PixieGal

Janisj, I was just looking at this summer's rates to get an idea. I don't know £ from €, but my point was, I couldn't find any triples, and even the doubles were over £115, which is... about $135? And those are the more inexpensive options?

kja

English is widely spoken throughout Europe, so no, language should not be a problem. If it helps reassure you, note that in the unlikely event that you find yourselves somewhere where people are reluctant to speak English (for example, some older people in rural areas, might not want to risk mispronunciation), spoken language is rarely needed for basics -- if you show up at a hotel, they are likely to understand that you want a room, etc. And although I don't have a smart phone, I believe there are many translation apps that people find useful. IME, most people in the European tourism industry gave up the hope that Americans would try to learn their language decades ago.

That said, knowing a few civilities in each language (hello, thank you, etc.) will go a VERY long way to making your trip more pleasant, and IME, people will appreciate ANY effort you make to say even a few words in their language.

As for cars... while there are some day trips that may seem a bit easier with a car, public transportation is so good throughout Europe that it is, IME, the very rare place for which you would require a car. And in those cases, if it's really a place worth visiting, there are likely to be day trip tours that you can arrange in advance on the internet or, once there, at your hotel or the local tourist information office. And "easier" is relative -- driving can be stressful, you would need to find parking, adjust to local driving rules and norms, get to/from the rental agency, fill the tank and perhaps get a car wash before returning it, etc. A train or bus might seem a bit less convenient if you look at just one or two considerations, but once you consider all the things involved, if a train or bus goes where you want to go, it really is often the best choice. Too, with the kind of trip you are planning, you have such a wealth of options that in honesty, I have trouble imaging a place obscure enough for you to find it necessary to have a car AND to find it so much more worthy of a visit than anything else in the area that it would be worth the time and cost to do so. I could be wrong....

Train SCHEDULES may come out only 4 months or so in advance, but general (if subject-to-change) information about train frequencies and durations are readily available at any time. They are routinely covered in some guidebooks (like the Rough Guide) and can be estimated by rome2rio.com. So although you might not be able to discover the EXACT schedule for trains on some particular day 9 months from now, you can probably learn that there are 5 trains between X and Y, taking from 3 to 4 hours each, or there are trains roughly hourly, taking 30 to 40 minutes, or whatever. I've always found that level of information sufficient for preliminary planning -- and I'm a planner! And as several people have already noted, seat61.com is THE definitive resource for trains in Europe. Use it!

Hope that helps!

janisj

I did a quick search w/ random dates this summer and found triples at Rosebury Hall - could not find others because they are sold out for this year so they are not displaying all the other options. My point was - next year's availability won't show so you can't know if they have triples or not (they do BTW - I've stayed in more than one myself)

$135 is VERY cheap for a triple room in London and these are actual apartments w/ a living room and kitchen. Plus the rates include a full cooked breakfast.

Re your proposed itinerary -- think in terms of nights - not days. To get 4 days in a city requires 5 nights, 3 days = 4 nights and so on.

bilboburgler

As others have said

use a tool like rome2rio to get ideas about how to do a journey. You click through to find the detail timetable they are using. Public transport in Europe is very good and goes where you want to go to, private transport is actually not as good for many things.

In the UK use http://www.traveline.info/ this links up all (yes all) the public transport in the country so you can plan well. Within the cities there are also local apps that allow you to do even more detailed planning and even real time bus movements.

London; use http://www.yha.org.uk/ (you may even be a member of a sister organisation) but these hostels are pretty good (very much of the old walking tradition), and right in the action in London.

bilboburgler

Languages; you will be amased but across a lot of Europe train ticket sales people will speak English, not just at international airports but at major stations (English is the lingua franca). However ticket inspectors may not (still there will normally be people who can help around).

In the Netherlands, Denmark and western Germany you will find English is spoken extremely well just about everywhere. In France it will be too (but). In all these countries courtesy is everything but especially in France, so learn the basics
good morning, good afternoon, good bye and use them in hotels, shops, restaurants etc. If you do so you will have no problems. Don't worry your accent will tell them that you arn't local I don't speak German and I holiday there regularly and never had a problem.

massimop

Maybe it would help if you stated what your max budget for the entire group trip is, including air fare, transportation in Europe, entrance fees to attractions, bike or car rentals, food, shopping. (Sorry if I missed it - I didn't read every post)

StCirq

Renting a car for a daytrip is a horrible idea. For one thing, a single-day rental always costs about the same as a 3-day rental. For another, if a daytrip cannot be arranged by a simple, cheap train (or bus) trip, it's not worth it.

You do need to start thinking in terms of euros, not US dollars.

massimop

Also, clarifying one more time: It doesn't make sense to spend money every day to travel away from city centers & touristy neighborhoods in search of "vistas and views" & "more cultural experiences & fewer touristy things" Likewise, it doesn't make sense to spend money traveling TO the central tourist attractions of a big city if that is why you are choosing these cities. Then you take the money you would end up spending on train fares twice a day for 3 and apply it to higher hotel cost.

