyloo

I'm glad this is getting a thorough and civil discussion. Hasn't always been the case in the past.

IMO it's largely a generational thing. My wife is the daughter of German and Austrian Jews who fled Hitler (in dramatic fashion) and she, as were they, is disinclined to visit Germany or Austria. She's been, and would go again if pressed, but it's far from her first choice. Frankly, an hour or two at Yad Vashem in Jerusalem will make you think twice.

But our son, and Jews of his generation, don't have such qualms about visiting Germany and Austria (or Poland, Ukraine, etc.) and I suspect it's because the holocaust and WW2 era was less personal for our generation than for our parents', and we didn't talk about it as much with our kids as our parents did with us.

I'm sure the same goes for German/Austrian people of the same generation. WW2 era people - big problem, guilt, etc. Their children - &quot;Wasn't us&quot; generation. Their children - ancient history.

The admonition to &quot;never forget&quot; is important and must be preserved. But it is not the same as saying &quot;never forgive.&quot;

orangetravelcat

It has been so interesting reading all these responses to my original post. I did not lose any relatives to the Holocaust, although if my dad had stayed in Poland, I probably wouldn't be here today.