Feel funny asking this, but as a Jew, do you feel "funny" visiting Germany?
Jul 13th, 2007, 03:16 PM
#23
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We were in Holland this May & were surprised by many comments & actions that basically added up to the following:
1. Many of the Dutch are very appreciative & receptive to Americans. Even some of the post-WWII generations expressed their knowledge of & appreciation for the US's big part in "liberating" them from the Germans.
2. Many of the Dutch (especially in the smaller towns closer to Germany) expressed their dislike for Germany & Germans. They are still angry about the invasion & occupation of their country & the atrocities committed.
So, it is obvious that not only the Jewish folks have problems dealing with the WWII past.
We each have our own answer regarding whether to visit the ghosts of the past. Good luck & happy travels.
Julie
1. Many of the Dutch are very appreciative & receptive to Americans. Even some of the post-WWII generations expressed their knowledge of & appreciation for the US's big part in "liberating" them from the Germans.
2. Many of the Dutch (especially in the smaller towns closer to Germany) expressed their dislike for Germany & Germans. They are still angry about the invasion & occupation of their country & the atrocities committed.
So, it is obvious that not only the Jewish folks have problems dealing with the WWII past.
We each have our own answer regarding whether to visit the ghosts of the past. Good luck & happy travels.
Julie
Jul 13th, 2007, 03:31 PM
#24
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At its peak, the Nazi party represented about 10% of the German population. There were many sympathizers, to be sure - as well as many who wished the Jews ill - but most of the people wanted nothing to do with carrying out the <i>Endlösung</i>.
A truly revealing history of the time is Arthur Morse's <u>While Six Million Died</u>, in which the intransigence of the entire free world to save European Jewry is laid out in all its sordid detail.
A truly revealing history of the time is Arthur Morse's <u>While Six Million Died</u>, in which the intransigence of the entire free world to save European Jewry is laid out in all its sordid detail.
Jul 13th, 2007, 04:03 PM
#26
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I know a woman who lived in Germany during that time, she said her whole village knew what was happening but were either afraid to do something or thinking better them than me. She would watch the box cars go out at night and knew all too well what was in them.
I'm not Jewish but I can empathize with those not wanting to visit, it may be too soon for these living generations on both sides, some of whom were there.
I'm not Jewish but I can empathize with those not wanting to visit, it may be too soon for these living generations on both sides, some of whom were there.
Jul 13th, 2007, 04:20 PM
#27
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My grandmother would turn in her grave if I went. My cousin has...resigned herself to transfer flights in Frankfurt and that's IT.
For years I didn't want to go because my entire family died (just like everyone else's on this thread), but now I'd like to go and see if I can't find the graves of those from the 19th century.
For years I didn't want to go because my entire family died (just like everyone else's on this thread), but now I'd like to go and see if I can't find the graves of those from the 19th century.
Jul 13th, 2007, 04:21 PM
#28
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Thank you, everyone, who has replied. I know my husband would really enjoy the Mercedes and Porsche museums, so I want to go on this trip in May, although I think, in the back of my mind, I, too, will wonder, when I see elderly people, if they were "one of them". My husband, by the way, is not Jewish.
Jul 13th, 2007, 04:38 PM
#29
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I a not jewish, but I was never comfortable during my visits to Germany. I know the people of Germany are great and the country is beautiful but it is not a country that I am comfortable visiting.
Jul 13th, 2007, 05:08 PM
#30
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It's quite obvious that many of the posters here have no idea how humans and groups work. I'm not saying I have, but I believe I'm aware of what you can make people do. Killings and mass murders are rather easy to organize, unfortunately. You can be either victim or culprit or both.
Jul 13th, 2007, 05:24 PM
#31
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I have mixed feelings about Germany, even though I'm not Jewish and have visited the country a half-dozen times or so.
In 1983, I went to what was then East Germany and was absolutely horrified by The Wall (and the soldiers at Checkpoint Charlie, who were absolutely stereotypical Aryan monsters) and the utter repression of that country by comparison to what was then West Germany. Oh, the stories I could tell you! But it was a time when Germans weren't much enlightened as to how to deal with the atrocities their country had comitted and everything was very hush hush. In subsequent visits I detected a willingness to be open and even apologetic, and that was comforting - but I'll admit I still don't much like the country or the people. I honestly (and this is going to sound very prejudiced in its own way) think they as an ethnic group have a predisposition to being selfish, obsessive, in-your-face, and aggressive. There, I've said it. I've witnessed too many groups of them on holiday in other countries, as well as in their own country, not to be able to feel otherwise. That said, I've enjoyed aspects of trips to Germany and have encountered many a friendly and helpful German.