Minor note about the Netherlands: Not only is the public transportation network superb, but cities like Utrecht have a night life and cafe life to rival Amsterdam's and many would say surpasses it for the beauty of the canal scene. Not saying don't go to Amsterdam, but taking seriously some of the things you said in your first post about what kinds of experiences you're seeking as the main thrust of your trip

http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel...85292fa1960eb0

jamikins

This is how I always lay out my travels, noting that 3 nights = 2 full days and travel days on either side.

Day 1 - Flight from North America
Day 2 – Land in London, get to hotel, leftover time to explore
Day 3 – London
Day 4 – London
Day 5 – London
Day 6 – Travel London to Scotland (where in Scotland – it is a whole country)
Day 7 – Scotland
Day 8 – Scotland
Day 9 – Scotland
Day 10 – Travel Scotland to Paris
Day 11 – Paris
Day 12 – Paris
Day 13 – Travel Paris to Netherlands (several locations)
Day 14 – Netherlands
Day 15 – Netherlands
Day 16 – Netherlands
Day 17 – Netherlands
Day 18 – Netherlands
Day 19 – Netherlands
Day 20 – Travel Netherlands to Poland (where in Poland?)
Day 21 – Poland
Day 22 – Poland
Day 23 – Travel Poland to Vienna
Day 24 – Vienna
Day 25 – Vienna
Day 26 – Vienna
Day 27 – Vienna
Day 28 – Travel Vienna to Munich
Day 29 – Munich
Day 30 – Munich
Day 31 – Fly home via Munich

This way you can see how much time you actually get in a place.

I hope this helps!

massimop

also, great that your daughter is following along and giving you feedback. I'm sure at the end of the whole process your ideas about the trip will change many times, back and forth, and back again, and nobody (not me for sure) is holding you to your first post or itinerary. Some people have very strong views about "must-dos" for others while in Europe, in this city or that, and will tell you there is "no point" to going to X city unless you do X Y or Z. But stick to your guns if you don't want a trip that is a tourist check-list, or absolutely change your mind about diving into the famous sites of Europe's most visited cities.

Getting the best deal on air travel might have a lot to do with how you order your trip. Sometimes what looks like the most obvious landing spot, moving west to east, isn't the cheapest or even the most efficient. Again, devil/details about your personal situation.

thursdaysd

If you want to include Scotland as well as London you should start there. Fly into Edinburgh or Glasgow, even if it means changing planes in London. Then take the train to London, possibly the night train, which will be a fun experience and save a hotel night.

https://www.seat61.com/CaledonianSleepers.htm

You should spend quite a bit of time on that site, it has everything you need to know about train travel in the UK and Europe. I would also recommend buying the "Thomas Cook Rail Map of Europe". You need a paper map to get a real idea of where everything is, and this lets you see how to connect places. That's in addition to the introductory guidebooks I recommended early in this thread.

I would skip Poland, unless you have a special reason for going there. Innsbruck is in Austria, not Germany. It would give you a cheaper look at beautiful mountains than going to Switzerland, and fits well between Munich and Vienna. If you drop Poland you can go Munich - Innsbruck - Vienna, fly home from Vienna.

massimop

If your trip is beginning in late May/early June, and you are going to Scotland for scenery instead of big cities, then I would not put Scotland at the top of the trip. I might put it nearer the end.

Innsbruck is a city, so if you don't want cities, Munich-Innsbruck-Vienna would be 3 in a row.

Poland is the cheapest destination on your list and -- depending where you go in the other countries and where you go in Poland -- possibly the least changed by tourism.

thursdaysd

If Innsbruck is a city, it is a small one, nothing like Munich or Vienna. It is also an excellent base for day trips. My first visit included trips to the Stubai glacier, up the Zillerthal by steam train, and up one of the mountains ringing the city by cable car.

The OP could certainly start in the east and move west, but it is usually easier for a first timer to start in the UK, and at the very end of May the weather shouldn't be that bad.

Poland may be cheap, but it is still a geographic outlier, and hardly worth the time and expense of getting there just for three or four nights.

Helen_N

Hello,
Having grown up in Scotland and now living near London (and visited most places on your wish list) here's my humble opinion:

London is a good place to start. You will need 3 days/4 nights. There are cheaper areas than the city - check train links as you can get accommodation somewhere around London and be a 15-20 minute train ride into one of the central stations. That way you can experience some countryside too. Eg stay St Albans in Hertfordshire, and travel into London for sightseeing etc.