Dachau made me weep.
In 1983, I went to what was then East Germany and was absolutely horrified by The Wall (and the soldiers at Checkpoint Charlie, who were absolutely stereotypical Aryan monsters) and the utter repression of that country by comparison to what was then West Germany. Oh, the stories I could tell you! But it was a time when Germans weren't much enlightened as to how to deal with the atrocities their country had comitted and everything was very hush hush. In subsequent visits I detected a willingness to be open and even apologetic, and that was comforting - but I'll admit I still don't much like the country or the people. I honestly (and this is going to sound very prejudiced in its own way) think they as an ethnic group have a predisposition to being selfish, obsessive, in-your-face, and aggressive. There, I've said it. I've witnessed too many groups of them on holiday in other countries, as well as in their own country, not to be able to feel otherwise. That said, I've enjoyed aspects of trips to Germany and have encountered many a friendly and helpful German.
Dachau made me weep.
Jul 13th, 2007, 05:40 PM
#32
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My husband and I have never been to Germany except for an overnight to Frankfurt for an early flight back to the US the following day.
We stayed at a very nice resort outside of Frankfurt. We arrived late because of flight delays and hadn't had anything to eat. The lounge area of the hotel was open. I ordered a sandwich. Husband wanted a ham and cheese sandwich. Waiter told him he could have a ham sandwich but the chef wouldn't add cheese. They had cheese but the chef could not add a slice of cheese.
The resort offered a free shuttle service to the airport. We were told the shuttle was filled for the time slot we wanted. We ended up paying for a taxi to the airport.
Each time we've been in Europe, there have been Germans in line with us. All have pushed their way to the front of the line.
That's left us with a very negative feeling for not wanting to visit Germany.
We stayed at a very nice resort outside of Frankfurt. We arrived late because of flight delays and hadn't had anything to eat. The lounge area of the hotel was open. I ordered a sandwich. Husband wanted a ham and cheese sandwich. Waiter told him he could have a ham sandwich but the chef wouldn't add cheese. They had cheese but the chef could not add a slice of cheese.
The resort offered a free shuttle service to the airport. We were told the shuttle was filled for the time slot we wanted. We ended up paying for a taxi to the airport.
Each time we've been in Europe, there have been Germans in line with us. All have pushed their way to the front of the line.
That's left us with a very negative feeling for not wanting to visit Germany.
Jul 13th, 2007, 05:47 PM
#33
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I know it is a biblical ethic to "forgive" and to "move on", but that is not a universal concept. In many cultures a wrong to a family, or a people, is to be met with hatred, suspicion, and revenge, for generations.
I for one cannot condemn anyone who's relatives were killed by the Germans, Japanese, North Koreans, or Muslims, that continues to hate. The Jihadists still swear vengeance for the Crusades.
To ability to forgive, while to be admired, is still an individual choice, not a requirement.
I for one cannot condemn anyone who's relatives were killed by the Germans, Japanese, North Koreans, or Muslims, that continues to hate. The Jihadists still swear vengeance for the Crusades.
To ability to forgive, while to be admired, is still an individual choice, not a requirement.
Jul 13th, 2007, 06:53 PM
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I felt very strange and uncomfortable seeing the huge stadium in Nuremberg where Hitler held all those rallies. But if we're going to talk about Germany, let's include Austria as well. No comment on whether or not I'm Jewish: does it matter? What happened before and during WWII affected everyone.
Jul 13th, 2007, 07:54 PM
#36
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nukesafe, Respect your post and thoughts. However wanted to add perhaps a minor point: forgiveness and "moving on" is a biblical ethic. Agreed. It is also the basic tenet of almost all prominent religions on the planet (islam included... despite the impressions one occasionally gets from the media... by the way, I am not a muslim although I did have the privilege of growing up in a vibrant, multicultural society). If you scratch the surface, they are all similar.
Of course we agree in that one can't condemn anyone for their feelings, whose relatives were killed by others. That said, let's not confuse the sheer human emotions one feels in attempting to relate while witnessing disasters with something else. Plenty of examples above (see Cimbrone's post).
Thank you.
Of course we agree in that one can't condemn anyone for their feelings, whose relatives were killed by others. That said, let's not confuse the sheer human emotions one feels in attempting to relate while witnessing disasters with something else. Plenty of examples above (see Cimbrone's post).
Thank you.
Jul 13th, 2007, 08:37 PM
#37
Hearing the announcements in German at the Salzburg train station gave us the willies, but the monument to WWII soldiers with those helmets we recognized from newsreels and films really gave us pause.