Scotland - easy train ride to Edinburgh from London. I would suggest 2 days in Edinburgh. It is a beautiful city. You can get the train across the Forth into Fife and visit St Andrews for a day perhaps, fantastic beaches (Chariots of Fire filmed here) and the home of golf. Note, train station nearest is Leuchers (pron. Loo-kers) but there a quick bus to St Andrews down the road.
NB I grew up in Fife, honestly there is no point trying to aim for the best weather month. It does not exist. May can be better than July, any time between May/June/July is your best bet but take your rain coat!

Paris; amazing city, must do! Try to at least say please and thank you in French! They can be a tricky bunch (husband is from Paris and he agrees!). Starting with "parlez-vous Anglais?" helps rather than just addressing in English.

Amsterdam; great city, full of great cultural experiences. Anne Frank's house is good but always rammed with people so go early. Museums are great in Amsterdam too.

Germany - I liked Berlin best for a city. I am currently in a lovely place called Rothenburg Ob Der Tauber which is beautiful if it fits with your itinerary. Munich is good too - personally I did prefer Berlin tho. I am off to Heidelberg tomorrow which looks stunning.

Austria; I mention because if you go to Munich than it is not too far and gorgeous! It is a town but really quaint and beautiful and on the water with mountains as a backdrop so it's lovely. Also, as someone else mentioned you get the lovely Alps without having to pay the Swiss prices (which are so much higher than in Austria).

Denmark; sorry never been but I do know it is not cheap!

Booking-wise I use Booking.com a lot. They price match and are very reliable etc. We are currently on a 3 week driving tour of Europe and I found it great to have most of my bookings in their app with all the info together. Kept me sane.

Book cheap flights within Europe (easy jet etc) either a year or about 4 months before travel. They keep them high around the 6 month mark, then drop them if they aren't sold, then up again about 1-2 months before again. Multi-booking with easy jet saves on an admit cost which is levied per booking. So get organised and do them all in one go to save pennies.
Trains should be booked as early as possible to get best prices.
I would personally book everything ahead as it often saves money and as importantly valuable time as you will be on a whirlwind tour.

Hope this helps, happy holidays.

Helen

dwdvagamundo

PixieGal has dropped Poland and Vienna in her latest itinerary.

Otherwise, concur with thursdaysd about flying into or out of Scotland rather than London (if you pick up on Massimop's suggestion to finish in Scotland.)

Massimop, the population of Innsbruck is around 130,000, not nearly the size of the other cities. We stayed in a little village west of Innsbruck proper. Can't remember the name, but it was very convenient--but we had a car.

Pixie, you might want to think about a car for a few nites in places like Germany and Scotland.

dwdvagamundo

Posted without knowing that Helen had addressed most of my concerns. Sorry.

We didn't visit the Anne Frank house in Amsterdam, but did visit the Corrie ten Boom house in Haarlem--there were four people total on our tour.

And concur with those above that you will have no language difficulties unless you get quite far off the beaten tourist track. Do learn some polite phrases in French and German, however, particularly French.

And I concur heartily with Helen in booking very far ahead. If you wait, all the inexpensive places (well, relatively inexpensive places, will be booked) and transportation will be expensive.

janisj

Lots of good advice from Nelen_N.

But I do have to disagree w/ >>Eg stay St Albans in Hertfordshire, and travel into London for sightseeing etc<<

The daily train fares will add quite a bit to that 'cheap' accommodation. Plus it can be really inconvenient to be that far from your hotel while sightseeing. If you need to return to the hotel during the day -- lots of potential reasons: to drop off shopping, you got caught in a downpour and need to change shoes or clothes, to freshen up after a day of sightseeing before going out to the theatre or club . . . If you are 45 mins from 'home' you can't do that. A Cheap day return ticket is £12.30 ($17) and double that if you need to travel in/out twice.

MUCH better IMO/IME to add that nearly $20 to your hotel budget and stay in zone 1 (or at least no further out than zone 2)

bilboburgler

Good above,
Denmark; has its own state hostel system, heavily underused and over subsidised. Great deals so use them. Copenhagen is the expensive place, most other cities are more reasonable and there are also B&Bs that work out well. In Copenhagen we stayed in one of the Cabinn (note cabin and inn) type hotels, very small clean rooms, not cheap but much cheaper than trad hotels in town.

fuzzbucket

The vacation rental inventory in Paris will probably be severely diminished by next year.

Owners have to apply for an online registration number, which is tied to their tax information, and must appear on internet websites - otherwise they will be blocked out.

It's very doubtful that you could find 3 actual bedrooms in one apartment - and not even in the same building - not in the budget category, anyway.

You could try Citadines or Adagio, which do sleep 3 or more, and are legal apartments with kitchens.

Or, you could take a look at Ibis, Accor and Mercure chain hotels. You might like to take connecting rooms, to have 2 bathrooms.

I go to London every year, and find it's much more expensive than Paris.

annhig

Then take the train to London, possibly the night train, which will be a fun experience and save a hotel night.>>

if you're lucky, you might even catch an opera premiere:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...tland-40713755