There is great physical beauty in regions of the country, particularly Bavaria, I thought, but I have never felt a great sense of ease in the few days I've spent there.
One close friend is the child of two Auschwitz survivors and another's father was sneaked out of Germany in a laundry basket, the rest of the family decimated. Perhaps I over-identify with them, but other than possibly going to see Berlin, I am unlikely to return.
There is great physical beauty in regions of the country, particularly Bavaria, I thought, but I have never felt a great sense of ease in the few days I've spent there.
One close friend is the child of two Auschwitz survivors and another's father was sneaked out of Germany in a laundry basket, the rest of the family decimated. Perhaps I over-identify with them, but other than possibly going to see Berlin, I am unlikely to return.
Jul 13th, 2007, 09:42 PM
#38
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I am a daughter of Holocaust survivors. I grew up listening to my father's horror stories of a concentration camp and watching the hair on his arms stand up straight. My mother still talks about the hunger. I have never met 2/3 of my family members, including grandparents, who perished. I have no intention of ever forgetting or forgiving anyone for depriving me of a family and my father of a good night's sleep. I will never go to Germany. Anna
Jul 13th, 2007, 10:07 PM
#39
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Hello orangetravelcat. I am older than a lot of other Fodorites.
I remember WWII..and the newsreels when my parents took me to the movies when I was a little girl. My parents talked a lot about the war as we had so many relatives fighting in the European Theater and the Pacific Theater.
But what did me in was when I was about ten years old. As usual a couple of girl friends and I went to the movie theater on a Saturday afternoon. Unknown to the public a movie..more than a newsreel.. played before the cartoons and the double feature.
It showed the concentration camps, the Jews, those barely alive and the thousands of corpses.
A picture is worth more than a thousand words.
I was horrified (even though I had been told about what had happened to our Jewish brethen). I never said a word to my parents when I returned home..my mistake no doubt..but children often keep feelings to themselves.
To this day I shudder and feel sick when I think of my experience that long ago day in the movie theater. That movie is still a nightmare to me..but I remind myself it is nothing compared to the nightmare the people that lived or died went through.
My paternal grandfather fled Germany before WWI and mananged to get to the US. Although he could have he refused to return to his homeland. He had relatives that were Nazi's..a shame he took to the grave with him..a shame I still feel although of course I and he had nothing to do with what his relatives did. . But a shame that will be with me forever as it was with my precious and loving grandfather. I have known survivors of the Holocaust..I to this day do not know how those brave and beautiful people survived the hell they went through. I honor their courage and strength.
No, I could never bring myself to visit Germany. I have flown over Germany and looked down at the physical beauty of Germany..the green vibrant forest etc. But all I could think of is the terror and horror that took place in that country.
I remember WWII..and the newsreels when my parents took me to the movies when I was a little girl. My parents talked a lot about the war as we had so many relatives fighting in the European Theater and the Pacific Theater.
But what did me in was when I was about ten years old. As usual a couple of girl friends and I went to the movie theater on a Saturday afternoon. Unknown to the public a movie..more than a newsreel.. played before the cartoons and the double feature.
It showed the concentration camps, the Jews, those barely alive and the thousands of corpses.
A picture is worth more than a thousand words.
I was horrified (even though I had been told about what had happened to our Jewish brethen). I never said a word to my parents when I returned home..my mistake no doubt..but children often keep feelings to themselves.
To this day I shudder and feel sick when I think of my experience that long ago day in the movie theater. That movie is still a nightmare to me..but I remind myself it is nothing compared to the nightmare the people that lived or died went through.
My paternal grandfather fled Germany before WWI and mananged to get to the US. Although he could have he refused to return to his homeland. He had relatives that were Nazi's..a shame he took to the grave with him..a shame I still feel although of course I and he had nothing to do with what his relatives did. . But a shame that will be with me forever as it was with my precious and loving grandfather. I have known survivors of the Holocaust..I to this day do not know how those brave and beautiful people survived the hell they went through. I honor their courage and strength.
No, I could never bring myself to visit Germany. I have flown over Germany and looked down at the physical beauty of Germany..the green vibrant forest etc. But all I could think of is the terror and horror that took place in that country.
Jul 13th, 2007, 10:17 PM
#40
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I'm not Jewish but I have the greatest horror and compassion about what happened in the Hitler years, but to refuse to go visit an entire country some 60 years later because of what a group of people did there somehow seems totally absurd to me. Who is being punished by that?
I suppose all true Americans should never go to to any country which has opposed us in war either? Boy, that narrows down travel choices a lot, doesn't it?
I suppose all true Americans should never go to to any country which has opposed us in war either? Boy, that narrows down travel choices a lot, doesn't it?
